Toronto - Delta Airlines CRJ-900 upside down, Flight 4819 from Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport (MSP) to Toronto

dtuuri said:
"...blew away your ground effect"?
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That's what the captain told me when I pranged it. I guess it has to do with this;

"Crosswind/shear can modify the trajectories of vortices, cause lateral drift, and precipitate their degeneration, leading to non-parallel rebound, vortex tilting, unequal decay of port/starboard vortices (even leaving only a single vortex!). For single runways, cross wind is the most desirable atmospheric occurrence to have the vortices blown away from the landing path. But it is not controllable."

From: "A Critical Review of the Transport and Decay of Wake Vortices in Ground Effect"
 
dmspilot said:
I was starting from the taxiway intersection so you went back farther. You are probably right but like you said it's hard to tell.

It does appear they may have been high on short final, crossing in front of the Lear at 55-60 feet vs. standard threshold crossing height (which would be slightly behind them by that point) of 50 feet. That could be why they lowered the nose just before/over the threshold.
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That foots with what I’m getting. They went from about 55 feet (directly past the lear window pillar, using the taxiway centerline for reference) to about 45 feet over the DT in about 0.6 seconds. That in itself is 1000fpm, but we’re dealing with back of napkin numbers (lots of “about”). One foot, one tenth of a second changes the math. But looking at multiple measures, it’s in that ballpark.

I’m interested in how high they were before they put the nose down, but that angle is harder to work with.
 
Has anyone wondered why a presumably first officer or co pilot, holding short on the departing runway, who's most certainly had a front row view of perhaps hundreds, maybe thousands of CRJs landing, decided to pull his phone out and record this one? How bad were the conditions and what did things look like on the approach?

Also note the little cloud. What visual distraction did it offer the crew? Did the "bump on the glide slope" refer to turbulence reported by prior landing traffic?
 
Flying Keys said:
That’s what I’m getting - 1100fpm. It looks like it crosses the DT at about 45’, established in the final descent angle, and it’s roughly 2.5 seconds from there to impact with no discernible rate of change.
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So roughly double the certification requirement of 10 fps at touchdown, although that would be max landing weight.

It’s also “juuuuust a bit outside” of most companies’ definitions that I’ve seen for “stable.”
 
JimLAFB said:
That's what the captain told me when I pranged it. I guess it has to do with this;

"Crosswind/shear can modify the trajectories of vortices, cause lateral drift, and precipitate their degeneration, leading to non-parallel rebound, vortex tilting, unequal decay of port/starboard vortices (even leaving only a single vortex!). For single runways, cross wind is the most desirable atmospheric occurrence to have the vortices blown away from the landing path. But it is not controllable."

From: "A Critical Review of the Transport and Decay of Wake Vortices in Ground Effect"
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From a impartial observer From: "A Critical Review of the Transport and Decay of Wake Vortices in Ground Effect"
I see Wake and think I'm open to the wrong page.
 
Brad Z said:
Has anyone wondered why a presumably first officer or co pilot, holding short on the departing runway, who's most certainly had a front row view of perhaps hundreds, maybe thousands of CRJs landing, decided to pull his phone out and record this one? How bad were the conditions and what did things look like on the approach?....
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we don't know that he doesn't film every plane that lands in front of him. but how many normal landings can one post? this one is ever so slightly different than your average plane landing and may be of interest to some people.
 
1.) We’re going to have some interesting reading come next February.
2.) Superstitious folls say bad things come in threes, I won’t be riding on a CRJ anytime soon.
 
eman1200 said:
we don't know that he doesn't film every plane that lands in front of him. but how many normal landings can one post? this one is ever so slightly different than your average plane landing and may be of interest to some people.
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If he's posting videos of normal landings in portrait like he did on this one he deserves to be stripped of his job and possibly serve jail time.
 
NorthEast Ohio said:

The analysis we’ve all been waiting for.
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Not me. Brown just reads news reports and press releases from authorities, shows clips of data from FR24, and the rest of the videos are of interest only to those that don't fly. His analysis rehashes the obvious facts, then proceeds with an explanation of flying that a 100 hour student should know. A 16½ minute video about an RJ slamming into a runway is tedious to the extreme.
 
Is it possible to fly this plane into the ground with the AP on?
 
Hugh Despenser said:
Yes.

The GPWS makes those calls.
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OK. Between that and the fact that it does not look like a full overcast, I'm no longer thinking flat light had anything to do with this.
n1g1a said:
I'm just putting this out there, could this be a right main landing gear failure?
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Well, it certainly failed, but it looks like it failed because they dropped an RJ on it. No visible flare.
Brad Z said:
Has anyone wondered why a presumably first officer or co pilot, holding short on the departing runway, who's most certainly had a front row view of perhaps hundreds, maybe thousands of CRJs landing, decided to pull his phone out and record this one? How bad were the conditions and what did things look like on the approach?
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That's definitely weird to me. At first I thought it had been shot from an airport operations vehicle. But a pilot shooting the landing of an RJ? That doesn't seem even close to remarkable enough to take video of for any pilot.
 
Brad Z said:
Has anyone wondered why a presumably first officer or co pilot, holding short on the departing runway, who's most certainly had a front row view of perhaps hundreds, maybe thousands of CRJs landing, decided to pull his phone out and record this one?
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I would remove the “most certainly” part, and be more likely to guess that this was a newbie with not much more jet time than it took to get a 61.55 endorsement.
 
Chris Mixon said:
I was wondering when the high-quality footage would start appearing. I'm of two minds. First, the ubiquity of high-resolution video these days from doorbells to mobile phones means we get very detailed information quickly. Second, thank God this didn't exist when I was younger and stupider than I am now!

I guess I am not an expert because, until the very last second, when the flame erupted, I thought that approach looked pretty normal. If I were about to land on a contaminated runway with blowing snow and a big crosswind component, I would be planning to "plant" it firmly myself. Also, from this angle, it didn't look like visibility was that poor...?
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I will join you in the not an expert bleachers. I only fly single engine or less aircraft. I didn't think it was that bad either, making me think this was in part a mechanical failure, perhaps prior damage to the aircraft coupled with a hard landing that otherwise would have been fine. I did think I saw a bit of an increase in descent just before touch down making me think perhaps wind gust (or lack of) coupled, perhaps with the expectation to set it down firmly or thinking they needed to get it on runway due to being a bit high and fast might have contributed.

Brian
 
dtuuri said:
Um, this bit about flaring... when the main gear is built far to the rear, I could name some rather big airlines that have advocated "rolling it on", i.e., nosing it over to decrease the force of the landing. Not that I like that philosophy, but it's out there.
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The 900 is compliant with that technique. I flew with some guys that thought it was the way. It either works out awesome or ugly as hell.

It was very prominent on the 727-200.

Can’t recall it on other airplanes I’ve flown.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
No. “Rolling it on” is attempting to make the smoothest landing possible. That is not the objective in this situation. You want weight on wheels and wheel spin up to get the spoilers up and autobrakes working asap so a firmer landing is desirable.
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I don’t think that’s quite how @dtuuri was using “roll it on.”
 
4RNB said:
Is it possible to fly this plane into the ground with the AP on?
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It is possible to fly any airplane into the ground on autopilot.

Princesspilot206 said:
Auto-land...possibly with minimums set incorrectly
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CRJs don't have autoland. Even if they did, they don't rely on baro-altitude. They work based on radar altitude.

mandm said:
So this is what happens if you forget to flair??
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Maybe.

Certification standards are that the airframe must withstand a landing at 600fpm when at, or below, the max landing weight. A 600fpm descent would track the 3° G/S at a ground speed of about 120kts. Any faster, and the descent rate would be greater. With the reported winds, and typical approach speeds, their ground speed would have been in the 120kt range, maybe a little higher.

Obviously, the airplane won't go from being fine at 600fpm to breaking at 601fpm. A small exceedance should not cause significant damage.

However, in September of 2023, an Alaska Airlines flight landed at SNA airport and had the left main gear strut poke up into the wing. It initially looked like a hard landing but the DFDR data showed that the landing was within tolerances. The trunnion pin failed under loads that were within certification limits.

We need the DFDR data to determine if the landing exceeded any of the airplane design limits. It could be pilot error or it could be a mechanical failure or it could be something else that we haven't considered. The limited information we have now is consistent with all of these possibilities.
 
3393RP said:
Not me. Brown just reads news reports and press releases from authorities, shows clips of data from FR24, and the rest of the videos are of interest only to those that don't fly. His analysis rehashes the obvious facts, then proceeds with an explanation of flying that a 100 hour student should know. A 16½ minute video about an RJ slamming into a runway is tedious to the extreme.
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Thought the same, what is Browns background as a pilot?

At least Gryder actually flew significant aircraft
 
Roller said:
Thought the same, what is Browns background as a pilot?

At least Gryder actually flew significant aircraft
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Found this online

“Juan Browne started his flying career as a teenager. He bought his first airplane when he was 15 years old, and has bought and sold dozens of airplanes since.

He earned his A&P license right after graduating high school, then attended college on a ROTC scholarship. After graduation, he was commissioned in the Air Force and attended Undergraduate Pilot Training (UPT) at Williams Air Force Base.

After UPT, Juan became a T-37 Instructor Pilot at Mather Air Force Base. His next assignment was flying the C-141, and he quickly rose to Aircraft Commander, flying all over the world, nonstop using air refueling.

He next flew C-130 aircraft with the Reno Air National Guard, and finally secured a job as an airline pilot.”

I believe he currently flies the 777 for American.

Is that as good as Gryder?
 
Wheels said:
Found this online

“Juan Browne started his flying career as a teenager. He bought his first airplane when he was 15 years old, and has bought and sold dozens of airplanes since.

He earned his A&P license right after graduating high school, then attended college on a ROTC scholarship. After graduation, he was commissioned in the Air Force and attended Undergraduate Pilot Training (UPT) at Williams Air Force Base.

After UPT, Juan became a T-37 Instructor Pilot at Mather Air Force Base. His next assignment was flying the C-141, and he quickly rose to Aircraft Commander, flying all over the world, nonstop using air refueling.

He next flew C-130 aircraft with the Reno Air National Guard, and finally secured a job as an airline pilot.”

I believe he currently flies the 777 for American.

Is that as good as Gryder?
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If he flys the 77 and also is active GA yes
 
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