Toronto - Delta Airlines CRJ-900 upside down, Flight 4819 from Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport (MSP) to Toronto

[PPC1052]

Does this count as a gear up landing?

 

[JimLAFB]

Hi Bill.

My theory? Based on 5500 hours total time on that airplane?

You can get so focused on crosswind correction and keeping the airplane on centerline, that you quite literally forget to flare.

Or your normal flare input doesn't work because the crosswind blew away your ground effect. I learned that the hard way in a DC-9.

 

[Randomskylane]

There is a lot of snow in the air in the video of the lading, no flare. I suspect that they misjudged their actual altitude. In the passenger deboarding, there were times with blowing snow.

The wing came off, and burst into flames where it was, the plane went on without that fire being connected to them, fortunately it severed completely.

I’m not understanding how the wing can come off like that. Is there a brittle metal piece connecting it? I guess I’d expect it to bend quite a bit instead

Maybe the tank had significant fuel?

 

[Bob Noel]

Navy carrier pilots don't need no flares.

wouldn't that be Navy carrier aviators...?

or have they stopped making that distinction?

 

[geezer]

The wing hit a substantial snow berm from plowing, might even have been icy or frozen. The wing simply stopped, the hull continued at a reduced speed.

 

[dtuuri]

Or your normal flare input doesn't work because the crosswind blew away your ground effect. I learned that the hard way in a DC-9.

"...blew away your ground effect"?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Somebody over at BeechTalk estimated 1800 ft/min based on geometry and timing from one of the videos.

 

[Larry in TN]

micro burst....

You need convective activity to have a microburst.

So were they unstable on the approach and pressed on? Too slow to be able to arrest the descent? Were they trying to setup for a "positive landing" for optimal traction and botched it?

The video from the airplane holding short of the runway looks stable. You'd arrest the descent with thrust if you didn't have the airspace to do it with pitch. A firm touchdown would be desired with a contaminated runway.

I heard "somewhere" that the CRJ was given a wake turbulence warning by ATC prior to landing ?

Most aircraft get a wake turbulence warning at large airports during a push. Nothing unusual there.

I'm just putting this out there, could this be a right main landing gear failure?

The question would be if such a failure was causal or if it was a result of the hard landing.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

You need convective activity to have a microburst.


The video from the airplane holding short of the runway looks stable. You'd arrest the descent with thrust if you didn't have the airspace to do it with pitch. A firm touchdown would be desired with a contaminated runway.


Most aircraft get a wake turbulence warning at large airports during a push. Nothing unusual there.


The question would be if such a failure was causal or if it was a result of the hard landing.

Alex…..I’ll take rogue winds for $1,000.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

You need convective activity to have a microburst.


The video from the airplane holding short of the runway looks stable. You'd arrest the descent with thrust if you didn't have the airspace to do it with pitch. A firm touchdown would be desired with a contaminated runway.


Most aircraft get a wake turbulence warning at large airports during a push. Nothing unusual there.


The question would be if such a failure was causal or if it was a result of the hard landing.

Alex…..I’ll take rogue winds for $1,000.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Oh? "Rolling it on" is essentially the same as a wheel landing in a tailwheel plane, which is used there in gusty conditions, no?

No. “Rolling it on” is attempting to make the smoothest landing possible. That is not the objective in this situation. You want weight on wheels and wheel spin up to get the spoilers up and autobrakes working asap so a firmer landing is desirable.

 

[Aceman]

Hi Bill.

My theory? Based on 5500 hours total time on that airplane?

You can get so focused on crosswind correction and keeping the airplane on centerline, that you quite literally forget to flare.

I see that in the landing. He came in at a good angle but never flared up for the back wheels to land first and the momentum was too high. That gear got crushed like a snowball. Once the right wing was off, the aerodynamics of the left wing/wind caused a roll rate to the right and it toppled over.

 

[Chris Mixon]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1891800990317191428

I was wondering when the high-quality footage would start appearing. I'm of two minds. First, the ubiquity of high-resolution video these days from doorbells to mobile phones means we get very detailed information quickly. Second, thank God this didn't exist when I was younger and stupider than I am now!

I guess I am not an expert because, until the very last second, when the flame erupted, I thought that approach looked pretty normal. If I were about to land on a contaminated runway with blowing snow and a big crosswind component, I would be planning to "plant" it firmly myself. Also, from this angle, it didn't look like visibility was that poor...?

 

[Tools]

If you can keep it straight on final, you can keep it straight on the runway… get there with as little trauma as possible and just keep doing what you’re doing. Then transition to the wheels’ friction.

Just slamming it on and hoping the wheels’ friction is gonna work results in this.

Keeping it straight on final results in a low wing, more reason to NOT slam it on, one wheel and main is gonna take all that weight.

It works with carrier planes (but we crab to the runway)… this I know, so I speak with the advantage of having flown both philosophies.

This guy didn’t flare. Don’t know why, but he didn’t. With those winds, should have been carrying enough extra speed so he positively could.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

You need convective activity to have a microburst.


The video from the airplane holding short of the runway looks stable. You'd arrest the descent with thrust if you didn't have the airspace to do it with pitch. A firm touchdown would be desired with a contaminated runway.


Most aircraft get a wake turbulence warning at large airports during a push. Nothing unusual there.


The question would be if such a failure was causal or if it was a result of the hard landing.

Alex…..I’ll take rogue winds for $1,000.

 

[Navypilot]

Or your normal flare input doesn't work because the crosswind blew away your ground effect. I learned that the hard way in a DC-9.

But nose doesn’t come up at all

 

[Navypilot]

But nose doesn’t come up at all

Lack of visual clues due snow on ground can make judging rate of decent a challenge

 

[Hugh Despenser]

One thing is for sure:

The NTSB has got to be running out of people.

 

[RyanShort1]

But nose doesn’t come up at all

If anything it ***looks*** like it went down a tad - which is what you'd do if you saw airspeed decaying.

 

[Flying Keys]

Most aircraft get a wake turbulence warning at large airports during a push. Nothing unusual there.

This is being widely misconstrued as such in the media. It was a vague warning that the glideslope signal was not protected due to an aircraft in the ILS critical area.

 

[bonefishpete]

Ok what do the pilots do now? Call their union? Give statements or keep quiet? Are they compelled to give statements? Confess all and hope for remedial training?

 

[Roller]

Regionals..

Wonder if he got distracted meowing on guard and that’s what caused him to forget to flair

Ok what do the pilots do now? Call their union? Give statements or keep quiet? Are they compelled to give statements? Confess all and hope for remedial training?

For something this big?

STFU (and tell the other pilot to do the same) and call a good FAA versed lawyer, ALL statements should come from your own lawyer or represents you and only you

Id also myself scarce, maybe take the vacation to some island

 

[Lindberg]

Ok what do the pilots do now? Call their union? Give statements or keep quiet? Are they compelled to give statements? Confess all and hope for remedial training?

Only Dan thinks failing to cooperate with an investigation in this situation would be a good idea.

 

[Roller]

Only Dan thinks failing to cooperate with an investigation in this situation would be a good idea.

Who’s Dan, and who thinks talking to the goverment is ever a good idea?

No lawyer or cop ever

You can “cooperate” through a lawyer

 

[Lindberg]

Here's a normal landing from a similar angle.

 

[Larry in TN]

Only Dan thinks failing to cooperate with an investigation in this situation would be a good idea.

You cooperate with the investigation under the guidance of your lawyer.

 

[dmspilot]

No. “Rolling it on” is attempting to make the smoothest landing possible. That is not the objective in this situation. You want weight on wheels and wheel spin up to get the spoilers up and autobrakes working asap so a firmer landing is desirable.

I believe dtuuri was talking about the "flare" technique of pushing the nose into the runway, which cushions the landing because the wheels are behind the center of lift.

 

[luvflyin]

One thing is for sure:

The NTSB has got to be running out of people.

Canada’s TSBC will be doing it. The NTSB will assist. How many bodies they assign to it I dunno.

 

[Daleandee]

Regionals..

Wonder if he got distracted meowing on guard and that’s what caused him to forget to flair

The lives of those pilots were literally turned upside down …

 

[Ed Haywood]

Looks to me like the nose pitches down and rate of descent increases just after it crosses the numbers. But that could just be the change in viewing angle.

 

[dmspilot]

Somebody over at BeechTalk estimated 1800 ft/min based on geometry and timing from one of the videos.

I'm getting 1000 to 1200fpm.

 

[dmspilot]

Looks to me like the nose pitches down and rate of descent increases just after it crosses the numbers. But that could just be the change in viewing angle.

I don't see a change in pitch. The pitch looks darn near 0° the whole way.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Here's a normal landing from a similar angle.

700 lands a bit more nose down than the 900 does. I don't see how anyone thinks thats a 1000+ fpm impact. Unless they get real creative at the last second, they'd be doing around 750fpm. Sure, the technique here is going to be an issue, but I'd venture to guess there's more to the story than we've seen.

 

[dmspilot]

Not buying the windshear or other arguments. Occam's razor...the pilots simply misjudged their flare height/descent rate. It's easier to mess up than you think.

Had there not been a crosswind and both mains touched at the same time, this would have been more like the 767 incident:


Despite what half of men think, landing a plane is somewhat difficult.

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/4349573-men-think-they-can-safely-land-a-plane-in-an-emergency/

 

[bflynn]

I'm thinking of the Alaska Airlines flight a year and a half ago - possible corrosion on the main gear, firm landing and the gear goes through the wing. Wing drops, drags, and departs the plane, possibly after encountering a snow bank. Continue with left wing rolling the plane over.

This is what makes the most sense, the main gear through the wing isn't unheard of. I don't see any rolling of the plane before that, just a firm landing.

 

[Flying Keys]

I don't see a change in pitch. The pitch looks darn near 0° the whole way.

It looks to me like as it crosses the AER 23 threshold, prior to crossing the lear’s window pillar, it starts to go from nose up to flat. That change ends as it crosses the displaced threshold, which is almost immediately to the front and right of the lear’s position, basically center camera, just to the right of the pillar. In all, a little over 2 seconds.

The off-axis, crossing perspective can mess with this, though, so it’s not exactly easy to correctly discern.

 

[texasclouds]

Ok what do the pilots do now? Call their union? Give statements or keep quiet? Are they compelled to give statements? Confess all and hope for remedial training?

“My bad”.

 

[dmspilot]

It looks to me like as it crosses the AER 23 threshold, prior to crossing the lear’s window pillar, it starts to go from nose up to flat. That change ends as it crosses the displaced threshold, which is almost immediately to the front and right of the lear’s position, basically center camera, just to the right of the pillar. In all, a little over 2 seconds.

The off-axis, crossing perspective can mess with this, though, so it’s not exactly easy to correctly discern.

I was starting from the taxiway intersection so you went back farther. You are probably right but like you said it's hard to tell.

It does appear they may have been high on short final, crossing in front of the Lear at 55-60 feet vs. standard threshold crossing height (which would be slightly behind them by that point) of 50 feet. That could be why they lowered the nose just before/over the threshold.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I believe dtuuri was talking about the "flare" technique of pushing the nose into the runway, which cushions the landing because the wheels are behind the center of lift.

Yes he was. My point is that that procedure isn’t appropriate under the conditions present at the time of the accident.

 

[Flying Keys]

I'm getting 1000 to 1200fpm.

That’s what I’m getting - 1100fpm. It looks like it crosses the DT at about 45’, established in the final descent angle, and it’s roughly 2.5 seconds from there to impact with no discernible rate of change.