Toronto - Delta Airlines CRJ-900 upside down, Flight 4819 from Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport (MSP) to Toronto

RyanB said:
Yeah, it’s always interesting a select few here likes to jump to a lack of experience and assumptions on it being a recently minted 1500hr CFI turned airline pilot before even knowing any details of such.

Some of the nose high ‘seniors’ of this board need to get a grip.
Click to expand...
Training has definitely been dumbed down and could be improved. Not saying we should be able to draw the electrical schematic but something in the middle. I just did recurrent, and everything is spelled out so you know exactly when and what is coming. We’ve been doing the same 6 “scenarios” for years. I assume the FAA needs to sign off on each one so I understand it may be difficult to change it up. My training at Endeavor was exponentially harder than Delta. Partly because I was coming from a 172 but also there is way more hand holding at DL. In my experience with talking with check airmen, 90% of them say new hires are fantastic to work with and have no issues. The last check airman I flew with said a captain from the 737 came over, having never done any international (not even Mexico, Caribbean, Latin America, etc) and he had a very tough time. He got 8 ocean crossings and still didn’t get signed off. Not a new guy, not a low time pilot. Guy had a ton of experience. There’s always going to be outliers/exceptions.
 
hindsight2020 said:
The apologetics merchants will be by soon to remind you that sHatisHtiKaLly, hurling yourself across the atmosphere at 600mph is the safest form of travel, so I'll bypass the debate.
Click to expand...
A friend of mine who's terrified of flying asked if the airlines were safe. I responded that it's a thin aluminum tube, filled with kerosene, traveling at half the speed of a pistol bullet. What could possibly go wrong?

With this one, I'm kinda wondering if it'll come up in another part of the forum a year from now. "So I had a little of .....and a little of ....., like the Billy Joel song you know, and then everything went weirdly upside down. Now people are making me sad thinking I need to fill out some forms."

And I apologize for making light of the crash. Very happy that so far no deaths reported and it does seem lucky and possibly because of great fire response there was no fire. But I'm sure there are some people really suffering from this, not just fear but injuries from the fall inside. If no one ends up permanently disabled it'll be a good and lucky thing.
 
dans2992 said:
Due to autopilot/automation?
Click to expand...
MauleSkinner said:
lack of understanding how to control an airplane, lack of basic understanding of navigation tools, and moving up from there into the avionics and automation.
Click to expand...

In the early-mid 2000s the airlines got rid of simulator evaluations as part of the interview process.

In the early 2010s the FAA stopped doing CFI checkrides at the FSDO and started sending them all to DPEs.

Around this time more and more regional airlines implemented AQP "train to proficiency" for initial training, when arguably it was never meant for initial training for first-time jet pilots.

In the late 2010s and post-COVID you had a "fog a mirror" pilot shortage.

The combination of the above means you have pilots slipping through to the left seats of jets when they never learned the basics going all the way back to when they were students, partly because CFIs didn't or couldn't teach them.

There's also an institutionalized complacency and belief that stick and rudder skills either don't matter in the jet world, or it is just assumed you have them already when there is no bar to ensure it.
 
Piperonca said:
another view
Click to expand...
GMAFB. I was a passenger in a plane, and ended upside down after landing, with others around me injured, and I pull out my effing phone to get me an Insta video of my exit!?!?!?

GET ME OUTTA HERE, LET ME HELP THE INJURED, SORRY I STEPPED ON YOUR BABY! would be my reaction.

JK, I would not step on a baby. Okay, maybe an ugly one, but there are no ugly babies.

Oh, and get off my lawn. :stirpot:
 
Last edited:
Princesspilot206 said:
Where was the flare?
Click to expand...
Heck - where was the rapid decent arrest?

Speculation - disorientation / lost the horizon in the bad weather?

It was a miracle no one died.

Reminds me of an “Air Disasters” episode where two pilots flying a Fed Ex DC 10 simply botched the touchdown part of the landing so much it turned into a crash.
 
WDD said:
Heck - where was the rapid decent arrest?

Speculation - disorientation / lost the horizon in the bad weather?

It was a miracle no one died.

Reminds me of an “Air Disasters” episode where two pilots flying a Fed Ex DC 10 simply botched the touchdown part of the landing so much it turned into a crash.
Click to expand...

One of my former coworkers was the jumpseater on that flight. He’s got some crazy stories, also used to be a blackhawk pilot for the 160th.
 
It looks like the right wing disappears in a cloud of snow and a fire emanates from the right wing root. Obviously a vigorous fire ensued, but fortunately it appears to have been confined to the removed wing.

It's reasonable to say the clean detachment of the wing greatly reduced the chances of a post crash fire enveloping the fuselage, and that's a blessing.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Oh ****! I've got this airline pilot thing in the bag. I didn't realize where the bar was.

I mean, i know where the bar is. I'm told that's the first qualification but this... I got this.

Buckle up.
Click to expand...
This sounds like a "hold my beer" moment...
 
That video of a hard landing is spectacular.

It doesn’t show the fuselage flipping, though, does it? That must have happened later. I wonder if asymmetrical lift, after the loss of one wing, could roll the whole plane as it slides on the runway?
 
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that they never actually tested if the hydraulics would work with one wing torn off. Guessing.
 
NoHeat said:
That video of a hard landing is spectacular.

It doesn’t show the fuselage flipping, though, does it? That must have happened later. I wonder if asymmetrical lift, after the loss of one wing, could roll the whole plane as it slides on the runway?
Click to expand...
It looks like the right wing digs in and the airplane begins to spin to the right but then it disappears behind a cloud of smoke.
 
There is a lot of snow in the air in the video of the lading, no flare. I suspect that they misjudged their actual altitude. In the passenger deboarding, there were times with blowing snow.

The wing came off, and burst into flames where it was, the plane went on without that fire being connected to them, fortunately it severed completely.
 
geezer said:
There is a lot of snow in the air in the video of the lading, no flare. I suspect that they misjudged their actual altitude. In the passenger deboarding, there were times with blowing snow.

The wing came off, and burst into flames where it was, the plane went on without that fire being connected to them, fortunately it severed completely.
Click to expand...
If you’re going to break an airplane, that’s the way to do it!
 
Damn that's a hell of a video. Sure looks like the pilot thought they were much higher than they were.
 
Tools said:
I cannot count the times I’ve felt a wing rising while a student just did nothing. Reach up, grab yoke or stick and set it back down. Problem solved. Or on short final for that matter.

LOTS of just plain experience matters, AND the willingness to use it. Sometimes you gotta use EVERYTHING you have.

Airlines aren’t known for rewarding that sort of ability or willingness. They preach go around if it don’t look good, but the reality is they DONT want you going around. Training ensures you NEVER go around….
Click to expand...
I have definitely worked for companies that had the work environment you propose. I can’t speak for endeavor. I can say it’s not the case for the airlines I have worked. 91/135 is very different in my experience.

I’ve never had anyone question a go around at an airline. In fact the only time calls are made is when crews land out of an unstable approach and should have gone around.
 
Last edited:
Not sure where he gets his info but in this interview Captain Mike Coffield claims (1:00 mark) the approach speed was 126 mph descending at 1100 fpm at 500' ...

FWIW:
 
Daleandee said:
Not sure where he gets his info but in this interview Captain Mike Coffield claims (1:00 mark) the approach speed was 126 mph descending at 1100 fpm at 500' ...

FWIW:
Click to expand...

I think the person being interviewed goes far into speculation, especially since he acknowledges he doesn't know what the wind speed and direction was at landing. I'm not sure where the "70 MPH" gusts he and the reporter mention comes from while at 3:00 into the video saying vref should have been +50-60 knots.
 
Last edited:
3393RP said:
I think the person being interviewed goes far into speculation, especially since he acknowledges he doesn't know what the wind speed and direction was at landing. I'm not sure where the "70 MPH" gusts he and the reporter mention comes from while at 3:00 into the video saying vref should have been +50-60 knots.
Click to expand...

Yeah ... that's why I gave it a a rating of "FWIW" ...
 
MauleSkinner said:
That’s probably the root problem right there. It’s all about getting the hours, not the experience, the skills, or proficiency. It’s about “how many people can log PIC on a single flight?”
Click to expand...
Yet on those flights where multiple people can log PIC, they're probably still getting more valuable experience than they are on the 873rd lap around the pattern.

Well, if they're paying attention anyway.
DavidWhite said:
Or maybe mandate 500 hours at a flying job other than being a CFI.

There are major airline captains currently flying 737s that the biggest thing they’d flown prior as PIC is a Seminole. If that doesn’t make the hair on the back of your neck stand up I don’t know what will.

Not that experience probably had anything to do with this accident. Just food for thought.
Click to expand...
I've thought about that before, but there are also enough crappy carriers in the 135 world, and just flat-out cowboying in the 91 world, that I'm not sure it's an advantage.

I was lucky to work for a 135 with a very good culture, where compliance and safety were important. But, as the Director of Safety and the analytics guy, I also studied the relative safety of 91, 135, and 121 as well as piston and turbine single and multi operations. Some of the stuff I found in the NTSB database under Part 135 just annoyed the hell out of me - I was like "do we HAVE to count these idiots in the same group we're in?" Bedford was probably the worst example, and the Lear in Teterboro, and the Falcon in Greenville, but there are plenty of examples of 135 operators whose philosophy is "how can we get away with breaking the rules and hiding it from the FAA".

I hope there's still enough oversight from the FAA that the 121 carriers are still safe. The rules are the rules for a reason, and even though there's a bunch of annoying stuff that you have to do to not only obey the rules but keep the records showing that you obey the rules, the system, if it is worked with instead of worked against, WORKS.
catmandu said:
GMAFB. I was a passenger in a plane, and ended upside down after landing, with others around me injured, and I pull out my effing phone to get me an Insta video of my exit!?!?!?
Click to expand...
That's not quite as bad as the other guy who got CARRYING HIS LUGGAGE. :mad2:

dtuuri said:
Air pocket.
Click to expand...
Nope. You would expect to see the pitch of the aircraft increase *more* than normal then, instead of not at all.
geezer said:
There is a lot of snow in the air in the video of the lading, no flare. I suspect that they misjudged their actual altitude.
Click to expand...
That's definitely a possibility. It's a flat light situation.

Are there any CRJ drivers here? Do they have the audible callouts for 100, 50, 40, 30...?

There's some other possibilities - Maybe they either didn't have the deicing systems on or they failed and the plane ended up stalling right at the last minute?
Bill said:
If you’re going to break an airplane, that’s the way to do it!
Click to expand...
Kinda reminded me of that old newscast where they said pilots can eject the wings! I sure wish that was still online somewhere.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Nope. You would expect to see the pitch of the aircraft increase *more* than normal then, instead of not at all.

That's definitely a possibility. It's a flat light situation.

Are there any CRJ drivers here? Do they have the audible callouts for 100, 50, 40, 30...?

There's some other possibilities - Maybe they either didn't have the deicing systems on or they failed and the plane ended up stalling right at the last minute?
Click to expand...
Yeah it sure looks like they either totally missed the flare, or couldn't flare. They do not appear to have arrested the descent at all. The sink rate from the flight data recorder is likely to be damning. It seems hard to believe that a Part 25 RJ in 121 service for a wholly owned subsidiary of a Legacy 3 carrier wouldn't have a sink rate alarm on it.

So were they unstable on the approach and pressed on? Too slow to be able to arrest the descent? Were they trying to setup for a "positive landing" for optimal traction and botched it? Or totally just misjudged because of lighting and vis issues?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That's not quite as bad as the other guy who got CARRYING HIS LUGGAGE. :mad2:
Click to expand...
I'm not a tough guy or violent person, but if I'm ever in an emergency evacuation situation on an airliner and this person is blocking my way, he's gonna get punched in the face.

Just to focus his attention on the task at hand.
 
Just some general comments, worth the price paid. First off, you know the weather & winds well before you launch. Doesn’t guarantee a better outcome, but the F/O gets the previous leg into MSP, or wherever. The left seater has been doing this longer, highly likely. I don’t know who was flying.
With weather like this, even though they aren’t flying, the ‘pilot monitoring’ is nearly as tight in the loop. I’m talking about timely, concise comments as needed, especially below 1000’ AGL.


With the gusts come a little higher ‘target speed’, some of this extra target speed needs to be carried right to pavement. There also needs to be some flair, not at a rate to ‘balloon’ though. The runways are fairly long, a ‘mini-float’ isn’t the end of the world, but you would be vulnerable to a gust during any float.
Does this plane have the GPWS altitude callouts? 50,30,20,10, very helpful, cadence included.


From what I saw, didn’t see weather & winds to the point of requiring a divert, always have the option of going missed. I’m very glad they all made it, don’t really care for funerals.
BWTHDIK..
 
Wow… we’re overthinking this a tad, ya I know…

Pilot flying didn’t know how to fly
Pilot monitoring didn’t know how to monitor

Why THAT is, goes WAAAAAAY back.

Also causal, and with my background I’m obliged to mention:

Airplane not strong like bull

Weather, automated callouts, etc: meh
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top