Top Gun 2

wanttaja said:
All but two appear to be missile kills, which certainly isn't a traditional dogfight. McNamara was right. :)

(the only two non-missile kills were by A-10s, which means it's the last remaining dogfighter.) :)

Ron Wanttaja
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Most of those fights can loosely be described as WVR......and some involved traditional maneuvering at the "merge". The gun is truly not a very good or reliable weapon in a scenario where you have about 30 seconds or so to either win, or die. Even vs an aircraft that is unaware and non-maneuvering, it isn't perfect, much less against an adversary who is yielding only fleeting moments of vulnerability to said weapon. Missiles these days are very good "dogfighting" weapons, and I think that is what you will continue to see. McNamara's dream was of interceptors shooting non-maneuvering Soviet bombers from great range, something that has never happened. In fact, I don't think a US missile has ever been shot in combat (in history) greater than 20 NM away, most being much much less than that, in spite of the capabilities of more modern western weapons and radars. With that being said, I believe an EF-111 was also credited with a "rocks kill" in desert storm, after baiting an Mirage F1 or MiG-29 (can't remember which) into a night split-S into the ground. Wonder if they are actually the last "dogfighter" :)
 
35 AoA said:
Most of those fights can loosely be described as WVR......and some involved traditional maneuvering at the "merge". The gun is truly not a very good or reliable weapon in a scenario where you have about 30 seconds or so to either win, or die. Even vs an aircraft that is unaware and non-maneuvering, it isn't perfect, much less against an adversary who is yielding only fleeting moments of vulnerability to said weapon. Missiles these days are very good "dogfighting" weapons, and I think that is what you will continue to see. McNamara's dream was of interceptors shooting non-maneuvering Soviet bombers from great range, something that has never happened. In fact, I don't think a US missile has ever been shot in combat (in history) greater than 20 NM away, most being much much less than that, in spite of the capabilities of more modern western weapons and radars. With that being said, I believe an EF-111 was also credited with a "rocks kill" in desert storm, after baiting an Mirage F1 or MiG-29 (can't remember which) into a night split-S into the ground. Wonder if they are actually the last "dogfighter" :)
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Should be a gate guard at Cannon AFB.
https://tacairnet.com/2013/09/10/unarmed-kill/
 
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35 AoA said:
...I don't think a US missile has ever been shot in combat (in history) greater than 20 NM away, most being much much less than that, in spite of the capabilities of more modern western weapons and radars...
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Didn't the F-14 folks lob a few Phoenixes at escaping Iraqi aircraft when Iraq relocated its air force to Iran during Desert Storm? I had the impression that was at long, long range.
 
kyleb said:
Didn't the F-14 folks lob a few Phoenixes at escaping Iraqi aircraft when Iraq relocated its air force to Iran during Desert Storm? I had the impression that was at long, long range.
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No. IIRC the Tomcats from our wing (CVW-8) were close to getting in range to do it once but never quite got there despite max burner. At the time they were flying with two Phoenix (plus four sparrows and a couple of winders) but after went to a more standard load out.

The Iranians did get some long-range kills with Phoenix during the Iraq Iran war I think.
 
kyleb said:
Didn't the F-14 folks lob a few Phoenixes at escaping Iraqi aircraft when Iraq relocated its air force to Iran during Desert Storm? I had the impression that was at long, long range.
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That was Southern Watch well after the war, and the AIM-54 had not been properly built up/installed on the rail.....it fell like a bomb into the ocean. Not sure what range that was at, but wouldn't have mattered anyway. Believe that was VF-213, not sure if they were in CVW-8 at the time, though they were later.
 
35 AoA said:
That was Southern Watch well after the war, and the AIM-54 had not been properly built up/installed on the rail.....it fell like a bomb into the ocean. Not sure what range that was at, but wouldn't have mattered anyway. Believe that was VF-213, not sure if they were in CVW-8 at the time, though they were later.
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Tomcat buddy called those "tuna seekers" and I understand it wasn't rare. Our Tomcats were VF-84 and 41 in CVW-8 during ODS.
 
From the PR is seems more about Tom cruze than a actual storyline.

I might wait till it Netflix
 
Pugs said:
Tomcat buddy called those "tuna seekers" and I understand it wasn't rare. Our Tomcats were VF-84 and 41 in CVW-8 during ODS.
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Interesting how the giant squadron shuffle happens every once in a while. When I cruised with CAG-8, we were VFA-15, VFA-87, VFA-31, VFA-213 (in terms of fighter squadrons). I've lost track of what they are now, but I know it is completely different. As it was during your time. To be fair, those were old old missiles, even in the 1990's, and the Tomcats were also old old jets. I'm sure R+C checks were super fun for the AT's and AO's :) But I did hear in that particular instance, the missile umbilical was either not connected, or it simply wasn't armed on the cat, or both.
 
35 AoA said:
Interesting how the giant squadron shuffle happens every once in a while. When I cruised with CAG-8, we were VFA-15, VFA-87, VFA-31, VFA-213 (in terms of fighter squadrons). I've lost track of what they are now, but I know it is completely different. As it was during your time. To be fair, those were old old missiles, even in the 1990's, and the Tomcats were also old old jets. I'm sure R+C checks were super fun for the AT's and AO's :) But I did hear in that particular instance, the missile umbilical was either not connected, or it simply wasn't armed on the cat, or both.
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At the time we were supposed to be the new generation airwing off TR.

24 Tomcats - VF-84/41
24 Hornets (C's) - VFA-15/VFA-87
20 Intruders (all bomber no tankers) - VA-35/VA-65
5 Prowlers - VAQ-141
5 E-2s - VAW-124
12 S-3Bs VS-24
Buncha H-3s

The handler was ulcer prone :D We left a bunch of S-3s in Sig when we went to war. That airwing could put some serious iron on the beach. Wish the Tomcats has been bombers too.
 
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X3 Skier said:
I recall the Bombcat in the late 90’s.

Cheers
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Essentially just became the "Tomcat" post 9/11......ie their mission turned to CAS and FAC(A) since nobody needed fleet defense or armed OCA's at that point in history.
 
New Trailer. With the two trailers we pretty much know the whole movie now. Not worth going to the movie theater to watch it. :(

Of note is the F-14 dogfighting a PAK T50 / SU-57. Kinda impossible.
 
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Also, “I’m not a teacher.” What happened to “I thought of being an instructor…sir” ;)
 
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I've been waiting to watch this movie for a while now. May 27 is the released date, I hope there's no more delays!
 
Well they have the "flying under a bridge scene" ...

No thanks!
 
Daleandee said:
Well they have the "flying under a bridge scene" ...

No thanks!
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I believe that was a last minute addition sometime last year. Someone found out if Martha Lunken can do it, the Navy can as well. Since the movie is in a perpetual holding pattern for release, they can just add footage as necessary. :)
 
GRG55 said:
Don't think the original did all that much for civilian flying school enrolment. But it sure boosted Navy and other military forces recruiting. A lot.
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Oddly enough, it was actually Apocalypse Now that inspired me when I was a kid, not Top Gun. I mean, I grew up on Navy bases around fighter pilots so Top Gun was mostly ******** to me anyway. Ironically, I ended up spending my last tour in the First Cavalry Division, the Army unit depicted in the movie.
 
Oops, I totally necroreplied. Oh well.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Oddly enough, it was actually Apocalypse Now that inspired me when I was a kid, not Top Gun. I mean, I grew up on Navy bases around fighter pilots so Top Gun was mostly ******** to me anyway. Ironically, I ended up spending my last tour in the First Cavalry Division, the Army unit depicted in the movie.
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So, uh, are you a surfer?
 
Velocity173 said:
I believe that was a last minute addition sometime last year. Someone found out if Martha Lunken can do it, the Navy can as well. Since the movie is in a perpetual holding pattern for release, they can just add footage as necessary. :)
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I've wondered if the director has gone back over the film during this two year delay to tweak things.
 
I like the CGI where a fighter "nudgin' the number" gets hits by a missile and immediately stops mid air and plummets straight for the ground. How does that happen?
 
EvilEagle said:
The trend has been for further and further distance between shooter and target. I won't go into too much detail on this; the X band is where all the targeting info is passed from shooter to missile. 20 years ago the X band was wide enough that the technology to be able to have a smart jammer that can shut down enough of that band to matter was unavailable. The times they are 'a changin.

I see a bigger need going forward for BFM skills.

Here's the other thing about BFM ("dog fighting"). It sculpts the way a young fighter pilot's mind works. BFM forces you to make life-or-death decisions every 1/2 to 1 second. You make a decision, maneuver the jet to try to get it to follow what your brain had in mind (lots more to that part than one sentence), immediately forget what just happened because you are making another determination about the picture the bandit is showing you, then make another decision, etc, etc. We need guys to make decisions in the jet. They have to process a $H!T LOAD of data in a fraction of a second and make a *nearly perfect decision; that happens all the time - not just in BFM. The last 20 years of COIN operations has dulled that once finely tuned edge; we better get back to it quick IMO.

Even if we get laser beams that kill people 100 miles away, we need to practice BFM or find something else as challenging and fun (not likely) to hone that decision making ability.
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I suspect in 10 years it will all be drones and the "fighter pilots" will be in a trailer in Milwaukee :)
 
DFH65 said:
I suspect in 10 years it will all be drones and the "fighter pilots" will be in a trailer in Milwaukee :)
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If we could get the mission done and keep everyone out of harms way, I'm all for it.

We aren't even remotely moving in that direction; 10 years from now it will look much the same. Maybe in 25 years.... 50 years.
 
27th opening day. Who’s going?


 
Not it. Not even thinking about it. It’d be like Ford badging that hideous electric SUV as a Ford GT.
 
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