This may have been covered before, used airplane pricing.

midcap

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midcap
I am on a few facebook pages where people have listed their planes for sale. I also peruse the internet sites like controller, trade a plane etc.

What I have noticed is that on the FB pages people will list their plane for way less than what you see on the internet sites.

What gives? Are the internet sites full of planes whose owners don't really want to sell but list the planes there so they can show their wife the planes for sale?

I don't get it. Why don't people just price their stuff to sell?
 
I am on a few facebook pages where people have listed their planes for sale. I also peruse the internet sites like controller, trade a plane etc.

What I have noticed is that on the FB pages people will list their plane for way less than what you see on the internet sites.

What gives? Are the internet sites full of planes whose owners don't really want to sell but list the planes there so they can show their wife the planes for sale?

I don't get it. Why don't people just price their stuff to sell?
Why do a lot of the ads say "call for price"?
 
I don't even bother with those
Same here. In fact, maybe that's just me, but I find them kind of personally insulting. It's one thing to say "call for price" if you're selling something very specialty and high end, but when I see it on Archers, 172s, even older SR20s I just skip those. Personally I think that either those people are testing the market and have no idea what their plane is worth so they're waiting for the market to tell them, or they're trying to add a "specialty" factor to their listing to make it seem exclusive. Like when that beachfront home just says "inquire with listing agent" for the price

I'd be curious what kind of activity the sellers see though.. a lot of people do it so maybe it works if you're on the selling side?
 
Same here. In fact, maybe that's just me, but I find them kind of personally insulting. It's one thing to say "call for price" if you're selling something very specialty and high end, but when I see it on Archers, 172s, even older SR20s I just skip those. Personally I think that either those people are testing the market and have no idea what their plane is worth so they're waiting for the market to tell them, or they're trying to add a "specialty" factor to their listing to make it seem exclusive. Like when that beachfront home just says "inquire with listing agent" for the price

I'd be curious what kind of activity the sellers see though.. a lot of people do it so maybe it works if you're on the selling side?

I think the sellers do that because they think they can get more money. I.E. try to talk someone into paying more for the plane or start off at this ridiculous high price and then try and feel out the buyer to squeeze some more juice from them. Either way I don't play the game.
 
Why do a lot of the ads say "call for price"?
I say we form a group of a hundred or two that calls each of those listings over the course of a month or so. Just call and say "how much?" Then when they give the price simply say "thank you" and hang up.

To me, "call for price" is another way of saying "tire kickers welcome here".
 
They say call for price so you will call. If they list the price they think you wont bother calling. Must be an owner or an agent, probably an agent, that doesn't mind looky lou calls.

People call and say all kinds of outlandish stuff. Make offers that arent real. Try and trick each other. Gotta weed out that BS. Part of trying to sell. I didn't even want to deal with slick operators. Hard enough if everyone is honest.

Dont expect total honesty on the planes condition though. Find that out for yourself. But who owns it, what liens are on it and a starting bid should be totally out front and honest. Dont bother with earnest money. Just get the plane inspected for corrosion and an honest compression test and go from there.
 
I tried "call for price" in our refurbished Yugo business (fail) and it didn't seem to help.
 
Call for price,just another sales tactic ,to get you in conversation,to try and sell the airplane,usually overpriced.
 
Call for price,just another sales tactic ,to get you in conversation,to try and sell the airplane,usually overpriced.

Or it's a much loved well maintained plane that you shouldn't pass over because the seller wants an opportunity to explain why you shouldn't pass on their plane solely based on price. If you like the plane it's worth at least a phone call. You're not buying a gallon of milk.


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As someone who has been looking for an aircraft, the way to get me to ignore your listing: call for price, no photos or useless photos, no times listed, really anything that makes it harder for me to evaluate your aircraft just based on the listing. There are enough on the market of the makes/models I'm looking for I can easily skip yours.
 
I recently sold a used airplane and bought a different used airplane. I did notice a few sellers and brokers(mostly brokers) that were different from 15 years ago. First the "call for price" gambit. I called several of these types of ads; they were all brokers. Never talked to an owner/seller who had that in the ad. Broker spends time explaining to you that you don't really understand the used a/c market and his price is really a bargain... just reduced, etc.

The other weird thing that I noticed was this: 1) I called the broker, he quoted me a price. The ad had 7 photos of fair quality, and a 1/2 page description/equip list. No engine or airframe mx log pages. No other info. I asked for scanned logbook pages and the broker said that he got so many deadbeats/tirekickers that he doesn't bother forwarding this info until the deal process is "father along". This Broker had probably 20 airplanes listed online at this time, seemed like a legit operation.

The airplane was 250 miles away and I still had access to my Tiger for another week, so I called him back and told him I was planning to come look at it, at his convenience. He said: "so are you offering to purchase for $86K?" (that was the Barnstormer's asking price). I said "not yet, I just want to look at the aircraft and the logbooks if it checks out OK I'll make an offer. I AM flying 500miles roundtrip just to look...".

He chuckled and said: "it doesn't work that way. The way it works is: you peruse the ad and decide on a fair price, you make the offer, if the owner is OK with it, you PUT THE MONEY IN ESCROW, and come look look at it.

I said: "wait, you seriously are refusing to let me see the aircraft until I put $86K in escrow with your company connected to the account?

He said "we can probably negotiate the pre-purchase escrow funds down somewhat. But I really don't have time to meet with every Tom, Dick & Harry who want to look at and sit in a used a/c, but has neither the means nor the immediate plans to buy anything"

I said: "FYI, I am in the process of completing the sale of my existing aircraft. Even before the sale completes, I am liquid enough to purchase this aircraft with cash".

He said, "that's great for you, and I'm sure you are telling the truth, but like I said before, go ahead and do the escrow deposit and we can continue. Do you want me to email instructions?"

I said: "look, I don't wan't to put you out, but it is ENOUGH TROUBLE to visit the a/c, possibly hire an a&p to check it with me, before you let me see the aircraft and logs! I don't intend to visit my bank, tie up funds, possibly wastee more of my time, just to get your permission to see the thing. Does your seller know that you are driving off potential buyers with this policy?"

He said: "you might not understand, but most of our sellers are busier than we are. They appreciate our professionalism; that's why they select us".

I didn't say anything more, just hung up the phone. I ended up finding an buying the same model a/c, a Vans, about 10 days later and about half the distance away. Lucked out a bit on that.

My impression of this broker outfit, is, it signs up the aircaft, advertises it online, and waits for a "live one" to come along, as long as the "live one" doesn't require more that a 60 sec phone call or a couple of texts. Absolutely no getting up from the chair until the sale is "father along".

end of rant. Good news is, the purchase worked out fine with a private seller.
 
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If you like the plane it's worth at least a phone call.
That's my other fear though. Let's say you have a $125K budget... and you fall in love with an airplane and they want $150K... what do you do now? Suck it up and spend the extra $25K or move along? At least if you scroll past the "call for price" you save yourself the potential heartache
 
He chuckled and said: "it doesn't work that way. The way it works is: you peruse the ad and decide on a fair price, you make the offer, if the owner is OK with it, you PUT THE MONEY IN ESCROW, and come look look at it.
I can *sort of* get why they would do that. Most sellers of "toys" that approach or are at the six figure mark will want to know you are a legit buyer before they spend time with you. The tough part is, that makes the process that much more cumbersome for the legit buyers out there. There should be a middle ground there somewhere. Having said that, this guy definitely sounded like he wasn't looking for your business so I would have done the same thing
 
That's my other fear though. Let's say you have a $125K budget... and you fall in love with an airplane and they want $150K... what do you do now? Suck it up and spend the extra $25K or move along? At least if you scroll past the "call for price" you save yourself the potential heartache
Dude, you sound like George McFly trying to talk himself out of asking a girl out, because he 'can't take that kind of rejection'.....
 
I recently sold a used airplane and bought a different used airplane. I did notice a few sellers and brokers(mostly brokers) that were different from 15 years ago. First the "call for price" gambit. I called several of these types of ads; they were all brokers. Never talked to an owner/seller who had that in the ad. Broker spends time explaining to you that you don't really understand the used a/c market and his price is really a bargain... just reduced, etc.

The other weird thing that I noticed was this: 1) I called the broker, he quoted me a price. The ad had 7 photos of fair quality, and a 1/2 page description/equip list. No engine or airframe mx log pages. No other info. I asked for scanned logbook pages and the broker said that he got so many deadbeats/tirekickers that he doesn't bother forwarding this info until the deal process is "father along". This Broker had probably 20 airplanes listed online at this time, seemed like a legit operation.

The airplane was 250 miles away and I still had access to my Tiger for another week, so I called him back and told him I was planning to come look at it, at his convenience. He said: "so are you offering to purchase for $86K?" (that was the Barnstormer's asking price). I said "not yet, I just want to look at the aircraft and the logbooks if it checks out OK I'll make an offer. I AM flying 500miles roundtrip just to look...".

He chuckled and said: "it doesn't work that way. The way it works is: you peruse the ad and decide on a fair price, you make the offer, if the owner is OK with it, you PUT THE MONEY IN ESCROW, and come look look at it.

I said: "wait, you seriously are refusing to let me see the aircraft until I put $86K in escrow with your company connected to the account?

He said "we can probably negotiate the pre-purchase escrow funds down somewhat. But I really don't have time to meet with every Tom, Dick & Harry who want to look at and sit in a used a/c, but has neither the means nor the immediate plans to buy anything"

I said: "FYI, I am in the process of completing the sale of my existing aircraft. Even before the sale completes, I am liquid enough to purchase this aircraft with cash".

He said, "that's great for you, and I'm sure you are telling the truth, but like I said before, go ahead and do the escrow deposit and we can continue. Do you want me to email instructions?"

I said: "look, I don't wan't to put you out, but it is ENOUGH TROUBLE to visit the a/c, possibly hire an a&p to check it with me, before you let me see the aircraft and logs! I don't intend to visit my bank, tie up funds, possibly wastee more of my time, just to get your permission to see the thing. Does your seller know that you are driving off potential buyers with this policy?"

He said: "you might not understand, but most of our sellers are busier than we are. They appreciate our professionalism; that's why they select us".

I didn't say anything more, just hung up the phone. I ended up finding an buying the same model a/c, a Vans, about 10 days later and about half the distance away. Lucked out a bit on that.

My impression of this broker outfit, is, it signs up the aircaft, advertises it online, and waits for a "live one" to come along, as long as the "live one" doesn't require more that a 60 sec phone call or a couple of texts. Absolutely no getting up from the chair until the sale is "father along".

end of rant. Good news is, the purchase worked out fine with a private seller.
He must have a lot of business, because that broker certainly didn't want your's.

It's one thing to insist on a purchase agreement and money in escrow before letting you do a prebuy inspection, but to refuse to let you even see the airplane before having an agreed offer? That's a broker I wouldn't want to deal with as a buyer OR seller.
 
Call for price,just another sales tactic ,to get you in conversation,to try and sell the airplane,usually overpriced.
Not always true. My Baron was a 'call for price'. Broker gave me a rough range that he thought the airplane was worth and the price we agreed upon was actually pretty good.

I understand when there are 50 172s for sale and you are trying to narrow down your playing field, but if everything else looks good, don't arbitrarily cross off an airplane because it says 'call for price'.

Don't let your pride steer you away from a good airplane.
 
I am on a few facebook pages where people have listed their planes for sale. I also peruse the internet sites like controller, trade a plane etc.

What I have noticed is that on the FB pages people will list their plane for way less than what you see on the internet sites.

What gives? Are the internet sites full of planes whose owners don't really want to sell but list the planes there so they can show their wife the planes for sale?

I don't get it. Why don't people just price their stuff to sell?

I guess some people have different ideas of buying and selling.

I happen to view the process of buying and selling personal property via classified ads as a gigantic pain in the ass and a waste of my precious time. Regardless of the object (furniture, car, boat, bicycle, whatever) I tend to price things so they will sell quickly. I ask slightly below market value and if someone offers me 10% less I won't turn my nose up.

Same with buying, I generally don't bother calling someone unless I am prepared to offer close to their asking price. (Within 10-15%, no lowballs)


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Or it's a much loved well maintained plane that you shouldn't pass over because the seller wants an opportunity to explain why you shouldn't pass on their plane solely based on price. If you like the plane it's worth at least a phone call. You're not buying a gallon of milk.


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Then put that in the ad to explain why it's worth more than the generic beater.
 
Not always true. My Baron was a 'call for price'. Broker gave me a rough range that he thought the airplane was worth and the price we agreed upon was actually pretty good.
Please explain your thought process. If the price was "pretty good" then why keep it a secret?
 
Then put that in the ad to explain why it's worth more than the generic beater.

Ads are limited. You want the best plane you'll seek it out. Not follow prideful rules...


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I recently sold a used airplane and bought a different used airplane. I did notice a few sellers and brokers(mostly brokers) that were different from 15 years ago. First the "call for price" gambit. I called several of these types of ads; they were all brokers. Never talked to an owner/seller who had that in the ad. Broker spends time explaining to you that you don't really understand the used a/c market and his price is really a bargain... just reduced, etc.

The other weird thing that I noticed was this: 1) I called the broker, he quoted me a price. The ad had 7 photos of fair quality, and a 1/2 page description/equip list. No engine or airframe mx log pages. No other info. I asked for scanned logbook pages and the broker said that he got so many deadbeats/tirekickers that he doesn't bother forwarding this info until the deal process is "father along". This Broker had probably 20 airplanes listed online at this time, seemed like a legit operation.

The airplane was 250 miles away and I still had access to my Tiger for another week, so I called him back and told him I was planning to come look at it, at his convenience. He said: "so are you offering to purchase for $86K?" (that was the Barnstormer's asking price). I said "not yet, I just want to look at the aircraft and the logbooks if it checks out OK I'll make an offer. I AM flying 500miles roundtrip just to look...".

He chuckled and said: "it doesn't work that way. The way it works is: you peruse the ad and decide on a fair price, you make the offer, if the owner is OK with it, you PUT THE MONEY IN ESCROW, and come look look at it.

I said: "wait, you seriously are refusing to let me see the aircraft until I put $86K in escrow with your company connected to the account?

He said "we can probably negotiate the pre-purchase escrow funds down somewhat. But I really don't have time to meet with every Tom, Dick & Harry who want to look at and sit in a used a/c, but has neither the means nor the immediate plans to buy anything"

I said: "FYI, I am in the process of completing the sale of my existing aircraft. Even before the sale completes, I am liquid enough to purchase this aircraft with cash".

He said, "that's great for you, and I'm sure you are telling the truth, but like I said before, go ahead and do the escrow deposit and we can continue. Do you want me to email instructions?"

I said: "look, I don't wan't to put you out, but it is ENOUGH TROUBLE to visit the a/c, possibly hire an a&p to check it with me, before you let me see the aircraft and logs! I don't intend to visit my bank, tie up funds, possibly wastee more of my time, just to get your permission to see the thing. Does your seller know that you are driving off potential buyers with this policy?"

He said: "you might not understand, but most of our sellers are busier than we are. They appreciate our professionalism; that's why they select us".

I didn't say anything more, just hung up the phone. I ended up finding an buying the same model a/c, a Vans, about 10 days later and about half the distance away. Lucked out a bit on that.

My impression of this broker outfit, is, it signs up the aircaft, advertises it online, and waits for a "live one" to come along, as long as the "live one" doesn't require more that a 60 sec phone call or a couple of texts. Absolutely no getting up from the chair until the sale is "father along".

end of rant. Good news is, the purchase worked out fine with a private seller.
Does this broker sell a lot of Cessnas by any chance?
 
Ads are limited. You want the best plane you'll seek it out. Not follow prideful rules...


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Seriously? An ad on Controller can have hundreds of words; this ain't the old days of $/word in the classifieds... And what are "prideful rules"?
 
Seriously? An ad on Controller can have hundreds of words; this ain't the old days of $/word in the classifieds... And what are "prideful rules"?

Yeah some things are better discussed. Rules like I won't call if they don't publish a price. Because that bugs me...


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And you'll never know if you missed the best one for you...


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Yeah some things are better discussed. Rules like I won't call if they don't publish a price. Because that bugs me...


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What does "pride" have to do with it? My skeptical NYC attitude is the seller has something to hide (besides the price.) Would you call a car dealer that had "call for price" in their ads?
 
But you don't know that. A phone call takes 5 mins.

It reminds me of those who complain about FBO prices but couldn't be bothered to pick up the phone to get info before departure.

An airplane purchase is not a trivial purchase. Sure if you're buying a 172 there are plenty I guess. But anything more complex or expensive requires doing some leg work.


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Don't let your pride steer you away from a good airplane.

It's not my pride, it's that there are 50-100 of that make and model out there and I'm not going to take the 5-10 minutes to call them when there are 95% of the other aircraft out there I can spend time evaluating instead. Now, sure, if it's a true one of a kind, maybe I'd call. But for a Beech, Cirrus, Cessna, Mooney, Piper etc, no.
 
It's not my pride, it's that there are 50-100 of that make and model out there and I'm not going to take the 5-10 minutes to call them when there are 95% of the other aircraft out there I can spend time evaluating instead. Now, sure, if it's a true one of a kind, maybe I'd call. But for a Beech, Cirrus, Cessna, Mooney, Piper etc, no.

How many say Mooney M20K 252s are listed right now? Maybe 3? You bet I'd call em all...


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He must have a lot of business, because that broker certainly didn't want your's.

It's one thing to insist on a purchase agreement and money in escrow before letting you do a prebuy inspection, but to refuse to let you even see the airplane before having an agreed offer? That's a broker I wouldn't want to deal with as a buyer OR seller.
Yeah. It was a suprise to me. Had not heard of this before. And I couldn't get him to change the policy, convince him that I was a buyer poised to make a purchase. I wonder if the broker has a lot of listings in different cities with no local agent to show the aircraft. It seems to me that he is definitely not doing his best for the seller, his client.
 
Does this broker sell a lot of Cessnas by any chance?
It seemed to be just another medium small shop. Looked like he semi specialized in Vans, but did have several other types. I thought it was odd that his ads seemed to be mostly on Controller, not Tap or Barnstormers.
 
I can *sort of* get why they would do that. Most sellers of "toys" that approach or are at the six figure mark will want to know you are a legit buyer before they spend time with you. The tough part is, that makes the process that much more cumbersome for the legit buyers out there. There should be a middle ground there somewhere. Having said that, this guy definitely sounded like he wasn't looking for your business so I would have done the same thing
I sort of see your point. I can see throwing out a few hurdles to weed out tire kickers. But I couldn't understand his lack of flexibility, that couldn't convince him that I was worth his time. I asked how I get my money back from escrow if I didn't like the aircraft. He said you just document the discrepancies you find that were not covered in the online info... seemed like he was deliberately making it difficult.
 
That sounds like a broker who's not likely to see any return sales, or perhaps even make many sales to begin with. The home analogy would be to put your earnest money and bank guarantee of funding (or pure cash for the house) into escrow before you're allowed to walk through the house and perform an inspection. i can guarantee you that most, if not all, prospective home owners would tell a real estate agent to go "pound sand." Likewise, I would have told this broker the same. In my opinion, they are there to EARN my money. I don't have to throw my money at them to beg them to let me see an aircraft tied-down on the ramp or in a hangar somewhere.
 
He said: "you might not understand, but most of our sellers are busier than we are. They appreciate our professionalism; that's why they select us".

That's why they are paying a broker to spend time with potential buyers - not ignore them. You stayed on the line with him longer than I would have.

Maybe the broker should hire someone that actually wants to make money from selling planes enough to do some work making it happen.
 
I sort of see your point. I can see throwing out a few hurdles to weed out tire kickers. But I couldn't understand his lack of flexibility, that couldn't convince him that I was worth his time. I asked how I get my money back from escrow if I didn't like the aircraft. He said you just document the discrepancies you find that were not covered in the online info... seemed like he was deliberately making it difficult.

So you literally had to buy the plane sight unseen. Your only out was if it wasn't as advertised. I hope he goes broke doing business that way, but there are fools out there that think they are busy enough that it makes sense to buy a plane based on an internet ad.
 
I bought my Saratoga from a hot of the press Barnstormers add titled "Make offer". I almost interpreted it to read "call for price" but that was not the case. I reluctantly made the call... made an offer after a brief conversation and flew to hand deliver a solid deposit check the next day. I cringe thinking about how close I came to not making that call.

Add titles suggest trend but don't be so quick to judge! Might be a winner in there somewhere!
 
It's not my pride, it's that there are 50-100 of that make and model out there and I'm not going to take the 5-10 minutes to call them when there are 95% of the other aircraft out there I can spend time evaluating instead. Now, sure, if it's a true one of a kind, maybe I'd call. But for a Beech, Cirrus, Cessna, Mooney, Piper etc, no.
That's fine, but when 25 of those are clapped out, another 10 are waaaaay overpriced and there is one of 3 that happens to have nice looking photos, plenty of good details and the avionics you are looking for…..are you really going to write that one off just because it says 'call for price'?
 
Please explain your thought process. If the price was "pretty good" then why keep it a secret?
Sellers often get tons of emails from people asking random questions,75% of which aren't super interested, they are just window shopping. I just went through this with my 170. You get a ton of junk emails. The two serious buyers I worked with sent emails AND called me.

Some (but not all brokers) would prefer to have a buyer call and talk to them on the phone to better gauge interest. That is their logic.

I'm not a broker. I don't list airplanes that way myself. But I'm not going to cross off a potentially good airplane just because I have to talk to someone on the phone to work a deal. If the price is too high and they don't want to be reasonable (which sometimes happens) then I can always say no.
 
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