This may have been covered before, used airplane pricing.

Sellers often get tons of emails from people asking random questions,75% of which aren't super interested, they are just window shopping. I just went through this with my 170. You get a ton of junk emails. The two serious buyers I worked with sent emails AND called me.

Some (but not all brokers) would prefer to have a buyer call and talk to them on the phone to better gauge interest. That is their logic.

I'm not a broker. I don't list airplanes that way myself. But I'm not going to cross off a potentially good airplane just because I have to talk to someone on the phone to work a deal. If the price is too high and they don't want to be reasonable (which sometimes happens) then I can always say no.
Many brokers and most buyers list the asking price. I think the ones that don't, as a rule, are either clueless or manipulative. There aren't too many product categories that aren't up front with the price. The ones that aren't are usually trying to get a buyer on the hook.
 
Many brokers and most buyers list the asking price. I think the ones that don't, as a rule, are either clueless or manipulative. There aren't too many product categories that aren't up front with the price. The ones that aren't are usually trying to get a buyer on the hook.

Browse the listings, the more expensive the plane the less likely the price is listed. It becomes a majority of the listings. If your desire to punish those that you think are just trying to manipulate you outweighs your desire to get the best plane for you even if it takes a little work, more power to you.

Yes some are shady. And some are good listings. There is no 100% rule.


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Many brokers and most buyers list the asking price. I think the ones that don't, as a rule, are either clueless or manipulative. There aren't too many product categories that aren't up front with the price. The ones that aren't are usually trying to get a buyer on the hook.
All I can say is that hasn't been my experience. And if I did come across a broker like that, I'd just hang up and move on to the next one.

This isn't the 1970s. Long distance phone calls are pretty cheap.
 
This isn't the 1970s. Long distance phone calls are pretty cheap.
Maybe, but sales guys in loud sport coats are apparently still selling airplanes the old fashioned way. And electronic ink is cheap too, so there's no excuse to be terse in ads.

The guys selling jets and high-priced turboprops (assumed since there's no price listed!) have other reasons (ex., competitive, hiding the value from the owner's ex-wife's lawyers and their stockholders) for hiding the price.
 
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I bought my Saratoga from a hot of the press Barnstormers add titled "Make offer". I almost interpreted it to read "call for price" but that was not the case. I reluctantly made the call... made an offer after a brief conversation and flew to hand deliver a solid deposit check the next day. I cringe thinking about how close I came to not making that call.

Add titles suggest trend but don't be so quick to judge! Might be a winner in there somewhere!

I don't mind a "make offer" that usually means the guy knows he's going to get low balled and then work from there.

Call for price...is dumb.
 
are you really going to write that one off just because it says 'call for price'?
Actually, I'm likely not even going to see them.

I sort by price most of the time and '$CALL$' end up at the beginning or end of the list. I scroll past the planes priced as projects, read through my budget and maybe a bit above, then close the site and move on to the next one. I just noticed Controller sorts them after the highest priced planes, so I'll never even notice them most of the time.
 
I just noticed Controller sorts them after the highest priced planes, so I'll never even notice them most of the time.
You can change the sort in a bunch of ways.
 
My recent experience with brokers-
One broker said the online price was firm, even after showing him other ads and the bank's estimate on value. He was about 10k high (53k versus listed at 66k). Would not budge on price. Plane is still for sale after a year. He told me the owner was eager to sell though...
One broker was not available. He was showing planes all day. Fine. Talked with a nice assistant that assured me he would call back. I asked her what the price was and to shoot along the logs is all I needed, but I would take his call if he rather than just email me. Zero response to my call and follow up emails.
Sent 3 emails yesterday on 3 different planes. Zero answers, not even a auto generated email.
I generally send emails versus calling. I am just looking to see if the plane is still for sale since 75% of the time the plane is already under contract and if it is, can they send the logs. If I can get answers to both, then that tells me if I should call or walk away. Seems like I get about a 40% answer rate on emails. Phone calls are hit and miss. Most of the time its voicemail because they are with a customer or they just read me the ad that I already have in front of me. Just happened to me. He pulled up the ad and read it to me verbatim. How do you think I found the number to call you? And then nothing about the 4 years of no annuals or the 15 hours total use since 2010 that was in the logs. Was it pickled correctly? Why was it not in annual for years? I was looking for the extra information/sales pitch, not what the paint was out of 10.

For potential sellers-
10 good recent pictures. 2 to 3 of the panel, 2 to 3 of the interior and exterior.
List of the avionics. King IFR stack doesn't help me much, nor IFR certified with no other info.
Engine OH time as well as hours. 200 SMOH sounds great until you have to contact them and find out the OH was 1997
Online link to the logs.

Have those things in an easy to find way, and it should reduce idiots like me calling until they are serious.


I am sure there are a list of things that buyers do that irritate the sellers also.
 
The price is negotiable. The ownership and liens on the airplane should be revealed in an honest manner. No misrepresentations here. The condition of the airplane should be described by the seller as it really is, but the buyer needs to verify the condition. Its a used airplane, things aren't going to be perfect. The buyer is going to have to pay a mechanic to give it a compression test (owner or agent not present) and look for corrosion. Everything else can be verified by the buyer.

I don't like dealing with agents. Especially if they do what most of them do and that is to do whatever they can get away with. Its bad enough dealing with the owners. They tend to do the same thing. Its just human nature.
"Everything works" says the owner.
"What about this doodad? It doesnt work" says the buyer.
"everything except that works" says the owner.
"That will cost you 1000 dollars" says the buyer.
Fair enough.
And so it goes.
 
My recent experience with brokers-
One broker said the online price was firm, even after showing him other ads and the bank's estimate on value. He was about 10k high (53k versus listed at 66k). Would not budge on price. Plane is still for sale after a year. He told me the owner was eager to sell though...
One broker was not available. He was showing planes all day. Fine. Talked with a nice assistant that assured me he would call back. I asked her what the price was and to shoot along the logs is all I needed, but I would take his call if he rather than just email me. Zero response to my call and follow up emails.
Sent 3 emails yesterday on 3 different planes. Zero answers, not even a auto generated email.
I generally send emails versus calling. I am just looking to see if the plane is still for sale since 75% of the time the plane is already under contract and if it is, can they send the logs. If I can get answers to both, then that tells me if I should call or walk away. Seems like I get about a 40% answer rate on emails. Phone calls are hit and miss. Most of the time its voicemail because they are with a customer or they just read me the ad that I already have in front of me. Just happened to me. He pulled up the ad and read it to me verbatim. How do you think I found the number to call you? And then nothing about the 4 years of no annuals or the 15 hours total use since 2010 that was in the logs. Was it pickled correctly? Why was it not in annual for years? I was looking for the extra information/sales pitch, not what the paint was out of 10.

For potential sellers-
10 good recent pictures. 2 to 3 of the panel, 2 to 3 of the interior and exterior.
List of the avionics. King IFR stack doesn't help me much, nor IFR certified with no other info.
Engine OH time as well as hours. 200 SMOH sounds great until you have to contact them and find out the OH was 1997
Online link to the logs.

Have those things in an easy to find way, and it should reduce idiots like me calling until they are serious.


I am sure there are a list of things that buyers do that irritate the sellers also.

You forgot my pet peeve. LIST THE USEFUL LOAD


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You'd think but no, prob 90% of adds omit it.


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For some models (172, PA28) I dont really expect that. But Bonanza/Mooney types Useful and even CG are very valid things to add to the ad.

While I am ranting away, I wish TAP and the other sites had a way to search if a plane has an AP. I am aware of many types of AP's out there, but if I am narrowing down my search, having a check box that says AP or no AP would help.
 
That sounds like a broker who's not likely to see any return sales, or perhaps even make many sales to begin with. The home analogy would be to put your earnest money and bank guarantee of funding (or pure cash for the house) into escrow before you're allowed to walk through the house and perform an inspection. i can guarantee you that most, if not all, prospective home owners would tell a real estate agent to go "pound sand." Likewise, I would have told this broker the same. In my opinion, they are there to EARN my money. I don't have to throw my money at them to beg them to let me see an aircraft tied-down on the ramp or in a hangar somewhere.
I don't know, I do know that I never treated customers or clients that way. It is difficult to understand unless they are trying to sell airplanes many miles away and don't have someone local to show the thing. I guess he must be doing some business or why bother. One thing this has taught me is: IF I were to ever use a broker(doubtful with the small iron I would be selling) I would have a pilot buddy pose as buyer just to see if I was getting anything for my commission.
 
The airplane was 250 miles away and I still had access to my Tiger for another week, so I called him back and told him I was planning to come look at it, at his convenience. He said: "so are you offering to purchase for $86K?" (that was the Barnstormer's asking price). I said "not yet, I just want to look at the aircraft and the logbooks if it checks out OK I'll make an offer. I AM flying 500miles roundtrip just to look...".

I am not going to fly to "view an airplane", unless it is really close by, and then I may come to only "view" it. I want to see the logs before I make an offer, and put money in escrow. Once in escrow, I am coming to do a pre-buy inspection with the idea, I am buying if it checks out. BUT, I WILL do my homework before getting to that point. If you won't allow me to do my homework, I don't want your plane at any price!
 
For potential sellers-
10 good recent pictures. 2 to 3 of the panel, 2 to 3 of the interior and exterior.
List of the avionics. King IFR stack doesn't help me much, nor IFR certified with no other info.
Engine OH time as well as hours. 200 SMOH sounds great until you have to contact them and find out the OH was 1997
Online link to the logs.

There are a lot of lazy sellers out there... and buyers too! Planes are not like cars where you place an ad, hope people call, and then be as vague as possible... For some $20 -$50 thousand dollars is a lot of money for a toy plus the added expense for logistics etc... and on going ownership cost.

When selling something I believe I can weed out the tire kickers from the serious "yes I am looking and have the money to buy" people pretty quick by the questions they are asking.
That said, I would not continue a conversation with a seller that is not willing to answer my questions as they are going to be very specific to that aircraft, nor willing to electronically share logbook info etc... I won't even spend the $10 to get the FAA file until And, if they are a broker this is what they are being paid for it should be ready to send during the phone conversation. I just walked from a conversation, 1000 miles away, where the seller was not willing to comply with some of my request...said that we'll work it after the pre-buy inspection.... After explaining to them that I just can't jump in the car and head on over to take a look... well!!!!

Here is an example of a broker/seller doing their work... scroll down and the log books are there... by having this, many of my questions were answered prior to making the initial call.. but the price... well no thanks.
https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/17867975/1978-piper-tomahawk
 
AirMart is by far the best broker website I have seen. They list everything you are looking for, logs, full descriptions, etc.

But some people do think their planes are worth more than they really are. I know of a few planes on my field that are sitting and rotting away because sellers won't accept any offers below what they think there plane is worth. They pay the tie down fee every month, pay the insurance. But they don't use the plane. And whether it be there pride of ownership or ego of over valuing the plane. They let it sit.
 
AirMart is by far the best broker website I have seen. They list everything you are looking for, logs, full descriptions, etc.

But some people do think their planes are worth more than they really are. I know of a few planes on my field that are sitting and rotting away because sellers won't accept any offers below what they think there plane is worth. They pay the tie down fee every month, pay the insurance. But they don't use the plane. And whether it be there pride of ownership or ego of over valuing the plane. They let it sit.

Yep. I have given my wife the name of several folks that if something happens to me, get with them and sell the plane. DO NOT try to make a killing or get what I have in it, just sell it for what the market will bare, even perhaps up to $5-8K below the Vref pricing. Letting it sit is a losing proposition.
 
Call for useful load.

Very funny. And I do.

But one is an objective characteristic of the aircraft, the other is not.


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AirMart is by far the best broker website I have seen. They list everything you are looking for, logs, full descriptions, etc
That is really impressive.
 
I recently sold a used airplane and bought a different used airplane. I did notice a few sellers and brokers(mostly brokers) that were different from 15 years ago. First the "call for price" gambit. I called several of these types of ads; they were all brokers. Never talked to an owner/seller who had that in the ad. Broker spends time explaining to you that you don't really understand the used a/c market and his price is really a bargain... just reduced, etc.

The other weird thing that I noticed was this: 1) I called the broker, he quoted me a price. The ad had 7 photos of fair quality, and a 1/2 page description/equip list. No engine or airframe mx log pages. No other info. I asked for scanned logbook pages and the broker said that he got so many deadbeats/tirekickers that he doesn't bother forwarding this info until the deal process is "father along". This Broker had probably 20 airplanes listed online at this time, seemed like a legit operation.

The airplane was 250 miles away and I still had access to my Tiger for another week, so I called him back and told him I was planning to come look at it, at his convenience. He said: "so are you offering to purchase for $86K?" (that was the Barnstormer's asking price). I said "not yet, I just want to look at the aircraft and the logbooks if it checks out OK I'll make an offer. I AM flying 500miles roundtrip just to look...".

He chuckled and said: "it doesn't work that way. The way it works is: you peruse the ad and decide on a fair price, you make the offer, if the owner is OK with it, you PUT THE MONEY IN ESCROW, and come look look at it.

I said: "wait, you seriously are refusing to let me see the aircraft until I put $86K in escrow with your company connected to the account?

He said "we can probably negotiate the pre-purchase escrow funds down somewhat. But I really don't have time to meet with every Tom, Dick & Harry who want to look at and sit in a used a/c, but has neither the means nor the immediate plans to buy anything"

I said: "FYI, I am in the process of completing the sale of my existing aircraft. Even before the sale completes, I am liquid enough to purchase this aircraft with cash".

He said, "that's great for you, and I'm sure you are telling the truth, but like I said before, go ahead and do the escrow deposit and we can continue. Do you want me to email instructions?"

I said: "look, I don't wan't to put you out, but it is ENOUGH TROUBLE to visit the a/c, possibly hire an a&p to check it with me, before you let me see the aircraft and logs! I don't intend to visit my bank, tie up funds, possibly wastee more of my time, just to get your permission to see the thing. Does your seller know that you are driving off potential buyers with this policy?"

He said: "you might not understand, but most of our sellers are busier than we are. They appreciate our professionalism; that's why they select us".

I didn't say anything more, just hung up the phone. I ended up finding an buying the same model a/c, a Vans, about 10 days later and about half the distance away. Lucked out a bit on that.

My impression of this broker outfit, is, it signs up the aircaft, advertises it online, and waits for a "live one" to come along, as long as the "live one" doesn't require more that a 60 sec phone call or a couple of texts. Absolutely no getting up from the chair until the sale is "father along".

end of rant. Good news is, the purchase worked out fine with a private seller.

Just a thought, but it might have been interesting to get the owners name, give them a call and let them know of your experience. I wonder if they know how the broker treats potential customers.
 
Just a thought, but it might have been interesting to get the owners name, give them a call and let them know of your experience. I wonder if they know how the broker treats potential customers.
Yeah, kinda of wish I would have looked at doing that. The broker actually had two a/c that I was interested in, that I was not allowed to see. I can't remember if the N numbers were obscured on the for sale aircraft. I did see ads like that. Even with registration info, it is often difficult to locate an owner's phone number. i guarantee the broker would not have given it to me. Anyway, I had limited time and wanted to find an aircraft during my days off. And I did :).
 
You forgot my pet peeve. LIST THE USEFUL LOAD


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For most certified planes, that's pretty easy info to get and be in the ballpark. I know it varies from plane to plane, but is the variance within the same model going to be more than 30-40 lbs?
 
For most certified planes, that's pretty easy info to get and be in the ballpark. I know it varies from plane to plane, but is the variance within the same model going to be more than 30-40 lbs?

Nope, there are 4 seat models that can vary by over 100, which makes quite a difference. AC, FIKI, lots of avionics, upgraded interiors can really chip away at useful load.


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