This is why GA is going to die ...

txflyer

txflyer

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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
A simple carburetor airbox bracket Cessna #0750133-9... $248.00 (each) and you need two (2).

The one pictured below is not the exact part, I couldn't find a picture of it, but it's similar in size and character ....

:nonod:


mP7rNkxRzINq1HsyAWOcrcw.jpg
 
That is a nice looking bracket though.
 
I paid about that much last year for a little gas cylinder for my co-pilot seat height adjust. Pretty ridiculous.

Non pilot people I talk to about GA are often interested right up to where we start talking about what it really costs...
 
I bought an emergency lighting battery pack for my Citation about 8 years ago, it was $1800.00!:yikes::yikes: I went by the shop and the mechanic showed me the old part and asked me what I thought it looked like. I told him 8 AA batteries shrink wrapped together with a couple wires sticking out. He said, "BINGO"!:mad2::mad2: That was when I decided I wasn't cut out to own a Citation and I sold it!:D

cowman said:
I paid about that much last year for a little gas cylinder for my co-pilot seat height adjust. Pretty ridiculous.

Non pilot people I talk to about GA are often interested right up to where we start talking about what it really costs...
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txflyer said:
A simple carburetor airbox bracket Cessna #0750133-9... $248.00 (each) and you need two (2).

The one pictured below is not the exact part, I couldn't find a picture of it, but it's similar in size and character ....

:nonod:


mP7rNkxRzINq1HsyAWOcrcw.jpg
Click to expand...

You can cut one out of the identical material, fold, mark, and drill it to match and provide it to your A&P as owner produced part to install, completely legal.

You can complain, or you can use your brain.
 
You have it wrong. That isn't why General Aviation is going to die. It is why Certified Airplanes are going away. There are more experimentals being added to the N number registry each year than all the certified manufacturers put together. That $248 bracket would cost someone who was flying an experimental less than $1 to make and they can install it themselvs without having to pay a mechanic $80 an hour.

Keith
 
If it were as simple as the one I illustrated, we'd make it of coarse, but it's not that simple.

The one we need rivets to a through rod going through the airbox on each side holding the flapper valve that goes from filtered air to carb heat.

A&P said we'd make mine work. He'd prefer new parts because the holes get wallered out, but we'll make it work. We do have brains...
 
kmacht said:
You have it wrong. That isn't why General Aviation is going to die. It is why Certified Airplanes are going away. There are more experimentals being added to the N number registry each year than all the certified manufacturers put together. That $248 bracket would cost someone who was flying an experimental less than $1 to make and they can install it themselvs without having to pay a mechanic $80 an hour.

Keith
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If owners had to self maintain, THAT would kill GA. Most pilots are not capable, nor desiring, of doing their own maintenance. I wish they would speed up the Experimental Non Commercial category and have it match the 6000lb restriction to match the medical exemption. That could have a significant effect if we could upgrade the GA fleet with the G3X and other Experimental priced avionics. Avionics is the greatest cost advantage to Experimental.

Parts like above are priced for stupid rich people. Under our rules of business, you have to expect them to ask what the market will bear. Since TXFlyer is willing and able to pay that price, it is the correct price under the rules of the society that he he also profits from. The same option to produce this part that an experimental owner has, a certified aircraft owner has as well, altough I figure the value to build both about $45 including the engraving. If I walked into a shop and had them made, if someone was charging $100 for the pair, they would not be being unfair since they will be custom work.
 
N747JB said:
I bought an emergency lighting battery pack for my Citation about 8 years ago, it was $1800.00!:yikes::yikes: I went by the shop and the mechanic showed me the old part and asked me what I thought it looked like. I told him 8 AA batteries shrink wrapped together with a couple wires sticking out. He said, "BINGO"!:mad2::mad2: That was when I decided I wasn't cut out to own a Citation and I sold it!:D
Click to expand...

I understand completely.....

My neighbor with the CJ-4 replaced his battery... New one was a Lithium unit.. About the same dimension as my Optima Red Top AGM unit.... He was happy.... till the invoice came in .. Over $ 21,000.00... For ONE battery that's maybe 12" long , 8" wide and 10" deep......:yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::hairraise::hairraise::hairraise:......:redface:
 
$40.00 for a brake
image_17317.jpg
make as many as you want
 
Now suppose I have a few owner fabricated parts in my airplane and I want to sell it. Is that a problem? What if a potential buyer wants it for commercial or training ops?
 
An airplane is no better than its "Owners Group", Hundreds of owners willing to help you and group purchases, group fabricating and more advantages than I can put in a single post.

I own a Commander for this very reason; We do not even have a factory to rape us. I like it this way.

Life is a barrel of fun.

Ken Andrew
 
cowman said:
Now suppose I have a few owner fabricated parts in my airplane and I want to sell it. Is that a problem? What if a potential buyer wants it for commercial or training ops?
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Not under current regs.
 
N801BH said:
I understand completely.....

My neighbor with the CJ-4 replaced his battery... New one was a Lithium unit.. About the same dimension as my Optima Red Top AGM unit.... He was happy.... till the invoice came in .. Over $ 21,000.00... For ONE battery that's maybe 12" long , 8" wide and 10" deep......:yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::hairraise::hairraise::hairraise:......:redface:
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Holy sheep sheet, Batman!

Makes me feel really glad that if I really have to, I can go to Walmart and get a motorcycle battery for less than one Benjamin that would work fine in my RV6 and probably last for more than a year even though I'd rather have an Odessey battery for a couple hundred that would last for several years.
 
kmacht said:
You have it wrong. That isn't why General Aviation is going to die. It is why Certified Airplanes are going away. There are more experimentals being added to the N number registry each year than all the certified manufacturers put together. That $248 bracket would cost someone who was flying an experimental less than $1 to make and they can install it themselvs without having to pay a mechanic $80 an hour.

Keith
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Problem with experimentals is the lack of suitable 4 seat models
$200K + years labor for an RV-10. nice plane certainly. But, why isn't there a kit that copies a C-182, C-172, PA-28-181? Pull all of the rivets from one of these, copy the sheet metal. I can buy a 1967 Camaro Z-28 clone kit, why not a 1982 PA-28-181?
 
There is the Cyclone that copies the Cessna 180 that you could put on 182 gear.
 
Henning said:
If owners had to self maintain, THAT would kill GA. Most pilots are not capable, nor desiring, of doing their own maintenance. I wish they would speed up the Experimental Non Commercial category and have it match the 6000lb restriction to match the medical exemption. That could have a significant effect if we could upgrade the GA fleet with the G3X and other Experimental priced avionics. Avionics is the greatest cost advantage to Experimental.

Parts like above are priced for stupid rich people. Under our rules of business, you have to expect them to ask what the market will bear. Since TXFlyer is willing and able to pay that price, it is the correct price under the rules of the society that he he also profits from. The same option to produce this part that an experimental owner has, a certified aircraft owner has as well, altough I figure the value to build both about $45 including the engraving. If I walked into a shop and had them made, if someone was charging $100 for the pair, they would not be being unfair since they will be custom work.
Click to expand...



Jesus Christ H. in two posts you've hinted I have no brain, I'm stupid, and I'm rich.

At least you got one right.

If you read my second post, we won't be buying the stupid rich person's parts. We'll make mine work. How do you think I got rich? Now go **** yourself ... :raspberry:
 
txflyer said:
Jesus Christ H. in two posts you've hinted I have no brain, I'm stupid, and I'm rich.

At least you got one right.

If you read my second post, we won't be buying the stupid rich person's parts. We'll make mine work. How do you think I got rich? Now go **** yourself ... :raspberry:
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I said no such thing, I said that is what that parts market markets too. Since you did not buy the part, you do not fit the demographic.
 
Henning said:
I said no such thing, I said that is what that parts market markets too. Since you did not buy the part, you do not fit the demographic.
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No sweat. I should have put a grinning smiley after the **** off, cuz I was jerking your chain.

You're right. Only desperate rich hillbillies that don't work on their own planes would pay for it.

Doctor in beechcraftidus... ;):lol:
 
Henning said:
I said no such thing, I said that is what that parts market markets too.
Click to expand...

You really did say that.

Parts like above are priced for stupid rich people. Under our rules of business, you have to expect them to ask what the market will bear. Since TXFlyer is willing and able to pay that price, it is the correct price under the rules of the society that he he also profits from.
Click to expand...
 
The flapper itself is nowhere to be found with a price posted. Part #0750133-7

So all you Cessna carburetor flyers out there treat your airbox heat flappers like gold.

We're going to drill out and re-rivet new gasket material around it while we're at it. Cut and create our own, because the metal is good. :)
 
And yeah, if our skywagon was flying on an experimental budget, I'd be dancing a jig. :goofy:

That's why I started and said GA is going to die.

George Jetson nope. Not in our future. Not at $248 for a bracket no bigger than your finger. :nonod::D
 
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Maybe it's due to monopoly pricing.
 
cowman said:
Now suppose I have a few owner fabricated parts in my airplane and I want to sell it. Is that a problem? What if a potential buyer wants it for commercial or training ops?
Click to expand...

Your solution......fabricate your own parts....save the old ones.

When it comes time to sell....remove your fabricated parts and replace with the factory ones you saved.

This holds true to other (simple) things that you can replace with equiv auto parts stuff.

If you crash and die...or even live....NTSB will blame your piloting skills and won't give a second look at a bracket you fabricated yourself.;)
 
Question 6: Is there anything else a mechanic must do?
 Answer 6: The mechanic must ensure that the owner produced part meets form, fit, and function, and within reasonable limits, ensure that the part does meet its approved type design (e.g. like looking at the approved data used to make the part). Then the mechanic installs the part on the aircraft, makes an operational check if applicable and signs off the required section 43.9 maintenance entry.


Since you are creating a "same as from the factory" part that was produced with the same methods by someone in the factory, would you not take the time to pull out the metal stamp set and stamp the parts number on the part? Then why take the part off the plane to when it gets sold? It is the exactly the same (maybe even better) than the factory part.


Question 9: What happens to the owner produced part on the aircraft if the original owner sells the aircraft?
Answer 9: Unless the part is no longer airworthy, the original owner produced part stays on the aircraft.


There is no magic pixie dust that that the factory put on a part that makes it better than the bent aluminum with holes that the owner produced. The reason it cost so much is they probably don't have one in stock and someone has to go pull a drawing and spend some time on the drill press and brake, then label and ship. This whole thread has more time invested than it would to create the part. The data to produce the part is the existing part.
 
RotorAndWing said:
The FAA is selling Cessna parts?? :dunno:



Wow, who would have thunk it? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...


FAA creates the regulatory scenario, creating a barrier to entry and a false scarcity, that makes it fiscally unwise to be in the parts game. Or you play the "owner produced part" game. There's no other possible explanation for a $200 bracket. If there were truly open competition in the market, the market couldn't sustain the price tag.
 
denverpilot said:
There's no other possible explanation for a $200 bracket. If there were truly open competition in the market, the market couldn't sustain the price tag.
Click to expand...

Actually, there is. It was well described above-

The reason it cost so much is they probably don't have one in stock and someone has to go pull a drawing and spend some time on the drill press and brake, then label and ship.
Click to expand...

The "factory" parts are made the same way you would make it yourself. By hand. Then they want a mark up to make it worth their while and potential liability. I think it's ridiculous how people see simple airplane parts and expect to see NAPA auto parts prices on them.

An alternative to making the part yourself, or buying from Cessna is to have one made for you at a metal fabrication shop. Still meets the requirements for owner produced and likely you could get it done for half of what Cessna wants.

What I really wish could happen is for companies like Cessna, Piper, Mooney, etc to release the technical drawings for parts for old obsolete airplanes that they don't really want to support anymore into the public domain so that we don't have to reverse engineer and better still, enthusiasts could make digital CAD files and share them.

Of course Cessna really doesn't want all these old airplanes around. Every time a vintage Cessna is scraped, the legal and accounting guys a Textron get a little smile on their faces. That is likely a bit of the high pricing strategy as well. Every time a plane gets into a minor incident like a gear up or hard landing on the nose gear, or something, the repair costs end up being higher than the plane is worth and again the folks at Textron are giddy.
 
Dav8or said:
Actually, there is. It was well described above-



The "factory" parts are made the same way you would make it yourself. By hand. Then they want a mark up to make it worth their while and potential liability. I think it's ridiculous how people see simple airplane parts and expect to see NAPA auto parts prices on them.

An alternative to making the part yourself, or buying from Cessna is to have one made for you at a metal fabrication shop. Still meets the requirements for owner produced and likely you could get it done for half of what Cessna wants.

What I really wish could happen is for companies like Cessna, Piper, Mooney, etc to release the technical drawings for parts for old obsolete airplanes that they don't really want to support anymore into the public domain so that we don't have to reverse engineer and better still, enthusiasts could make digital CAD files and share them.

Of course Cessna really doesn't want all these old airplanes around. Every time a vintage Cessna is scraped, the legal and accounting guys a Textron get a little smile on their faces. That is likely a bit of the high pricing strategy as well. Every time a plane gets into a minor incident like a gear up or hard landing on the nose gear, or something, the repair costs end up being higher than the plane is worth and again the folks at Textron are giddy.
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Maybe not for this particular part, but you do realize there are identical, and I mean identical, parts on my aircraft that CAN be purchased, not only at NAPA auto parts prices, but also at NAPA Auto parts.

Additionally that bracket wasn't made by hand. No way. They send out a drawing and a machine shop runs a batch. Whole batch probably cost $5/part. If even that much.

The only thing keeping them off the aircraft is that they're not legal to use.

The pricing strategy at Textron is well-documented.

Management switch brought in former General Electric guys and they are claiming that they're pricing parts to include all costs associated with them.

They're apparently not willing to release the engineering specs on them, however. So they're more than happy to pocket the profits.

Kinda shoots down the whole "accountants are happy" thing. They were happy when they changed the policy.
 
denverpilot said:
Maybe not for this particular part, but you do realize there are identical, and I mean identical, parts on my aircraft that CAN be purchased, not only at NAPA auto parts prices, but also at NAPA Auto parts.
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Identical design maybe. Identical quality, not a chance. Certified aviation parts have to be fully documented down to the nuts and bolts as well as the metal suppliers and the quality of metal. In addition, these parts carry great liability that they don't see in automotive use. This means that the quality control on PMAed parts is a magnitude better. In the automotive world, a certain amount of failure in field is acceptable and carries little liability other than warranty expense. Make 'em fast and close enough, then let the consumer do the QC.

Additionally that bracket wasn't made by hand. No way. They send out a drawing and a machine shop runs a batch. Whole batch probably cost $5/part. If even that much.
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Bull crap. Why would Cessna make "a batch"? How many of these old planes are out there flying? How many are likely to need this part in the next year? The next five years? How much is a "batch" to you?

I guaranty that if you contract to make 100 of these parts from a drawing with a machine shop in this country, there is no way it's going to be $5 a part. Add in the paperwork, reporting and federal inspection required, and the price goes up. Toss in personal liability to the machine shop and the price goes up further.

Management switch brought in former General Electric guys and they are claiming that they're pricing parts to include all costs associated with them.

They're apparently not willing to release the engineering specs on them, however. So they're more than happy to pocket the profits.

Kinda shoots down the whole "accountants are happy" thing. They were happy when they changed the policy.
Click to expand...

How does this "shoot down" the accountants are happy thing"?? :confused::dunno: The parts prices are high, there is no burden of inventory and planes get scrapped. From Textron's perspective, what's not to love? Why would they release the engineering specs on them? That just means more planes will keep flying with owner produced parts and that's contrary to what they want to happen with these old birds.
 
Dav8or said:
Identical design maybe. Identical quality, not a chance. Certified aviation parts have to be fully documented down to the nuts and bolts as well as the metal suppliers and the quality of metal. In addition, these parts carry great liability that they don't see in automotive use. This means that the quality control on PMAed parts is a magnitude better. In the automotive world, a certain amount of failure in field is acceptable and carries little liability other than warranty expense. Make 'em fast and close enough, then let the consumer do the QC.
.
Click to expand...


If you think documentation = quality, or if the parts with the FAA sticker don't come off the exact same machine and the exact same assembly line, we're done here.

Enjoy that alternator belt with higher "quality" because someone wrote a PMA number on it with a sharpie and threw it in the other box.

We can discuss further once you figure it out.
 
Dav8or said:
Identical design maybe. Identical quality, not a chance. Certified aviation parts have to be fully documented down to the nuts and bolts as well as the metal suppliers and the quality of metal. In addition, these parts carry great liability that they don't see in automotive use. This means that the quality control on PMAed parts is a magnitude better. In the automotive world, a certain amount of failure in field is acceptable and carries little liability other than warranty expense. Make 'em fast and close enough, then let the consumer do the QC.



Bull crap. Why would Cessna make "a batch"? How many of these old planes are out there flying? How many are likely to need this part in the next year? The next five years? How much is a "batch" to you?

I guaranty that if you contract to make 100 of these parts from a drawing with a machine shop in this country, there is no way it's going to be $5 a part. Add in the paperwork, reporting and federal inspection required, and the price goes up. Toss in personal liability to the machine shop and the price goes up further.



How does this "shoot down" the accountants are happy thing"?? :confused::dunno: The parts prices are high, there is no burden of inventory and planes get scrapped. From Textron's perspective, what's not to love? Why would they release the engineering specs on them? That just means more planes will keep flying with owner produced parts and that's contrary to what they want to happen with these old birds.
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:yeahthat:


denverpilot said:
We can discuss further once you figure it out.
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Actually he's hit the nail on the head. :yesnod:
 
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