Thinking of installing a DME

Morgan3820

Morgan3820

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I have decided that a IFR GPS is just not in the cards for me given my limited means. I would like the ability to file IFR. I will be starting IR training shortly. To that end I was thinking of installing a DME.

But I am confused. The spec's for the King KN 64, says that it is a non-TSO'd unit. Yet I know, from an old w&B that my PA-28-161 had a KN 64 installed at one time. I thought that a non-TSO'd unit could only be installed in experimental aircraft? What am I missing? The TSO version is a KN 62A...at twice the price, used.
 
My guess is $$

Personally I think turboprops with glass panels are the future, but until someone buys me a new porter for Christmas, the future will have to wait ;)
 
The real question is how much will you spend to buy and install an old DME unit?

You can install a stand-alone IFR GPS for about the same or less. Such as an Apollo 2001 NMS. They can be found for about $800, take about 8 hours to install if you already have suitable panel space and are using a dedicated MD40-65L indicator, and they are IFR approach approved. Garmin 155XL is also available but around $3k installed with a dedicated indicator, a little more with a switching relay.
 
Get a Garmin non certified GPS like a 696 or 796.
 
CTLSi said:
Get a Garmin non certified GPS like a 696 or 796.
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Other than additional situational awareness (plus on board weather if FIS-B equipped), that does absolutely nothing to help him in an IFR environment or expand his approach options.
 
GCA319 said:
Other than additional situational awareness (plus on board weather if FIS-B equipped), that does absolutely nothing to help him in an IFR environment or expand his approach options.
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Sure it does, it lets him shoot GPS approaches, and is far easier to nav between VORs if he must do the old fashioned thing. All the Jeppeson plates are in them also.

We assume he has a Navcom radio and CDI already of some kind.
 
CTLSi said:
Sure it does, it lets him shoot GPS approaches, and is far easier to nav between VORs if he must do the old fashioned thing. All the Jeppeson plates are in them also.

We assume he has a Navcom radio and CDI already of some kind.
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A 696 or 796 is not an approved GPS for IFR flight.
He can "shoot" all the approaches he wants in VMC, but not IMC on an IFR clearance.
 
you can get a used 64 dme off ebay for $5-600 and the install is easy, antenna and 3 wires. Lot of bang for the buck IF you are in an area where a lot of approaches are dependant on dme. I've done that on 2 of my planes.
 
philiplane said:
The real question is how much will you spend to buy and install an old DME unit?

You can install a stand-alone IFR GPS for about the same or less. Such as an Apollo 2001 NMS. They can be found for about $800, take about 8 hours to install if you already have suitable panel space and are using a dedicated MD40-65L indicator, and they are IFR approach approved. Garmin 155XL is also available but around $3k installed with a dedicated indicator, a little more with a switching relay.
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The issue with the 155 and the 300 is the display - it's hard to get them supported if something goes wrong, and in the heat / direct sunlight + age they do fail...(same situation with the apollo cx55/60 etc...not sure about the cx80/gns480 but those have comms so would be far more expensive to install)

I saw a gnc400 on barnstormers today for around $4k, I think - that is IFR GPS only (no comm so easier install) and will be supported longer and can upgrade to WAAS when the budget dictates
 
Morgan3820 said:
I have decided that a IFR GPS is just not in the cards for me given my limited means. I would like the ability to file IFR. I will be starting IR training shortly. To that end I was thinking of installing a DME.

But I am confused. The spec's for the King KN 64, says that it is a non-TSO'd unit. Yet I know, from an old w&B that my PA-28-161 had a KN 64 installed at one time. I thought that a non-TSO'd unit could only be installed in experimental aircraft? What am I missing? The TSO version is a KN 62A...at twice the price, used.
Click to expand...

No TSO required for Pt 91 ops, get the cheaper one.
 
I have a KN64. I bought it back 15 years ago when

1. I didn't have GPS.
2. Many approaches into my home field were ILS/DME
3. We used to buzz around the class B where a DME distance often is very useful.

Frankly, I've not turned it on in a long time. Part was the fact that I did get a GPS. The other problem is that DME is dying. The military doesn't give much concern to domestic TACAN and the FAA is officially phasing them out as well. A lot of stations are notam'd down even if they aren't officially out of service yet.

The DME was one of the biggest wastes of money I've made in aviation.
 
mrkbbd said:
The issue with the 155 and the 300 is the display - it's hard to get them supported if something goes wrong, and in the heat / direct sunlight + age they do fail...(same situation with the apollo cx55/60 etc...not sure about the cx80/gns480 but those have comms so would be far more expensive to install)

I saw a gnc400 on barnstormers today for around $4k, I think - that is IFR GPS only (no comm so easier install) and will be supported longer and can upgrade to WAAS when the budget dictates
Click to expand...

The guy is dreaming, at 4k for that thing he's getting close to a GNS430W price range.
 
A used non-WAAS GPS like a 430 will be affordable in a couple of years, if it isn't already cheap enough.

The avionics shop is giving me $3750 trade in credit for a used 430 right now, for an upgrade. They told me this value has recently started to diminish, and they expect it will continue to do so. That price includes the antenna.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I have decided that a IFR GPS is just not in the cards for me given my limited means. I would like the ability to file IFR. I will be starting IR training shortly. To that end I was thinking of installing a DME.
Click to expand...
You don't need a DME to file IFR unless you're planning to fly above FL 240 or the approaches at the airport to which you're going required DME (e.g., Easton MD KESN, where the only non-GPS approach is "DME REQUIRED").
But I am confused. The spec's for the King KN 64, says that it is a non-TSO'd unit. Yet I know, from an old w&B that my PA-28-161 had a KN 64 installed at one time. I thought that a non-TSO'd unit could only be installed in experimental aircraft? What am I missing? The TSO version is a KN 62A...at twice the price, used.
Click to expand...
Only certain avionics like GPS and transponder must be TSO'd. The rest (including nav/comms and DME's) do not. If you're not sure, ask your avionics shop.

That said, I think in the long run you'll be happier if you delay the purchase until you've saved enough for a GPS. Other than the situations I mentioned above, DME doesn't add that much to the party, and you can certainly do the IR training and practical test without it.
 
BillTIZ said:
A 696 or 796 is not an approved GPS for IFR flight.
He can "shoot" all the approaches he wants in VMC, but not IMC on an IFR clearance.
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Not even in VMC on an IFR clearance. He can play with that handheld to pretend to be flying a GPS approach only under VFR.
 
James331 said:
The guy is dreaming, at 4k for that thing he's getting close to a GNS430W price range.
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Not really - a gns430w is about $8500 + install - since it has a comm double the time it takes to install the 400
 
mrkbbd said:
Not really - a gns430w is about $8500 + install - since it has a comm double the time it takes to install the 400
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very true. I checked with 3 shops around Colorado and the cheapest was $8000. I never considere the non-comm versin...gotta rethink this.
 
murphey said:
very true. I checked with 3 shops around Colorado and the cheapest was $8000. I never considere the non-comm versin...gotta rethink this.
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The same shops that will take them in on trade for 3700 and change. I'm not making someone's condo payment :D

You can find 430s all day long on barnstormers and eBay for 5500-6 if you look for a week or so.

You can install it yourself under direct supervision of your A&P. Ain't rocket surgery.
 
James331 said:
The same shops that will take them in on trade for 3700 and change. I'm not making someone's condo payment :D

You can find 430s all day long on barnstormers and eBay for 5500-6 if you look for a week or so.

You can install it yourself under direct supervision of your A&P. Ain't rocket surgery.
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I would not recommend installing it yourself unless you are an electrical person...the wiring harnesses are very difficult to make correctly if you've never done it before. Garmin is also keeping the install manuals for approved shops, so you may have an issue getting the diagram. Plus you need the STC for your airplane. Garmin upped the sales minimums on a lot of places, so there are fewer Garmin dealers than there used to be and therefore manuals are harder to come by. Also, Garmin doesn't generally allow discounting, so it all comes down to the installation - also meaning the shops that have the manuals aren't likely to let you "use" them. Finally, with your install, you run the risk of doing something wrong and frying it and having no recourse or anyone to fix it for you.

It's also like anything else, you may find them for that price, but you get what you pay for. Factor in the tray and the antenna, and possibly a refurbish from Garmin (mind as well do a WAAS upgrade and get the warranty if you're going that route), and no warranty, you're back up to the $8500+ #

I'm hoping the prices come down, but with the delays on the IFD440 and the new King and a lot of people preferring the 430 to the 650, I don't see it falling all that much in the near future.

Also, factor in getting an indicator that is compatible
 
James331 said:
The same shops that will take them in on trade for 3700 and change. I'm not making someone's condo payment :D
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The shops are taking a risk - they are having to yellow tag and generally provide a 90 day or 1 year warranty on the unit. They are also in the business of making money, giving you a $3700 credit and doing the refurb and then selling takes time, money tied up. You can't expect to get the things for free. If you don't like the trade, sell it yourself, but I bet there are some other benefits, like a discount on labor, so factoring in your time and hassle it's probably a wash.
 
mrkbbd said:
I would not recommend installing it yourself unless you are an electrical person...the wiring harnesses are very difficult to make correctly if you've never done it before. Garmin is also keeping the install manuals for approved shops, so you may have an issue getting the diagram. Plus you need the STC for your airplane. Garmin upped the sales minimums on a lot of places, so there are fewer Garmin dealers than there used to be and therefore manuals are harder to come by. Also, Garmin doesn't generally allow discounting, so it all comes down to the installation - also meaning the shops that have the manuals aren't likely to let you "use" them. Finally, with your install, you run the risk of doing something wrong and frying it and having no recourse or anyone to fix it for you.

It's also like anything else, you may find them for that price, but you get what you pay for. Factor in the tray and the antenna, and possibly a refurbish from Garmin (mind as well do a WAAS upgrade and get the warranty if you're going that route), and no warranty, you're back up to the $8500+ #

I'm hoping the prices come down, but with the delays on the IFD440 and the new King and a lot of people preferring the 430 to the 650, I don't see it falling all that much in the near future.

Also, factor in getting an indicator that is compatible
Click to expand...

I'm not too worried about the install, and I've seen quite a few complete options on eBay with the harness, antenna, etc. I got no issue buying via paypal.

Just like cars, you got trade in, private party and retail, as much as what dealers would like you to think, those three degrees of pricing don't have much to do with quality, as they do profit.
 
James331 said:
I'm not too worried about the install, and I've seen quite a few complete options on eBay with the harness, antenna, etc. I got no issue buying via paypal.

Just like cars, you got trade in, private party and retail, as much as what dealers would like you to think, those three degrees of pricing don't have much to do with quality, as they do profit.
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Once you figure it out on yours, and it's working, please install one on mine :D
 
It's not like I'm the first dude to go down this path.

I got a few airplane things I'm planning on doing here in a little while, I'm confident a shop could get it done WAY faster than me.

That said, I've worked in electronics and can read a wiring diagram and solder, I know who to ask if I have questions, and I have every other week off so I have the time to sit down and do it right.

I'll also trust the power of paypal over some overpriced shops 1 week "warranty" if I get a dead unit.
 
James331 said:
It's not like I'm the first dude to go down this path.

I got a few airplane things I'm planning on doing here in a little while, I'm confident a shop could get it done WAY faster than me.

That said, I've worked in electronics and can read a wiring diagram and solder, I know who to ask if I have questions, and I have every other week off so I have the time to sit down and do it right.

I'll also trust the power of paypal over some overpriced shops 1 week "warranty" if I get a dead unit.
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I'm not trying to poke at you - I know I couldn't do it; However, you clearly have more experience than the average person on here so this is clearly a viable option.

If you do the install, please post some pics, possibly a tutorial so we can get a better understanding of what's involved.
 
teejayevans said:
I actually would like a DME as backup in case I lost my GPS, I used to have KNS-80 but replace it, when I looked for a used DME (I figure they would be cheap !?), from http://www.bennettavionics.com/dme.html
the prices are ~$2500 for 62A!?!
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Got an iPhone or Tablet? In my mind two GPS sources even if one isn't "approved" is better than one GPS and a DME.
 
James331 said:
The same shops that will take them in on trade for 3700 and change. I'm not making someone's condo payment :D

You can find 430s all day long on barnstormers and eBay for 5500-6 if you look for a week or so.

You can install it yourself under direct supervision of your A&P. Ain't rocket surgery.
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Fine. You come to Colorado, do the installand give me a year warranty if something goes wrong you'll come back, on your dime, to repair it.
 
frfly172 said:
Why,GPS is the future.
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Money, or lack of it. i like the gadgets as much as the next guy. I just cannot justify such an outlay for an item that would get used so infrequently when I have most of the needed old tech already installed? I looked at older ifr gps like the 300XL but given my panel space, I would lose my second nav, see pic. I really, really like my dash mounted mini with Foreflight, RAM mount to the right. It is with me everytime I leave the pattern. Most of ya'll are more dedicated to the craft than I am. My idea of fun is not landing in raining, dark and stormy nights at minimums. My motivation is to increase my departure rate on mvfr days and go vfr on top. My base is a class D with an ILS. Apparently, a DME is not all that useful, so I will place my limited funds elsewhere.

Thanks for the input!
 

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Morgan3820 said:
Money, or lack of it. i like the gadgets as much as the next guy. I just cannot justify such an outlay for an item that would get used so infrequently when I have most of the needed old tech already installed? I looked at older ifr gps like the 300XL but given my panel space, I would lose my second nav, see pic. I really, really like my dash mounted mini with Foreflight, RAM mount to the right. It is with me everytime I leave the pattern. Most of ya'll are more dedicated to the craft than I am. My idea of fun is not landing in raining, dark and stormy nights at minimums. My motivation is to increase my departure rate on mvfr days and go vfr on top. My base is a class D with an ILS. Apparently, a DME is not all that useful, so I will place my limited funds elsewhere.

Thanks for the input!
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A DME is in fact very useful, and the KN-64 would fit your stack quite nicely.
 
mrkbbd said:
I'm not trying to poke at you - I know I couldn't do it; However, you clearly have more experience than the average person on here so this is clearly a viable option.

If you do the install, please post some pics, possibly a tutorial so we can get a better understanding of what's involved.
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For sure!

I figure once the winter sets in Ill get crackn'

So far it's re upholster (which I'll take the seats and door panels to TJ) and a some panel improvements.

I'll take a bunch of photos and post em when the time comes.
 
you can do it cheaply if you try to

for me it was a garmin 300gps/com (no map) for $1200, indicator for $700, installation paperwork was a couple hundred and a horsetrade for some parts. I was /G legal for well under $2500. I tied it to the 396 which is the map, works great.

Here in our new home I use an airplane with a 430W and it does nothing practical for me that the cheapo setup in my travel air won't do.

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JHW said:
you can do it cheaply if you try to

for me it was a garmin 300gps/com (no map) for $1200, indicator for $700, installation paperwork was a couple hundred and a horsetrade for some parts. I was /G legal for well under $2500. I tied it to the 396 which is the map, works great.

Here in our new home I use an airplane with a 430W and it does nothing practical for me that the cheapo setup in my travel air won't do.

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How do you drive the 2nd nav? Do you have 2 nav/coms plus the garmin 300?
 
I still have my King 64 DME and no plans to remove it, Perhaps because I remember the days of setting up cross bearings when IFR. Also, I live under a Class B veil and the DME is always there.
 
mrkbbd said:
Garmin is also keeping the install manuals for approved shops, so you may have an issue getting the diagram. Plus you need the STC for your airplane. Garmin upped the sales minimums on a lot of places, so there are fewer Garmin dealers than there used to be and therefore manuals are harder to come by.
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I'll bet for half an AMU or so some Garmin shop will let somebody "borrow" the manual for a week. Then copy it. Then transfer it to a CDROM. Turn around and RENT the CDROM for a tenth of an AMU a week. Everybody makes a buck except the other Garmin shops.

Always a way around the back door of a problem.

Jim
 
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