Thinking About a Boat

Ted DuPuis said:
I wouldn't say 25' is too much, but if you have a 1/2-ton truck, it won't tow well.
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Pfft. I have a Ram 1500 and tow my 28', 7800Lb boat. The truck has the towing package, and a weight dist hitch with overload shocks/springs on the back. Does fine.
 
asechrest said:
I took my girlfriend and I on the jet ski out to a little island across the intracoastal over here in West Central FL on a bit of a blustery day a few weekends ago. It is clear that I need a real boat. :D
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Your ski is more of a hot-rod model. If you want to keep it in the jet ski realm there are newer Yamahas with the 4 stroke engine, and pretty heavy with a greater V draft that ride fairly well in the open. If you want to move up a bit to a boat, you're in an area where jet drives are pretty useful. Lots of sand bars around there, and some of them move. Of course, most of the big boats have outdrives, and they do just fine, but if you want to keep it simple, jet drives are low mx and easy to use, except for the fuel use.
 
docmirror said:
Your ski is more of a hot-rod model. If you want to keep it in the jet ski realm there are newer Yamahas with the 4 stroke engine, and pretty heavy with a greater V draft that ride fairly well in the open. If you want to move up a bit to a boat, you're in an area where jet drives are pretty useful. Lots of sand bars around there, and some of them move. Of course, most of the big boats have outdrives, and they do just fine, but if you want to keep it simple, jet drives are low mx and easy to use, except for the fuel use.
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Yamaha used to make a mini 'ITB' unit using their ski and around a 16' fiberglass RIB with a notch the ski could latch into. Do the still make that?
 
docmirror said:
Pfft. I have a Ram 1500 and tow my 28', 7800Lb boat. The truck has the towing package, and a weight dist hitch with overload shocks/springs on the back. Does fine.
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It depends on your definition of "fine."

I come from the 3/4-ton world, where going 70 down the highway effortlessly and not being able to tell the trailer was there, with still decent acceleration with trailer, was the norm.
 
asechrest said:
I took my girlfriend and I on the jet ski out to a little island across the intracoastal over here in West Central FL on a bit of a blustery day a few weekends ago. It is clear that I need a real boat. :D
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There are also the mini jet boats (basically oversized, twin-engine jet skis) that could be worth consideration. As I recall, you have a Corolla and not a truck.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It depends on your definition of "fine."

I come from the 3/4-ton world, where going 70 down the highway effortlessly and not being able to tell the trailer was there, with still decent acceleration with trailer, was the norm.
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I take it over hwy 50 or I-70 in CO. I can go 70 if I want, but the fuel use is outrageous, so I typically go 60-ish. I've had 3/4 ton, and 1 ton trucks. Bigger brakes, lower gears, heavy springs and shocks all help, but a 1/2 ton will tow a 25' boat and trailer just fine. By fine I mean it'll do anything legal he wants to do with it on the road. We started this in another thread, and wound up(as always) telling the guy to get a Peterbilt.
 
If you don't want to tow a lot, a 1/2 ton works out, if you tow a lot, 3/4 ton pays off. It's just a matter of accelerated wear as long as the stability is ok, and the stability can be addressed with a few hundred dollars of aftermarket parts.

Also 3/4 tons hold resale value better.
 
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docmirror said:
I take it over hwy 50 or I-70 in CO. I can go 70 if I want, but the fuel use is outrageous, so I typically go 60-ish. I've had 3/4 ton, and 1 ton trucks. Bigger brakes, lower gears, heavy springs and shocks all help, but a 1/2 ton will tow a 25' boat and trailer just fine. By fine I mean it'll do anything legal he wants to do with it on the road. We started this in another thread, and wound up(as always) telling the guy to get a Peterbilt.
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My wife and I have already figured that a Kenworth will tow our 50' express cruiser just fine, and allow us to continue trailer boating.

Again, it depends on your definition of fine. I've never liked 1/2-ton trucks, and towing my boat has just shown that to be true. The only reason we haven't upgraded is that this truck is in good shape.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My wife and I have already figured that a Kenworth will tow our 50' express cruiser just fine, and allow us to continue trailer boating.

Again, it depends on your definition of fine. I've never liked 1/2-ton trucks, and towing my boat has just shown that to be true.
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An FL-50 will as well, doesn't require a CDL, and gets 3 times the fuel efficiency.
 
Henning said:
An FL-50 will as well, doesn't require a CDL, and gets 3 times the fuel efficiency.
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A CDL isn't required if you tell the DOT to go to hell. :D

Good point. 50' SeaRay and an FL50. Problem solved.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
A CDL isn't required if you tell the DOT to go to hell. :D

Good point. 50' SeaRay and an FL50. Problem solved.
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A lot of the offshore race boat teams have gone to them, they work well. DO NOT get a fly bridge on the 50 if you want to trailer it. It makes loading a 4 day, 4 man, evolution.:lol:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My wife and I have already figured that a Kenworth will tow our 50' express cruiser just fine, and allow us to continue trailer boating.

Again, it depends on your definition of fine. I've never liked 1/2-ton trucks, and towing my boat has just shown that to be true. The only reason we haven't upgraded is that this truck is in good shape.
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On one of my trips to Lake Powell, the roads are rather primitive out there in the desert. We were towing our cruiser along, and I came up on a massive tractor rig towing this massive 44' x 16' houseboat. He was going ~30MPH. No way to pass anywhere. It took a while to get to the lake that night.
 
docmirror said:
Your ski is more of a hot-rod model. If you want to keep it in the jet ski realm there are newer Yamahas with the 4 stroke engine, and pretty heavy with a greater V draft that ride fairly well in the open. If you want to move up a bit to a boat, you're in an area where jet drives are pretty useful. Lots of sand bars around there, and some of them move. Of course, most of the big boats have outdrives, and they do just fine, but if you want to keep it simple, jet drives are low mx and easy to use, except for the fuel use.
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Yeah. With two people my ski is also relatively unstable side-to-side at low speeds, so if I don't keep the speed up I risk rolling it. But keeping the speed up in decent seas interesting. Fun for me, maybe not so much for her. The worst part really was getting to the island and seeing that people had put up a shelter and pulled out grills and coolers. All we had room to carry was a soft-sided glorified lunchbox. :D

Henning said:
Yamaha used to make a mini 'ITB' unit using their ski and around a 16' fiberglass RIB with a notch the ski could latch into. Do the still make that?
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I've seen them used, branded as a Shuttlecraft. I've heard they're a bit of a dog but it looks interesting. I might would do that it if the price was right and I found one reasonably local.

Ted DuPuis said:
There are also the mini jet boats (basically oversized, twin-engine jet skis) that could be worth consideration. As I recall, you have a Corolla and not a truck.
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Correct. 1,500 lb towing capacity.
 
Henning said:
If you don't want to tow a lot, a 1/2 ton works out, if you tow a lot, 3/4 ton pays off. It's just a matter of accelerated wear as long as the stability is ok, and the stability can be addressed with a few hundred dollars of aftermarket parts.

Also 3/4 tons hold resale value better.
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Agreed, again. 1/2 ton trucks are fine for infrequent towing near max GCWR. However, if you are doing it every other weekend for 6-8months of the year, I'd be going 3/4-1 ton with a 8K+ load. Same goes for hauling the 12-15Klbs boats. Sometimes you can get it done for 2-3 trips a year with a 1-ton dually, but I'd be looking at a chassis-cab/FL50 if I was having to do it more than a few trips each year.
 
I would advise against the jet boats for anything you are going to keep moored in the water. Also, outboards are easier to flush if salt/brackish water is a concern.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Agreed, again. 1/2 ton trucks are fine for infrequent towing near max GCWR. However, if you are doing it every other weekend for 6-8months of the year, I'd be going 3/4-1 ton with a 8K+ load. Same goes for hauling the 12-15Klbs boats. Sometimes you can get it done for 2-3 trips a year with a 1-ton dually, but I'd be looking at a chassis-cab/FL50 if I was having to do it more than a few trips each year.
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I used to haul 25-37' sailboats from SoCal to Midwest lakes (Table Rock, Truman, Kentucky...) to sell them. I'd use my 97 Dodge Cummins 2500. The Oday 37' was truly pushing the limits through the mountains, and I had to cross the desert at night. Coming down out of Albuquerque got into an ice storm, that was interesting. Catalina 25s and 27s or similar Hunters, they were no problem. That was good money at the time. Not sure how the MW sailboat market is now. You can find tons of nearly new use wise (few hundred hours total use) that see a pro maintainer onboard at least once a month for cheap in Sn Diego especially, but all the way up to LA and SF as well. It's just too cold to be fun. A dude in ElCajon would build me a trailer for anything I could pull for $2500. I haul a set back east and park it strategically and it would sell in a week and leave a good bit of room in the local market.
 
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asechrest said:
Yeah. With two people my ski is also relatively unstable side-to-side at low speeds, so if I don't keep the speed up I risk rolling it. But keeping the speed up in decent seas interesting. Fun for me, maybe not so much for her. The worst part really was getting to the island and seeing that people had put up a shelter and pulled out grills and coolers. All we had room to carry was a soft-sided glorified lunchbox. :D


I've seen them used, branded as a Shuttlecraft. I've heard they're a bit of a dog but it looks interesting. I might would do that it if the price was right and I found one reasonably local.


Correct. 1,500 lb towing capacity.
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Have her hang on tight and do a couple donuts with the Kawa. Get it up on medium plane, turn it left about 15deg, then hard right, and goose the throttle. She'll prolly get tossed off like a bull rider. It's hilarious, but maybe not to her. Youtube has plenty of vids.

The deals that go around a jet ski to make it into a center console mini-boat are crap. Poorly made, and they ride horrible anyway. Don't bother.
 
docmirror said:
Have her hang on tight and do a couple donuts with the Kawa. Get it up on medium plane, turn it left about 15deg, then hard right, and goose the throttle. She'll prolly get tossed off like a bull rider. It's hilarious, but maybe not to her. Youtube has plenty of vids.

The deals that go around a jet ski to make it into a center console mini-boat are crap. Poorly made, and they ride horrible anyway. Don't bother.
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I'll tell her I learned that one on the internet. :rofl:
 
asechrest said:
Correct. 1,500 lb towing capacity.
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If you want to do a trailer, look at the mini jetski/jetboats. Otherwise, I think you're stuck with docking it or buying a truck. That said, if you're just looking at you and your girlfriend, you could buy an under 20' and be happy I'd bet.
 
docmirror said:
Your ski is more of a hot-rod model. If you want to keep it in the jet ski realm there are newer Yamahas with the 4 stroke engine, and pretty heavy with a greater V draft that ride fairly well in the open. If you want to move up a bit to a boat, you're in an area where jet drives are pretty useful. Lots of sand bars around there, and some of them move. Of course, most of the big boats have outdrives, and they do just fine, but if you want to keep it simple, jet drives are low mx and easy to use, except for the fuel use.
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Last summer we were flying home over bass strait at ~16k ft and one of the kid's friends spotted "a small boat in trouble". We told ATC what we were doing and dropped down for a look. It turned out to be a pair of jet skis that looked to be on a path from devonport to melbourne. That's a straight-line distance of about 230NM over some pretty rough water. They had racks mounted on the back of the jet skis like you'd expect to see on an ATV, holding fuel jerry cans and an esky. I made a couple low passes and they stopped, waved, gave us the thumbs-up so we continued on. IMO certifiably nuts, but it didn't seem to be their first rodeo.

Here's what that route looks like.
 

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Ted DuPuis said:
We are mostly fast idle with some period at 3000-3500 RPM. That'll get us mid 20s mph. Like you, more power would be wasted. We're also not sking yet or tubing above trolling speed (my 2 year old sits in the tube with me).
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Here's what you have to look forward to. I might suggest you don't have quite so many kids riding in the boat, they get antsy with the start-stop-start-stop. I'm the one in the water with her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r6DR5nyOoM
 
A little carb fiddling seems to have done the trick just fine for now. The mixture adjustment was fine, but the idle was a bit low. Screwed that in 1/2 turn and it did well, I'll probably do another 1/4 turn. The slight bog under rapid full throttle had a friend thinking that the main jets are a bit dirty and need some cleaning. I've got no desire to pull the carb apart, so as long as it runs fine for this season, I'll leave it alone.

TBI/electronic ignition is still on the want list, but I'm figuring for a winter project so I can take my time and not worry about it impacting summer use. Next on the summer list is a good wash'n'wax.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
A little carb fiddling seems to have done the trick just fine for now. The mixture adjustment was fine, but the idle was a bit low. Screwed that in 1/2 turn and it did well, I'll probably do another 1/4 turn. The slight bog under rapid full throttle had a friend thinking that the main jets are a bit dirty and need some cleaning. I've got no desire to pull the carb apart, so as long as it runs fine for this season, I'll leave it alone.

TBI/electronic ignition is still on the want list, but I'm figuring for a winter project so I can take my time and not worry about it impacting summer use. Next on the summer list is a good wash'n'wax.
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More likely you need to lose another inch or two off the prop pitch.
 
I used to hate carbs, but having had torn down and rebuilt at least a hundred of them in my life now, I like them a lot. They have soul :)

I have a lot of respect for the generation that figured out how to make the damn things.

Although..I really dislike motors with a carb for each cylinder. One big carb is a piece of cake compared to an inline-4 motorcycle with 4 carbs.
 
jesse said:
Although..I really dislike motors with a carb for each cylinder. One big carb is a piece of cake compared to an inline-4 motorcycle with 4 carbs.
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Well, that sounds tough to tune. Not like a V12 Lamborghini with SIX dual side draft Webers.

Carb tuning was a good 5-7 hours and at least a 12 pack. ;)

Eventually I had every carb jet Weber made, including a jet bore kit.
 
docmirror said:
Well, that sounds tough to tune. Not like a V12 Lamborghini with SIX dual side draft Webers.

Carb tuning was a good 5-7 hours and at least a 12 pack. ;)

Eventually I had every carb jet Weber made, including a jet bore kit.
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The worst I've ran into so far is my damn jetski. 3 cylinders and 3 carbs. Problem is you can't determine what adjustments should be made unless you're on the water...and you can't make the adjustments without removing the damn things...which you really have to pull it from the lake to be able to do.

I've got them "good enough" but I'm not really happy with it.

My boat is the same..3 cylinders and 3 carbs..but much easier to tune since I can just pop the cowling and tune in the middle of the lake. Runs perfect now.

A V12 with six carbs...sigh..I could probably build an airplane faster then I could get that figured out.
 
docmirror said:
Well, that sounds tough to tune. Not like a V12 Lamborghini with SIX dual side draft Webers.

Carb tuning was a good 5-7 hours and at least a 12 pack. ;)

Eventually I had every carb jet Weber made, including a jet bore kit.
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I feel your pain.......

I have just about every emulsion tube know to man, and six of every main jet, air corrector jet, pump jet and chokes for DCOE's and IDA's Weber carbs...

When they are right, it is magic... But you get gray hair doing it...:rolleyes2::redface:
 
jesse said:
The worst I've ran into so far is my damn jetski. 3 cylinders and 3 carbs. Problem is you can't determine what adjustments should be made unless you're on the water...and you can't make the adjustments without removing the damn things...which you really have to pull it from the lake to be able to do.

I've got them "good enough" but I'm not really happy with It.
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I've got a Kawasaki 1100STX with the triple Mikunis, but I haven't run into any issues with them. I removed the choke from them to install a primer kit (cold starts are a breeze), so if not in the water it will sometimes have a lean-runaway. However, going WOT momentarily normally fixes that.
 
jesse said:
I used to hate carbs, but having had torn down and rebuilt at least a hundred of them in my life now, I like them a lot. They have soul :)

I have a lot of respect for the generation that figured out how to make the damn things.
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I definitely agree that they have soul, and also that I have a great deal of respect for the people who figured out how to make them work.

That said, I still don't like the things. They have their purposes and work fine for things like lawn equipment or a setup when the builder wants something that's easy to assemble and doesn't mind tinkering. On any big engines that are simply supposed to work when you turn the key, there are a number of reasons why fuel injection is better. A setup like TBI has the advantage of being extremely simple and easy to diagnose when it does break while still providing the benefits.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I definitely agree that they have soul, and also that I have a great deal of respect for the people who figured out how to make them work.

That said, I still don't like the things. They have their purposes and work fine for things like lawn equipment or a setup when the builder wants something that's easy to assemble and doesn't mind tinkering. On any big engines that are simply supposed to work when you turn the key, there are a number of reasons why fuel injection is better. A setup like TBI has the advantage of being extremely simple and easy to diagnose when it does break while still providing the benefits.
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I respectfully disagree...

While a TBI set up is good, there are several points of failure that will stop the fun....:yikes::(..

They need a high pressure fuel pump,, those fail often...

They need a electrical connection and a brain ( computer) to keep the motor running... Including MAF, temp and other sensors... Those fail too..

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/carburetors/performance_2_barrels/parts/0-80583-1

Personally I went with a 2 barrel Holley on my deathtrap... If it has fuel in the bowl, the simple process of suction through the venturi will keep a A/F mixture in the intake to let me live for another day.. Add to that I have a high wing, so if both of the fuel pumps fail, I still have 1.2 psi feeding the carb...

I have survived by using the K.I.S.S. concept... and I am too old to change my ways...:rolleyes::rolleyes:;)

0-80583-1.jpg
 
came in expecting pictures of boats. left disappointed.
 
Nice one.
Gotta get back to building my sup board, you kids with your motors, sheesh, keep em.
 
jesse said:
I used to hate carbs, but having had torn down and rebuilt at least a hundred of them in my life now, I like them a lot. They have soul :)

I have a lot of respect for the generation that figured out how to make the damn things.

Although..I really dislike motors with a carb for each cylinder. One big carb is a piece of cake compared to an inline-4 motorcycle with 4 carbs.
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It depends what type and level of performance you are looking for. I've never made a carbed engine with a lot of horsepower more streetable than with a cross rammed 4 pack set of DCOE Weber 2 barrels individually feeding cylinders, but for raw horse power, 2 Holley 4 barrel Dominators on a tall straight manifold with a big plenum always pulled the biggest numbers, but an "On/Off" throttle on 800HP is a ***** on the street and risks getting pulled over at every stop as you bark tires pulling out no matter what.:lol: Yeah a 4 pack of Webers is a ***** to get set up, but once you have them jetted, synchronized, and flow matched, there's not much you do to them.
 
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docmirror said:
Well, that sounds tough to tune. Not like a V12 Lamborghini with SIX dual side draft Webers.

Carb tuning was a good 5-7 hours and at least a 12 pack. ;)

Eventually I had every carb jet Weber made, including a jet bore kit.
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Miura?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I definitely agree that they have soul, and also that I have a great deal of respect for the people who figured out how to make them work.

That said, I still don't like the things. They have their purposes and work fine for things like lawn equipment or a setup when the builder wants something that's easy to assemble and doesn't mind tinkering. On any big engines that are simply supposed to work when you turn the key, there are a number of reasons why fuel injection is better. A setup like TBI has the advantage of being extremely simple and easy to diagnose when it does break while still providing the benefits.
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The advantage to carbs and a points ignition on a boat is that you can carry every spare part that can put you out of operation in a shoe box and spend less than $100, and replace any of them in 15-20 minutes. Not a big deal on a small, busy, lake; but out on water where assistance can be hours away, and will cost a minimum of $400 just for the tow in, it's more of a concern especially since you have one engine and no "come home kicker" 4-15hp outboard to hang on the swim step.

When I had my rescue/tow boat service in the Ca Delta I had 250gallons each of gas and Diesel, and could carry the spare parts to get nearly any recreational boat back up and running in 20 minutes in a 3x3x1.5' chest. I bought fuel for 75¢ a gallon for Diesel, and $1 a gallon for gas, and would sell either for $6 a gallon delivered. Repair was $100hr 2 hr minimum, and typically I was 20 minutes or less. I rarely towed people in. People would smile when they payed me and give me a beer because I salvaged their day, they didn't have to quit swimming or fishing.

Guys with EFI, they got towed in, I only carried the brains for EICMs for GM and Ford engines so if you had something different, you were getting towed as well.
 
All of the reasons against EFI given are the ones used on cars or planes. Everyone has to make their decisions, but the reality of what I've seen is similar to Jeff's - EFI just starts without hassles. The pumps are reliable and rarely fail, as are the computers (simple electronics).

When they do fail, it's not a 20-minute fix like Henning describes for carbs, but that's pretty rare.

If I built a flying deathtrap of my own, it'd have EFI.
 
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