Thinking About a Boat

[docmirror]

FI fuel pumps which see sporadic use do fail quite often. Boats, the very definition of sporadic use. Of course, if you only ever use non-Eth gas, the chance of a FI fuel pump go way, way down. Most all trailer boats use pump gas because it's cheaper than the marina.

The rest of the bits in an EFI are pretty robust, surely as robust as a carb, but lets face it, there are just more bits that need to work in EFI, so a failure in any part of it means stranded. Carbs will work with >2PSI of fuel pressure, and nothing else. For an offshore boat, I want a carb. Around local lakes, sure - go with EFI, risk of getting stranded is very low, and they are a little better in the dumb-down use category. Hard to flood, cold start enrichment, better atomization with modern injectors, etc.

 

[Henning]

All of the reasons against EFI given are the ones used on cars or planes. Everyone has to make their decisions, but the reality of what I've seen is similar to Jeff's - EFI just starts without hassles. The pumps are reliable and rarely fail, as are the computers (simple electronics).

When they do fail, it's not a 20-minute fix like Henning describes for carbs, but that's pretty rare.

If I built a flying deathtrap of my own, it'd have EFI.

True, personally I would have EFI and HEI as well. Cars the argument doesn't particularly hold as an engine ****ting itself is rarely life threatening, boats in confined, populated waters, same thing. Open water boating and flying are a different subject though, but in flying it doesn't matter because you can't fix it underway regardless the system, and no system is failure proof.

Boats are the only place where old tech be it carbs or mechanical injection, still have a place because they can be repaired underway much more easily and for less cost and volume in spare parts inventory onboard. The real ***** about the electronic engines I deal with is leasing the diagnostic software to have onboard, sometimes that alone costs $20k a year.

You have advantage in knowing the systems and being able to repair them, and with typical gas engine systems, you don't have the software lease issues to deal with for basic level stuff you can do with your basic spares inventory.

 

[Henning]

FI fuel pumps which see sporadic use do fail quite often. Boats, the very definition of sporadic use. Of course, if you only ever use non-Eth gas, the chance of a FI fuel pump go way, way down. Most all trailer boats use pump gas because it's cheaper than the marina.

The rest of the bits in an EFI are pretty robust, surely as robust as a carb, but lets face it, there are just more bits that need to work in EFI, so a failure in any part of it means stranded. Carbs will work with >2PSI of fuel pressure, and nothing else. For an offshore boat, I want a carb. Around local lakes, sure - go with EFI, risk of getting stranded is very low, and they are a little better in the dumb-down use category. Hard to flood, cold start enrichment, better atomization with modern injectors, etc.

Yep, a Holley carb has one moving part that needs to work, the throttle plate. You don't really need the accelerator pump or power valve in the metering block. If they fail, all it is is a minor performance loss.

 

[mtuomi]

The real ***** about the electronic engines I deal with is leasing the diagnostic software to have onboard, sometimes that alone costs $20k a year.

Hmm you sure about that? OEM level maybe, but the marine stuff I've dealt with have been bone stock Bosch/Delco/Siemens/Delphi stuff, all of which communicate quite nicely over ISO9141/ISO14230/KWP2000?

I've only worked with the "medium" size engines though, Volvo Penta D3->D6 etc.

 

[Henning]

Hmm you sure about that? OEM level maybe, but the marine stuff I've dealt with have been bone stock Bosch/Delco/Siemens/Delphi stuff, all of which communicate quite nicely over ISO9141/ISO14230/KWP2000?

I've only worked with the "medium" size engines though, Volvo Penta D3->D6 etc.

Yep, we always end up with OEM packages for typically Cat, MTU, and MAN common rail engines. Normally horsepower ranges between 2500 & 10,000, but the software lease price doesn't ever change. I really don't understand why 90% of yacht owners want it onboard, they never take their boats out of range of pro factory service local availability. The boats we actually set to sea on and have to support ourselves with limited infrastructure, (thank God for Fed Ex and DHL, not to mention VSAT) I have found it pretty useful in diagnostics and reducing costs and losses in both spares inventory (spares go to hell on a boat eventually no matter how well you stow them) and shipping costs and time by knowing exactly what parts I need so I don't have to wait another two weeks for the right part when the first was wrong, or order parts I don't need that cost to ship and and ship back, or die as spares. Then there is the factor of being able to get the entire thing reprogrammed if necessary via an emailed file.

 

[mtuomi]

Yep, we always end up with OEM packages for typically Cat, MTU, and MAN common rail engines. Normally horsepower ranges between 2500 & 10,000, but the software lease price doesn't ever change. I really don't understand why 90% of yacht owners want it onboard, they never take their boats out of range of pro factory service local availability. The boats we actually set to sea on and have to support ourselves with limited infrastructure, (thank God for Fed Ex and DHL, not to mention VSAT) I have found it pretty useful in diagnostics and reducing costs and losses in both spares inventory (spares go to hell on a boat eventually no matter how well you stow them) and shipping costs and time by knowing exactly what parts I need so I don't have to wait another two weeks for the right part when the first was wrong, or order parts I don't need that cost to ship and and ship back, or die as spares. Then there is the factor of being able to get the entire thing reprogrammed if necessary via an emailed file.

OK, it seems the "mid range" engines suffer from this. I've only worked with the small ones (Volvo Penta etc) and the real boat engines (Wärtsilä), W comes automatically with customer diagnostics capability. The smaller ones work with just about any generic tool.

 

[Henning]

OK, it seems the "mid range" engines suffer from this. I've only worked with the small ones (Volvo Penta etc) and the real boat engines (Wärtsilä), W comes automatically with customer diagnostics capability. The smaller ones work with just about any generic tool.

Yeah, the commercial boat industry is different, they throw all that stuff in to make the sale, the yacht world is stupid about actually boating, it's basically a contest to see who can spend the most money on their yacht to be seen somewhere along the Côte Azure. The Dotcom bubble started it, and the 08 crash made it worse. Now that the market rebounded the money being spent is stupider than ever. There are now 4 builds underway that will be over a billion dollars when complete, and everything on them will be triple keystone price. There is an entire shipping industry built around piggy backing large yachts to their destination cruising grounds.

Some of these guys are great fun (yacht time is like no other time they spend, that's why they spend so much on it), some of them are asses, I always look at the food in the crew mess before I accept a job, it tells me everything I need to know about the owner.

 

[jesse]

1977 75 HP Johnson 3 cylinder two stroke outboard

Ignition on middle, number 2 cylinder, is intermittent. Usually worse once the engine gets warm. I replaced the coil, plug, and plug wire, and it is still intermittent. I don't know enough about outboards to know what else to check or try. Thoughts?

I definitely absolutely know it's that cylinder not sparking. When it's acting up removing that spark plug boot results in no change in the way it's running and generates no spark when I ground it.

 

[Henning]

1977 75 HP Johnson 3 cylinder two stroke outboard

Ignition on middle, number 2 cylinder, is intermittent. Usually worse once the engine gets warm. I replaced the coil, plug, and plug wire, and it is still intermittent. I don't know enough about outboards to know what else to check or try. Thoughts?

I definitely absolutely know it's that cylinder not sparking. When it's acting up removing that spark plug boot results in no change in the way it's running and generates no spark when I ground it.

Look for grounding issues for the coil.

 

[jesse]

Look for grounding issues for the coil.

What's really weird is if I disconnect the no 1 cylinder plug with it idling high, put a screw driver in it, and ground it to the no 2 coil (shocking the no. 2 coil) the no 2 cylinder usually comes back online for another half hour or so.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

1977 75 HP Johnson 3 cylinder two stroke outboard

Ignition on middle, number 2 cylinder, is intermittent. Usually worse once the engine gets warm. I replaced the coil, plug, and plug wire, and it is still intermittent. I don't know enough about outboards to know what else to check or try. Thoughts?

I definitely absolutely know it's that cylinder not sparking. When it's acting up removing that spark plug boot results in no change in the way it's running and generates no spark when I ground it.

It's been a long time since I touched an outboard motor, but I think the spark is generated by a magnet in the flywheel moving past coils? Maybe the coil for that cylinder is bad. If my memory is right, there is a stator under the flywheel with the coils.

 

[Henning]

What's really weird is if I disconnect the no 1 cylinder plug with it idling high, put a screw driver in it, and ground it to the no 2 coil (shocking the no. 2 coil) the no 2 cylinder usually comes back online for another half hour or so.

Well, you may be establishing a path through the resistance when you do that. You may also want to try yet another new coil if you can't find an issue there. Unfortunately, the possibility of buying new, defective, parts is kinda high.

 

[jesse]

Well, you may be establishing a path through the resistance when you do that. You may also want to try yet another new coil if you can't find an issue there. Unfortunately, the possibility of buying new, defective, parts is kinda high.

What upstream of the coil sends it the pulse to fire? Any chance I have an issue there?

 

[Henning]

What upstream of the coil sends it the pulse to fire? Any chance I have an issue there?

Possibly, it's under the flywheel, there are magnets in it and a stator ring which trigger the ignition. Typically though, when that stuff fails, it stays failed, worth a look though.

 

[jesse]

Possibly, it's under the flywheel, there are magnets in it and a stator ring which trigger the ignition. Typically though, when that stuff fails, it stays failed, worth a look though.

What do I need to know about removing and reinstalling the flywheel? I imagine orientation influences timing?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

What upstream of the coil sends it the pulse to fire? Any chance I have an issue there?

Are you sure that cylinder is getting fuel?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

What do I need to know about removing and reinstalling the flywheel? I imagine orientation influences timing?

He service manual for your motor should describe the position of the magnets and how to set that up.

 

[Henning]

What do I need to know about removing and reinstalling the flywheel? I imagine orientation influences timing?

Well, you can mark the flywheel, but IIRC, it's indexed on with a key way, and since it's a 2 stroke there are no other timing sues to be concerned with. You will need a puller, and sometimes you have to 'ring' the side of the flywheel with a bronze mallet to get it to pop off.

 

[N801BH]

Well, you can mark the flywheel, but IIRC, it's indexed on with a key way, and since it's a 2 stroke there are no other timing sues to be concerned with.

IIRC.... It is a keyed crankshaft...

 

[Skip Miller]

What do I need to know about removing and reinstalling the flywheel? I imagine orientation influences timing?

Long before the electronics stuff there was a set of points under the flywheel. And the flywheel is keyed to the crankshaft.

Attached is a look under an ancient flywheel. Definitely not what you will see under yours....

-Skip

 

[Henning]

IIRC.... It is a keyed crankshaft...

Yeah, I can't recall one that wasn't, but I haven't worked on one of those in decades.

 

[jesse]

Are you sure that cylinder is getting fuel?

Absolutely positive, this spring I replaced the coil, rebuilt all three carbs, replaced the fuel fittings and all the fuel lines, etc. Worked fine for the first outing than the problem came back.

When that cylinder is offline there is no spark confirmed by grounding the plug wire. The other two cylinders always manage to shock me no problem when I'm trying to ground them.

 

[Henning]

I'm not sure if that is the link you meant to give. That's an ancient 2cyl Sea Horse with points. I'm pretty sure his has a CDI ignition.

 

[Skip Miller]

I'm not sure if that is the link you meant to give. That's an ancient 2cyl Sea Horse with points. I'm pretty sure his has a CDI ignition.

I am sure you are right. Posted for historical reference only. My post edited to avoid (hopefully) more confusion.

 

[jesse]

I was on the boat when I wrote this, then I had a hell of a time getting back to the dock since in the ignition system was really starting to act up.

Finally got back to the dock, walked up to the trailer, and saw this:

I was pretty well convinced neither the boat nor the trailer were leaving the lake today. Ted and Henning gave me some inspiration on Facebook. I loaded up a bunch of tools, ran to Autozone to discover they only had ONE bearing size in stock, and I had no idea what sized I needed... Luckily it was the right size.

The spindle was pretty well shot and was most certainly not round anymore. I couldn't even close to getting the new bearings on. It took me a hour or two with my steel chisel and 5 lb sledge hammer to beat it to roughly a round-ish shape. Enough to where I could get the bearings on. Got it all put back together, drove it the 10 or 15 miles home, checked the temperature of the hub and it all seems fine. I'll replace the axle in the spring.

Wish I had a DVA adapter for the multimeter to better troubleshoot the CDI system, but I don't, so I'll just swap the no 1 and no 2 coils and see if the problem moves. Hopefully it does.

If it doesn't then it's time to do some troubleshooting of the powerpack and sensors.

I don't think it's the stator since it has no issues charging the battery and the problem is isolated to one cylinder. Could be the powerpack, coil, or sensor that signals the power pack, I figure...

 

[gkainz]

following this thread has pretty much convinced me that those times I get a wild crazy inkling of that urge to "buy a boat" I would be better off to sit down and drink a beer until the urge passes ...

 

[Ted]

following this thread has pretty much convinced me that those times I get a wild crazy inkling of that urge to "buy a boat" I would be better off to sit down and drink a beer until the urge passes ...

It depends on your location and use. My family and I are very glad to have ours. For the $6k it's cost us so far all-in, that's pretty good for a recreational item we've used heavily for two seasons and the expectation of more. Jesse likes our boat so much he plans on buying it when we get that 50' express cruiser that requires a Kenworth to tow it.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Agreed. $7K original purchase price of our 1976 runabout back in the early 90's. Other than replacing the transom and doing an engine overhaul to freshen up the 351W, we haven't put much money into it, but have logged hundreds of hours on the water mostly trouble-free. Definitely cheap fun, and we couldn't buy anything comparable to our boat new for less than $35K or so. It doesn't have to be expensive if you're willing to work on them/maintain them yourself.

 

[Ted]

I'm expecting to need to touch the outdrive at some point, but the engine is strong. I'll throw EFI on it eventually. After I do those two items will probably be when Jesse buys it from me so we can upgrade to a bigger boat more suitable for overnights.

 

[N801BH]

.... walked up to the trailer, and saw this:

I was pretty well convinced neither the boat nor the trailer were leaving the lake today. ........

Geez.....
I hope you preflight a plane better then that trailer....

That poor bearing has NOT seen grease in years.....

Ps.. When you see oil /grease stains on a white spoke trailer wheel, there is a 100% chance the bearing /seal has failed...

 

[jesse]

Geez.....
I hope you preflight a plane better then that trailer....

That poor bearing has NOT seen grease in years.....

Ps.. When you see oil /grease stains on a white spoke trailer wheel, there is a 100% chance the bearing /seal has failed...

I had a really great smartass response that quite frankly wasn't very nice.

Than I got to thinking about it, and our boat thread is not a place for people to be dicks, the boat thread, is the happy thread, lets keep it that way!

 

[jesse]

following this thread has pretty much convinced me that those times I get a wild crazy inkling of that urge to "buy a boat" I would be better off to sit down and drink a beer until the urge passes ...

All in all , I've probably done less than 20 hours of maintenance on this boat in the three years I've had it. I've had an enormous amount of fun with it.

It appears 1 hour of additional labor should have been performed on my trailer earlier this year. I'll probably have $150 to $200 and 4 hours of my time sunk into fixing this problem the right way. Ordering a new axle, hubs, and bearings.

My total investment in this boat, including all the maintenance, is less than $1,500. That money has made countless memories and has produced many weekends full of great fun.

When it comes to overall fun, it's a hell of a lot better value than our flying machines.

 

[Theboys]

I kind of think the wheel blends into the rest of the camouflaged layout of the boat myself.

 

[Theboys]

By the looks of the bearing I'm thinking it's been bad for years. Didn't this have the bearing buddy's on it?

 

[jesse]

I kind of think the wheel blends into the rest of the camouflaged layout of the boat myself.

LMFAO

 

[jesse]

By the looks of the bearing I'm thinking it's been bad for years. Didn't this have the bearing buddy's on it?

Nah, my boat before this one did.

It's probably needed attention for a long time, but earlier this year when I jacked it up, there was no noticeable play in it.

I think the bearings are undersized for the amount of weight the boat actually is which could be a major factor in what happened. I'm stepping it all up on the newer stuff

 

[jesse]

I kind of think the wheel blends into the rest of the camouflaged layout of the boat myself.

I think we just need to trade the Sierra for a fancy boat with the horsepower for water sports. Keep it at the lake in the summer. I'll split the dock fees.

 

[jesse]

Karma was probably a contributing factor. On the way to the lake there was a guy with what appeared to be like a $50,000 giant boat on the side of the road with a bearing failure. Linda asked what was wrong with his trailer, and I said it appears he spent too much money on his boat and not enough on his trailer.

Of course, I spend not enough money on either. It's a miracle I've made it this long without a catastrophic towing failure, especially since I'm towing it with a Ford.

Trailer karma gods struck me down for that.

 

[dell30rb]

following this thread has pretty much convinced me that those times I get a wild crazy inkling of that urge to "buy a boat" I would be better off to sit down and drink a beer until the urge passes ...

While you are drinking that beer, think about how good it would be to drink that beer on your boat. Here's where I am at with mine. I think I got it around this time last year. This is a cross post from another forum. The thread is below, "show off your cheap boat" basically a collection of boats under 10k. For someone interested in buying a first boat, a good place to see what's out there.
http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-outdoor-photos/234046-show-off-your-cheap-boat.html

Albemarle 24. I bought the boat/trailer for 5k and Estimate right at 10k investment with new electronics included. Paid for about 10 hours of shop labor in that figure, did the rest myself. 5.7 vortec with volvo DP drive. If anyone cares I have been keeping a log. It had a low hour Indmar vortec block but the engine accessories were swapped over from an older long block and they all needed to be replaced. Rusty!

I have been fishing the boat since May and slowly improving on the cosmetics since then.

9/21/14
Trailer rebuilt
Painted with Zinc Paint
New tires, hubs, bearings, seals, brakes, brake actuator, brake lines, lights, wiring, bearing buddys, leaf springs, various hardware, some rollers replaced.

3/31/15
86 Engine Hours
Engine and Drive serviced by Britt Buck with Ed’s Marine in Grimesland, NC
Engine: Oil Change, New Pulleys, New Belt, Brackets wire wheeled and painted, alternator rebuilt, starter rebuilt, spark plugs, manifolds and risers replaced, hoses and hardware for manifolds replaced, new thermostat. New circulating water pump and new impeller for raw water pump.
Outdrive resealed, oil changed, propellers re-hubbed, trued and painted. Trim cylinders rebuilt with new seals. Trim fluid flushed.

New Raymarine a68 gps and fishfinder installed with CPT-100 CHIRP trandsucer.
New DSC VHF radio and 8’ Shakespeare antenna installed.
Engine and trailer coated with Fluid Film rust protectant.
New starting and deep cycle batteries
Replaced washdown pump.
Hull waxed
Replaced bilge ventilation hoses and blower

4/30/15
94 engine hours
Carb removed and cleaned. New gaskets.
Fixed and adjusted carb electric choke
Replaced U-joints and bellows with greasable moog joints and Volvo bellows kit

8/7/15
150 engine hours
Rubbing compound and Waxed hull and topsides
Cleaned Teak, Refinished
Changed Engine Oil
All metal wiped down 2x with corrosion-x (rod holders, SS hardware, bow rail etc)

 

[Henning]

For salt water boats and fishing/diving gear, Salt-X is a wonderful substance, a little bit goes a long way too.