Thinking About a Boat

[Ted]

Also, we decided to redo the interior cushions. This isn't hard to do and the end result has been rather forgiving of errors once in the boat. This is the bow cushion. Makes the cuddy cabin look newer/in better shape.

This boat is really fitting our needs well for now and we're all enjoying it. I can see wanting to change in a 3-5 years depending on if we decide we want to do overnights on the boat. I find the idea appealing, but definitely not for a few years yet.

 

[SCCutler]

another alternative, put in fuel injection off a similar-year chevy pickup, and also use the truck's ecm-controlled distributor. It really makes for easy starting and nice clean idling.

That right there is good advice.

For the guy who swapped the tranny on a Jag, it should be cake.

 

[Ted]

That right there is good advice.

For the guy who swapped the tranny on a Jag, it should be cake.

Don't forget the V12s I've swapped and the other related fuel injection/ignition hacks I've done.

Issue now is taking the boat down to do the swap. We're in prime boating season and have a lot on our plate. So I guess the real question is do I do a few quick/easy things now, or wait to do a more involved conversion over the winter.

 

[docmirror]

Please be aware that many aftermarket products are not approved for marine use. I'm not saying they won't work, or that they are dangerous but they aren't designed for marine applications.

This is particularly critical in these areas of fuel and ignition systems. I think MSD does have a line of marine products, but I'm not sure. As for swapping in a FI unit from a truck, I would be very cautious of that. Higher pressure leaves lots of room for leaks to develop, and vibration has a way of finding those leaks.

 

[Henning]

Don't forget the V12s I've swapped and the other related fuel injection/ignition hacks I've done.

Issue now is taking the boat down to do the swap. We're in prime boating season and have a lot on our plate. So I guess the real question is do I do a few quick/easy things now, or wait to do a more involved conversion over the winter.

As cheap as SB Chevys are, your best bet is to just build out another to spec and swap, or wait until end of season. If you are having trouble with starting on a Q-Jet, it's likely the vacuum choke pull off pot getting weak. Get a TBI engine out of a 3/4 or 1 ton pickup.

 

[Ted]

Scope creep: ignition issue turning to engine swap.

Or I could sell the boat and buy one with twin fuel injected 454s. Yeah, I think that sounds good. Maybe twin Detroit Diesels.

 

[Henning]

Scope creep: ignition issue turning to engine swap.

Or I could sell the boat and buy one with twin fuel injected 454s. Yeah, I think that sounds good. Maybe twin Detroit Diesels.

Well, it went from ignition issue to FI, at that point the swap's less work and about the same money.

 

[Ted]

Well, it went from ignition issue to FI, at that point the swap's less work and about the same money.

If I'm doing an engine swap, I'll just buy a bigger boat. 40' express cruiser ought to do it, but a 34' might still be trailerable. Need a bigger trailer, though.

 

[Henning]

If I'm doing an engine swap, I'll just buy a bigger boat. 40' express cruiser ought to do it, but a 34' might still be trailerable. Need a bigger trailer, though.

I can build you a nice 36' express cruiser on a modified Sharpie hull that would be fully trailerable, more efficient, and capable of getting you home safe on the Great Lakes on an ugly day. Can be done for less than you can buy a decent one for that will be marginal to trailer, use 5 times the fuel, and not be anywhere near as seaworthy.

 

[Ted]

I can build you a nice 36' express cruiser on a modified Sharpie hull that would be fully trailerable, more efficient, and capable of getting you home safe on the Great Lakes on an ugly day. Can be done for less than you can buy a decent one for that will be marginal to trailer, use 5 times the fuel, and not be anywhere near as seaworthy.

So what would an estimated cost for that be?

Edit: I'm loving where this is going

 

[Henning]

So what would an estimated cost for that be?

Edit: I'm loving where this is going

$35k on up depending on what amenities and materials you desire. You will provide a lot of labor at that price, and will use salvage running train. It's fun though.

 

[docmirror]

If I'm doing an engine swap, I'll just buy a bigger boat. 40' express cruiser ought to do it, but a 34' might still be trailerable. Need a bigger trailer, though.

I think I warned you about this way back.

We were cramped a bit with teens on the 22' Seaswirl, but the 28' Excel is just right. I don't want to go out of the trailerboat range. It's so hard to trailer a 34' boat with a 10' beam. I did it for one season and we had so much hassle getting to and from the lake, we downsized and are fine with what we have now.

 

[SCCutler]

Don't forget the V12s I've swapped and the other related fuel injection/ignition hacks I've done.

I never doubted you Ted!

Scope creep: ignition issue turning to engine swap.

Or I could sell the boat and buy one with twin fuel injected 454s. Yeah, I think that sounds good. Maybe twin Detroit Diesels.

Anyone of those engines that so big, that you have to build the boat around it-that you know, like the big cargo ships have. Don't forget, you also need bow thrusters as well.

I can build you a nice 36' express cruiser on a modified Sharpie hull that would be fully trailerable, more efficient, and capable of getting you home safe on the Great Lakes on an ugly day. Can be done for less than you can buy a decent one for that will be marginal to trailer, use 5 times the fuel, and not be anywhere near as seaworthy.

Heinemann Iron Works, to the rescue!

So what would an estimated cost for that be?

Edit: I'm loving where this is going

For perfection, cost cannot possibly be an issue...

$35k on up depending on what amenities and materials you desire. You will provide a lot of labor at that price, and will use salvage running train. It's fun though.

Write the PO, already!

So, Henning, what running your will you use?

 

[Ted]

I think I warned you about this way back.

Keep in mind that we really like our boat now, it meets our goals and needs. I see it being years before we'd actually consider an upgrade.

 

[Henning]

Heinemann Iron Works, to the rescue!



For perfection, cost cannot possibly be an issue...



Write the PO, already!

So, Henning, what running your will you use?

Foam Works... It would be foam core above the water line, likely C-Flex or similar below. Running gear depends on how fast he wants to go. Most likely a BT-6, a Twin Disc box, and straight shaft with prop, although a jet pump or Arneson drive have their own appeals, safety for one, efficiency for the other, but they come at a significant premium. If I was building it for me with towing power to do some salvage, I'd probably use a 475hp Cat 3208 TA, cheap and efficient.

 

[Henning]

Keep in mind that we really like our boat now, it meets our goals and needs. I see it being years before we'd actually consider an upgrade.

It takes 3-5 years to build a boat typically....

 

[Ted]

It takes 3-5 years to build a boat typically....

Yeah, we also have a few other things going on right now. Something about 3 kids under 3.

 

[docmirror]

If you start building a boat today, your kids will be changing your diapers before it floats.

 

[Henning]

If you start building a boat today, your kids will be changing your diapers before it floats.

Depends, it certainly can take that long, much like with Ex A/B airplanes. However again similar, for the person that dedicates 10-12 hrs a week on it, it can also be in sea trials in 3-5 years. A Sharpie is a very simple and straight forward hard chine design that lends itself to slab material construction very well. The hull can easily be done in a month by a couple of people, and the deck and house added over the course of a summer. Lofting the below the waterline plug to lay the C-Flex on is the only really tricky bit to build. The time consuming part is always the fairing, but it's simple enough. Everything else above the waterline is just a process of cutting out foam and glassing over it, and with the low cost of the suppliers providing CNC cut parts at very attractive prices, everything, including the plug, builds just like a giant 3D jigsaw puzzle. Could build out of aluminum equally well depending on which material is at the premium and which one a person is more comfortable dealing with.

Ruell Parker has a nice little 36 Commuter, I think he is set to do glass over ply.

http://www.parker-marine.com/commuterpage.htm

I would do the bow differently for sea kindliness into the wind.

 

[Henning]

There is also the sailboat conversion route...

 

[Ted]

The way my impulsive vehicle nature goes, building becomes challenging. By the time I'm done I want something else.

I think I'd be more likely to build a plane first, especially since I want an experimental that doesn't exist.

 

[Henning]

The way my impulsive vehicle nature goes, building becomes challenging. By the time I'm done I want something else.

I think I'd be more likely to build a plane first, especially since I want an experimental that doesn't exist.

Yep, personally I want a boat that doesn't exist, luckily 'close enough' exists that I can modify one and save a couple million dollars. That's really the ***** about the E/AB rules, although they will allow you to use components.

 

[Ted]

Yep, personally I want a boat that doesn't exist, luckily 'close enough' exists that I can modify one and save a couple million dollars. That's really the ***** about the E/AB rules, although they will allow you to use components.

We really like our SeaRay, and when I window shop I find SeaRays continue to catch my eye. Wouldn't surprise me if we get another one when we decide to replace this one.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I've found that in the aftermarket ignition world you have MSD, and crap. That's about it.

I'm debating whether to do a full tune-up now. Probably will.

I've had good luck with the Pertronix kits, but I usually go with the new Dizzy and coil to match. Never had an issue so far.

 

[Henning]

We really like our SeaRay, and when I window shop I find SeaRays continue to catch my eye. Wouldn't surprise me if we get another one when we decide to replace this one.

They are a decent make boat for what they are. They probably now have the best production hull build technology going. They just chew through too much fuel for me, and don't do what I need a boat to do particularly well, but our uses are completely different. To me a boat is a home that makes me a living.

 

[SoonerAviator]

another alternative, put in fuel injection off a similar-year chevy pickup, and also use the truck's ecm-controlled distributor. It really makes for easy starting and nice clean idling.

Why complicate things? With FI you have to swap out to a high-pressure fuel pump and plumb return lines to the fuel tank, sensors, etc. A properly tuned carb starts easily and should be trouble-free for years if properly maintained. I run an Edelbrock 1409 on my 351w.

 

[Ted]

They are a decent make boat for what they are. They probably now have the best production hull build technology going. They just chew through too much fuel for me, and don't do what I need a boat to do particularly well, but our uses are completely different. To me a boat is a home that makes me a living.

Agreed, our uses are very different. Efficiency is near the very bottom of the list for me. Comfort is one of the top priorities for me.

 

[Henning]

Agreed, our uses are very different. Efficiency is near the very bottom of the list for me. Comfort is one of the top priorities for me.

Small lakes not much really matters, when you get into bigger water though, efficiency, safety, and sea kindliness come as a package deal. If you are looking for the best of one, you will get the others.

 

[Ted]

Small lakes not much really matters, when you get into bigger water though, efficiency, safety, and sea kindliness come as a package deal. If you are looking for the best of one, you will get the others.

Yep. For now where we just are boring holes in the water, this works well. A 350/Alpha One is no technological marvel, but it's simple. Assuming we do eventually try traveling on a boat for a year or two, then we'll be looking at the other aspects more heavily (especially efficiency) and I'd expect to see inboard diesels. If we decide we basically want to do lake overnights, another SeaRay might do the job.

 

[Henning]

Yep. For now where we just are boring holes in the water, this works well. A 350/Alpha One is no technological marvel, but it's simple. Assuming we do eventually try traveling on a boat for a year or two, then we'll be looking at the other aspects more heavily (especially efficiency) and I'd expect to see inboard diesels. If we decide we basically want to do lake overnights, another SeaRay might do the job.

Yep, heck, even Bayliner has some decent cabin boats for cruising inland and protected waters. The problem with the typical planing hull (actually most semi and full displacement designs as well) boat though is the 3:1 length to beam ratio they all use. As you can see, that limits trailerability greatly, and by the time you have a 38' boat, you need all the permits and escorts and everything. To me a perfect sized personal boat would be 50' x 8'6 x 9'6 keel to highest fixed. That allows me to put it on a 53' Flat Pack which puts it on any truck, train, or container ship cheap as chips and get it to any point on the globe for less than $5k, and allows launch and recovery with a standard container crane in any port.

It also allows it to get into all the canals in Europe.

 

[kayoh190]

Speaking of Sea Ray, what do you guys think of the Sundancer 330? I'm thinking of a boat that could do Catalina and sleep two couples for a couple of days. Maybe up and down the coast from time to time. But mostly it'd be local cruising. Would the 330 be enough boat for this?

http://www.boatingmag.com/boats/sea-ray-330-sundancer

 

[Henning]

Speaking of Sea Ray, what do you guys think of the Sundancer 330? I'm thinking of a boat that could do Catalina and sleep two couples for a couple of days. Maybe up and down the coast from time to time. But mostly it'd be local cruising. Would the 330 be enough boat for this?

http://www.boatingmag.com/boats/sea-ray-330-sundancer

Possibly, if you are a typical SoCal boater, it will be fine. The typical SoCal boater takes their boat out once a year on 4th of July to see the fireworks, and maybe a couple times to Catalina. If you want to use the boat more though, those 510 Chevys get really thirsty. You burn Navajo fuel to do half the speed of a Champ. Cruising a 700+hp planing hull boat with gasoline engines is painful to the wallet at the best. If you want to sell it in a few years, you will find a dead SoCal market, similar to the one that allows you to buy one cheap now.

 

[kayoh190]

So for my mission, given that I'd like a cabin with two independent sleeping areas - what would you suggest? Or should I just go back to looking at sailboats (which is still on the table, btw!)?

 

[JHW]

Why complicate things? With FI you have to swap out to a high-pressure fuel pump and plumb return lines to the fuel tank, sensors, etc. A properly tuned carb starts easily and should be trouble-free for years if properly maintained. I run an Edelbrock 1409 on my 351w.

because it's easy to do and once done, it always works. Starting becomes just like a new car, turn the key and it starts and idles perfectly, hot or cold. Holeshot for pulling skiiers out of the water is improved. Saying a "properly tuned carb" runs as well is like saying that my antique oliver tractor will pull just as much as a new 50hp tractor, on a day that both happen to be running.

Our boat is recreation, I don't want to be tinkering and tuning. I want to turn the key and go. And that goes double when my wife or daughters are in the driver's seat. The whole family gets more enjoyment out of being on the water when there is no stress about whether or not they can get the boat started. That also means I get to ski more because they are more willing to drive.

Concerns about fuel injection being "complicated" are laughable. There are upteen companies that provide the wiring harness and ecm chip to take parts off a truck and install them onto your boat plug&play. As for your fuel pump concern, it's $30 from o'reilleys and you can re-use the merc fuel filter base. Return line easily tee's into the fuel fill hose which is readily accessible on every boat I've ever seen.

The other criticism I hear is that we'll lose top end speed going from the big 4-bbl carter to the smaller 2-bbl tbi. That's true, our boat lost about 6mph and now it barely gets into the 50's mph. It's not a race boat, it's family fun. 99% of the time it has the bimini top up which limits speed to ~35 anyway.

Here's what it looks like. Stone simple, really. Spend one weekend getting rid of the carb and never think about any of this stuff again.

 

[N801BH]

because it's easy to do and once done, it always works. Starting becomes just like a new car, turn the key and it starts and idles perfectly, hot or cold. Holeshot for pulling skiiers out of the water is improved. Saying a "properly tuned carb" runs as well is like saying that my antique oliver tractor will pull just as much as a new 50hp tractor, on a day that both happen to be running.

Our boat is recreation, I don't want to be tinkering and tuning. I want to turn the key and go. And that goes double when my wife or daughters are in the driver's seat. The whole family gets more enjoyment out of being on the water when there is no stress about whether or not they can get the boat started. That also means I get to ski more because they are more willing to drive.

Concerns about fuel injection being "complicated" are laughable. There are upteen companies that provide the wiring harness and ecm chip to take parts off a truck and install them onto your boat plug&play. As for your fuel pump concern, it's $30 from o'reilleys and you can re-use the merc fuel filter base. Return line easily tee's into the fuel fill hose which is readily accessible on every boat I've ever seen.

The other criticism I hear is that we'll lose top end speed going from the big 4-bbl carter to the smaller 2-bbl tbi. That's true, our boat lost about 6mph and now it barely gets into the 50's mph. It's not a race boat, it's family fun. 99% of the time it has the bimini top up which limits speed to ~35 anyway.

Here's what it looks like. Stone simple, really. Spend one weekend getting rid of the carb and never think about any of this stuff again.

Great post......

 

[docmirror]

because it's easy to do and once done, it always works. Starting becomes just like a new car, turn the key and it starts and idles perfectly, hot or cold.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. There are more moving parts with EFI and there are many ways it can go wrong. While EFI conversion systems aren't the black art they once were, you're going to find that the ECM is setup for an auto trans, and there will be some tuning to do on a boat. The torque curve is different, and the engine will need to be a bit richer at cruising throttle than with a car tune. You might have some detonation, or you might run hotter than normal until you change the fuel map. It depends on what you get.

Another issue I've run into is problems with the idle stabilizer setting. On a boat, it's similar to an auto trans but with the change in load, the ISV might hunt depending on the location of the throttle plate, and fuel pressure sensitivity.

More importantly, I"m pretty sure that pic with the TBI on top of the throttle plate is not marine approved, and pretty sure it never will be. If you've ever seen a boat fire, you'll be careful with this stuff.

 

[N801BH]

I'm afraid I have to disagree. There are more moving parts with EFI and there are many ways it can go wrong. While EFI conversion systems aren't the black art they once were, you're going to find that the ECM is setup for an auto trans, and there will be some tuning to do on a boat. The torque curve is different, and the engine will need to be a bit richer at cruising throttle than with a car tune. You might have some detonation, or you might run hotter than normal until you change the fuel map. It depends on what you get.

Another issue I've run into is problems with the idle stabilizer setting. On a boat, it's similar to an auto trans but with the change in load, the ISV might hunt depending on the location of the throttle plate, and fuel pressure sensitivity.

More importantly, I"m pretty sure that pic with the TBI on top of the throttle plate is not marine approved, and pretty sure it never will be. If you've ever seen a boat fire, you'll be careful with this stuff.

Hmmm...

Holley used to offer a retro-fit EFI TBI.. Simple to bolt on ,easy to program data points, relatively inexpensive.... IMHO..

 

[JHW]

I'm afraid I have to disagree. There are more moving parts with EFI and there are many ways it can go wrong. While EFI conversion systems aren't the black art they once were, you're going to find that the ECM is setup for an auto trans, and there will be some tuning to do on a boat. The torque curve is different, and the engine will need to be a bit richer at cruising throttle than with a car tune. You might have some detonation, or you might run hotter than normal until you change the fuel map. It depends on what you get.

again, no it isn't any effort. You just buy a boat chip that already has all that work done for you. They even offer a switch input to pick up the auto trans fast-idle for trolling (i didn't hook it up but it's there).

as for marine certifications, I know a bit about them as it used to be my day job. While the parts from the truck don't have any paperwork, i know it's inherently safer because I never have a pool of fuel in the intake manifold, unlike with the hard-starting carb. Getting rid of the fire hazard is another reason to get rid of the carb.

 

[JHW]

Hmmm...

Holley used to offer a retro-fit EFI TBI.. Simple to bolt on ,easy to program data points, relatively inexpensive.... IMHO..

they do, but the chip and harness from someone like AFI is so much easier. Tell them I have this weight boat with this prop and tick a few boxes, such as open loop vs closed, and they send you a chip with the right curves, and a wiring harness for only the sensors you need.

I was a coward and didn't want to try and drill the water cooled manifolds for O2 sensors, so i opted for open loop.

The holley system requires some tuning and I think it's overly sensitive to the TPS. And the holley parts seem to be a little more temperature sensitive. There's a lot to be said for taking the parts off a truck that was made by the millions.

 

[N801BH]

they do, but the chip and harness from someone like AFI is so much easier. Tell them I have this weight boat with this prop and tick a few boxes, such as open loop vs closed, and they send you a chip with the right curves, and a wiring harness for only the sensors you need.

I was a coward and didn't want to try and drill the water cooled manifolds for O2 sensors, so i opted for open loop.

The holley system requires some tuning and I think it's overly sensitive to the TPS. And the holley parts seem to be a little more temperature sensitive. There's a lot to be said for taking the parts off a truck that was made by the millions.

Agreed....

I had not priced one in years.. They used to be cost effective...

They ain't now.......

http://www.holleyinjection.com/avenger-4bbl-550-400

Ps... I will stick to my 500 CFM 2bbl Holley in my plane.... it works PERFECTLY...