The E in PAVE we don’t talk about

[Salty]

My sister in law came into town this weekend, and we planned on taking her for a flight. However, she was quite a bit more woman than the last time we met several years ago. I did the weight and balance with a wild guess and it came out ok, but man that would have tested my ADM skills had the math not worked.

 

[tspear]

My sister in law came into town this weekend, and we planned on taking her for a flight. However, she was quite a bit more woman than the last time we met several years ago. I did the weight and balance with a wild guess and it came out ok, but man that would have tested my ADM skills had the math not worked.

I stopped guessing years ago.
I am now old enough that I can just be blunt.

Tim (as if age ever stopped me before)

 

[iamtheari]

And yet you get accused of all sorts of personality defects if you show up with your small airplane in a flooded community to help evacuate people and, for their own safety, you take reasonable measures to ensure you don't have weight and balance problems. Reasonable measures like telling Princess Vespa to "take only what you need to survive" or putting a "NO FAT CHICKS" sign in the window. Even if it says "for weight and balance purposes" on the sign. The E in PAVE stands for external pressures, and political correctness is an external pressure that you have to ignore when flight safety is on the line.

 

[dbahn]

That "E" in PAVE was originally an "M" for Mission, but that's also before they changed "Environment" to "V". I guess that "P.A.E.M." just wasn't catchy enough.

So when an overweight person wants to be a passenger that might cause me to be over max gross weight then I blame the "A". Aircraft - "can this aircraft carry the planned load?"

But it can be awkward. We do this for every glider ride at Sugarbush, and I'm guessing that 90% of the people on the "high end" understate their actual weight.

 

[Half Fast]

Hmmmmm...... Maybe you could try telling her, "Well, I'm afraid I've put on a little extra weight and the plane can't carry both of us, so I guess I can't go. Here are the keys. She's all fueled up, so have fun!"

After all, unless she's turned into Shamu, it's your combined weight that's the problem, so you can be chivalrous and take the blame.

 

[Half Fast]

My sister in law came into town this weekend, and we planned on taking her for a flight. However, she was quite a bit more woman than the last time we met several years ago. I did the weight and balance with a wild guess and it came out ok, but man that would have tested my ADM skills had the math not worked.

I presume you took the Mooney and not the Cessna.....

 

[steingar]

I fell victim to this quite a few years ago. Had the temperature been 10 degrees warmer it would have ended differently.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I find it amusing the angst about being over weight. Yet it seems getting a temporary exemption to carry ferry tanks for long over water flights seems to be automatic.
Also there is STCs for bigger engines that increase max weight as well.
Some airplanes I think issues are more about balance than weight.
When I did my training, in a 152, I did the W&B and found out with the CFI needed to lose about 30lbs for us to be “legal”.


Tom

 

[Kenny Phillips]

I find it amusing the angst about being over weight. Yet it seems getting a temporary exemption to carry ferry tanks for long over water flights seems to be automatic.
Also there is STCs for bigger engines that increase max weight as well.
Some airplanes I think issues are more about balance than weight.
When I did my training, in a 152, I did the W&B and found out with the CFI needed to lose about 30lbs for us to be “legal”.


Tom

All of the takeoff, landing, stall, and climb numbers go out the window when overweight. Heck, I've been in a 150 on takeoff, under gross but on a 100 °F day, when we had to turn to avoid a 300 foot hill a mile past the runway.
I'm sure I could have flown my Skyhawk 500 lbs. over, but at that point, I'm a test pilot. I prefer not to be.

 

[Half Fast]

I find it amusing the angst about being over weight. Yet it seems getting a temporary exemption to carry ferry tanks for long over water flights seems to be automatic.
Also there is STCs for bigger engines that increase max weight as well.
Some airplanes I think issues are more about balance than weight.
When I did my training, in a 152, I did the W&B and found out with the CFI needed to lose about 30lbs for us to be “legal”.


Tom

But the POH performance numbers won't apply. I wouldn't be worried that the airframe will crumble with another 30lbs on board, but the stall speed will be higher than spec, the takeoff distance longer, Va will be higher, etc.

 

[midwestpa24]

A little over, probably won't cause a problem as long as you account for the decreased performance and aren't needing every foot of runway or climb performance. A lot over, could hurt badly.

 

[schmookeeg]

And yet you get accused of all sorts of personality defects if you show up with your small airplane in a flooded community to help evacuate people and, for their own safety, you take reasonable measures to ensure you don't have weight and balance problems. Reasonable measures like telling Princess Vespa to "take only what you need to survive" or putting a "NO FAT CHICKS" sign in the window. Even if it says "for weight and balance purposes" on the sign. The E in PAVE stands for external pressures, and political correctness is an external pressure that you have to ignore when flight safety is on the line.

What credible insult could a member of Dollar General Nation possibly fling at a pilot trying to evacuate their trailer park?

 

[Half Fast]

What credible insult could a member of Dollar General Nation possibly fling at a pilot trying to evacuate their trailer park?

I don't know. How many CFIs are sharing a trailer?

 

[dbahn]

I find it amusing the angst about being over weight. Yet it seems getting a temporary exemption to carry ferry tanks for long over water flights seems to be automatic.
Also there is STCs for bigger engines that increase max weight as well.
Some airplanes I think issues are more about balance than weight.
When I did my training, in a 152, I did the W&B and found out with the CFI needed to lose about 30lbs for us to be “legal”.


Tom

Maximum gross weight is a precise number with a soft margin. In most every airplane the difference between being 10 pounds over vs. 10 pounds under is just how the FSDO, the NTSB, the insurance company, and forum members will all react to your accident.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

All of the takeoff, landing, stall, and climb numbers go out the window when overweight. Heck, I've been in a 150 on takeoff, under gross but on a 100 °F day, when we had to turn to avoid a 300 foot hill a mile past the runway.
I'm sure I could have flown my Skyhawk 500 lbs. over, but at that point, I'm a test pilot. I prefer not to be.

100% this for the 150. Temp seems to make so much difference. I took off at gross with my larger brother in winter (38 degrees) and it leaped off the runway like the floor was lava. Frost on the wings (yeah, let’s not get into that now) but 20 degrees does not concern me the way 100 degree days do. I will never load it to max gross on a hot summer day unless I am at a nice 5000 runway, twice the length of my home runway.

 

[dbahn]

100% this for the 150. Temp seems to make so much difference. I took off at gross with my larger brother in winter (38 degrees) and it leaped off the runway like the floor was lava. Frost on the wings (yeah, let’s not get into that now) but 20 degrees does not concern me the way 100 degree days do. I will never load it to max gross on a hot summer day unless I am at a nice 5000 runway, twice the length of my home runway.

That's why density altitude is so important. It doesn't matter whether it's due to temperature or atmospheric pressure, or a combination of both.

 

[flyingron]

What about PAWS?

 

[DaleB]

I just tell the larger of my prospective passengers that the plane will barely carry my oversized carcass, so if they’re over about a buck twenty it’s a no-go. I can actually carry a lot more than that, but it’s much easier for people to say they’re over 120 than, say, 180.

 

[Half Fast]

What about PAWS?

As in “Pilots and...”?

 

[midlifeflyer]

As in “Pilots and...”?

Pilot Aircraft Weight Stress. (That last was a WAG, but no sillier than any other mnemonic)

 

[flyingron]

Precision Acquisition Vehicle Entry Phased Array Warning System

 

[IK04]

Never heard of PAVE. Is it like DEATH or IMSAFE?

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Never heard of PAVE. Is it like DEATH or IMSAFE?

It’s another stupid attempt to try to teach common sense.


Tom

 

[Kevin Holbrook]

Years and years ago before I knew anything about flying or W & B, I was boarding a Beech 99 with my wife and in laws. For W & B reasons, they were asking passenger weights on entry and keeping the cabin load distributed. My then mother-in-law without any hesitation said, "450 pounds." She was an above average sized woman, but probably closer to 225-250 pounds.

My wife asked her why she said 450 and the reply was "well I don't want them to cut it too close! We need some margin for error!"

We all arrived safely!

 

[midlifeflyer]

Never heard of PAVE. Is it like DEATH or IMSAFE?

It’s another stupid attempt to try to teach common sense.

Tom

Love that answer. Yes, what would the FAA's recent increased focus on decision-making and risk management be without a bunch of new acronyms? Don't forget PPP, CARE, TEAM and DECIDE too!

@IK04, someone mentioned it, but keeping with the policy of making the acronym more important than its content, they managed to come up with

Pilot
Aircraft
enVironment
External factors​

as sort of an umbrella mnemonic for day of flight decisions with the whole bunch underneath it. IMSAFE is the sub-moronic...um.. sub-mnemonic under the P (hmmm, I think we need a flow chart!)

 

[midlifeflyer]

Pilot Aircraft Weight Stress. (That last was a WAG, but no sillier than any other mnemonic)

Oops. Make that

Pilot Aircraft Weather Stress​

?

 

[GRG55]

Love that answer. Yes, what would the FAA's recent increased focus on decision-making and risk management be without a bunch of new acronyms? Don't forget PPP, CARE, TEAM and DECIDE too!

@IK04, someone mentioned it, but keeping with the policy of making the acronym more important than its content, they managed to come up with

Pilot
Aircraft
enVironment
External factors​

as sort of an umbrella mnemonic for day of flight decisions with the whole bunch underneath it. IMSAFE is the sub-moronic...um.. sub-mnemonic under the P (hmmm, I think we need a flow chart!)

Oops. Make that

Pilot Aircraft Weather Stress​

?

I get Stressed just trying to keep up with all the FLAA
(Four Letter Aviation Acronyms).

 

[GRG55]

My sister in law came into town this weekend, and we planned on taking her for a flight. However, she was quite a bit more woman than the last time we met several years ago. I did the weight and balance with a wild guess and it came out ok, but man that would have tested my ADM skills had the math not worked.

Hmmm. That would be a sensitive situation demanding the max from one's diplomatic skills.
How did you fit the, um, subject into the Mooney passenger seat?

 

[steingar]

I find it amusing the angst about being over weight. Yet it seems getting a temporary exemption to carry ferry tanks for long over water flights seems to be automatic.
Also there is STCs for bigger engines that increase max weight as well.
Some airplanes I think issues are more about balance than weight.
When I did my training, in a 152, I did the W&B and found out with the CFI needed to lose about 30lbs for us to be “legal”.

I don't want to cast any aspersions with this, as I used to think exactly this way. And if you're operating out of long runways in Flatistan all the time odds are nothing is going to happen. It took putting cousin Debbie in the back to nearly cause a deal. Cousin Debbie is in shape. Round is a shape. I got caught, she said she wanted to go, I love her dearly and didn't want to disappoint her. Instead I almost killed her.

Flying out of big long runways was no big deal. But flying out of a short strip in a bowl was another deal entirely. Like I said, had the temperature been a bit warmer it would have ended differently. Certainly cured me of the habit of taking the W&B as advisory. And the worst thing was I went to that strip for cheap gas. I imperiled al of us for around $20.

 

[Half Fast]

How did you fit the, um, subject into the Mooney passenger seat?

Maybe grease her hips?

 

[midlifeflyer]

I don't want to cast any aspersions with this, as I used to think exactly this way. And if you're operating out of long runways in Flatistan all the time odds are nothing is going to happen. It took putting cousin Debbie in the back to nearly cause a deal. Cousin Debbie is in shape. Round is a shape. I got caught, she said she wanted to go, I love her dearly and didn't want to disappoint her. Instead I almost killed her.

Flying out of big long runways was no big deal. But flying out of a short strip in a bowl was another deal entirely. Like I said, had the temperature been a bit warmer it would have ended differently. Certainly cured me of the habit of taking the W&B as advisory. And the worst thing was I went to that strip for cheap gas. I imperiled al of us for around $20.

With some aircraft, the "balance" part of the W&B equation is the more importance one.

 

[Bill]

These people and bags into one Skylane. Every takeoff was MGTOW, fuel stops were hourly. Had I needed to return to the airport after departure, I would have been over max landing weight, and thus would have had to dump fuel over a local school before landing.

 

[dbahn]

"Passive Airborne Warning System?"

IMSAFE is the sub-moronic...um.. sub-mnemonic under the P (hmmm, I think we need a flow chart!)

And I'm all for checklists, but how many of those items do you really need to check off vs. just already know?



I'd argue that "stress" and "fatigue" are the only two that need you to actually think about for a moment.

 

[midlifeflyer]

"Passive Airborne Warning System?"


And I'm all for checklists, but how many of those items do you really need to check off vs. just already know?

View attachment 82153

I'd argue that "stress" and "fatigue" are the only two that need you to actually think about for a moment.

Agreed. But you can't make a good mnemonic out of just two consonants and that's what's most important!

But I love IM SAFE, mostly because even the FAA still can't figure out of the final E means "Eating" or "Emotion." You'll find both versions in different FAA publications (he AIM and the Risk Management Handbook still use Emotion (I guess the authors are on a diet). If you point out that "Stress" and Emotion are the same thing," my response is the same: Save the Mnemonic at all costs!


If I recall correctly, there was even one FAA publication which used both. One was in a graphic and the other in the text discussing the graphic.

 

[dbahn]

Agreed. But you can't make a good mnemonic out of just two consonants and that's what's most important!

But I love IM SAFE, mostly because even the FAA still can't figure out of the final E means "Eating" or "Emotion." You'll find both versions in different FAA publications (he AIM and the Risk Management Handbook still use Emotion (I guess the authors are on a diet). If you point out that "Stress" and Emotion are the same thing," my response is the same: Save the Mnemonic at all costs!
View attachment 82155

If I recall correctly, there was even one FAA publication which used both. One was in a graphic and the other in the text discussing the graphic.

Not only that but "eating" is kind of silly as well. No one ever starved on flight of normal duration. Hydration is much more important, but then it would be IMSAFH.

 

[Salty]

Not only that but "eating" is kind of silly as well. No one ever starved on flight of normal duration. Hydration is much more important, but then it would be IMSAFH.

Skipping a meal can most certainly effect your performance. Especially if it's breakfast and you're flying for many hours in the morning.

 

[Sac Arrow]

So, have we actually established what PAVE means yet?

 

[steingar]

Skipping a meal can most certainly effect your performance. Especially if it's breakfast and you're flying for many hours in the morning.

Says you. I almost never eat before a flight of any duration. Big flight days often become fasting days. An occasional fast is actually really good for you.

 

[dbahn]

Skipping a meal can most certainly effect your performance. Especially if it's breakfast and you're flying for many hours in the morning.

Despite claims, I don't think that there's much science behind that scenario - certainly nowhere near the science around fatigue and around stress.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

What about PAWS?

that's a ruff one.....