The death of an insitution

Pugs said:
Patrick McManus and Grogan's war surplus lives :D
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Had to look these guys up since I have never heard of them. I gotta lot of reading to do.!!

I think every small town back then had one Army/Navy surplus store with a most memorable character running it.
 
Zeldman said:
Had to look these guys up since I have never heard of them. I gotta lot of reading to do.!!

I think every small town back then had one Army/Navy surplus store with a most memorable character running it.
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Wait until you meet Rancid Crabtree and The Troll.

Always enjoyed McManus’ stuff. A few of his books are within arm’s reach right now, in fact.
 
eman1200 said:
Did BSA actively ‘recruit girls away’ or were they pressured to let girls in who wanted to join a boys club? I’m asking because I don’t know and would have to think it wasn’t the former
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Different programs. As a bsa leader I can say I know girls who anxiously waited for the day they could work on becoming an Eagle Scout (2017) and worked their butts off to earn it.
 
Initial Fix said:
Different programs. As a bsa leader I can say I know girls who anxiously waited for the day they could work on becoming an Eagle Scout (2017) and worked their butts off to earn it.
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I wasn’t questioning the work ethic of the boys or girls.
 
When I was a Scouter, we had a Pack leader who also led the GSA troop for our charter org. When we started allowing girls in our Pack, I suggested we combine the kids into the BSA program. He was adamant that the programs are different and that GSA was the right thing for some girls.
 
Brad Z said:
My understanding is that girls will be in separate troops from the boys. There may be some overlap at organized events, but I think the idea was to separate them (for obvious reasons, teenagers on camping trips?) for most of the activities. I'm not completely sure of the details though, my son is only a Cub Scout, and the girls are in separate dens from the boys so we only see them at Pack level events. Mostly they are siblings of boy cub scouts.
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My son is currently in Boy Scouts. Male and female troops and activities are separate.

An implied question in the thread is why did the Boy Scouts add females? I suspect it was because of societal pressure and also to recapture numbers. As others in the thread have posted, the number of people interested in camping, hiking, fishing, shooting guns, preparedness, etc. is declining as the country becomes more urban. Also, the availability of places to do some of those things and the willingness for people and organizations to take risks (camping - what about lions/tigers/bears/snakes/outdoor potties!!!)...(Shotguns... You're gonna let kids shoot guns? Insanity!!!) in addition to sports and a hundred other things has hurt Scouts from a numbers perspective. So the Scouts did something to enlarge their set of potential members.

For what it is worth, my son's troop is very well managed with a bunch of great activities. This year, they have hiked part of the AT, had a campout where everyone got to shoot skeet, had a mountain biking campout, and had a campout where they camped in St Mary's Georgia and also got to tour a nuclear sub. When my son fell and hit his head on the AT hike, one of Atlanta's better plastic surgeons was one of the troop leaders on the trip and was there to make sure he was OK. Later this year, they are doing Skymont (a week long camp in Tennessee), a rafting/camping trip, and 3-4 other campouts. Next summer, I'm supposed to go to Sea Base (Florida Keys) with the troop on a week long Scuba trip. My son is very lucky in that regard. Not all troops are as active or well managed, but the families in this troop really do value life experiences, life skills, and preparedness...

For what it is worth, I see the rebranding as a mistake, but it certainly doesn't mean Scouting is nearing the end of its run...
 
Half Fast said:
Many churches (including mine) withdrew from Scouting support when the sexual abuse issues hit the press. Churches didn't want to be associated with that mess.

Plus, the general public didn't see the abuse problem and the admission of girls as two seperate things. Instead, I think many people looked at BSA and thought, "So there's a huge sex abuse problem with the Scouts, and now they're going coed. Yeah, that'll fix it...."

It is a shame. I enjoyed my time in Scouts, especially Order of the Arrow, back in the 1970s. Back then, most of the other boys lived nearby and our leaders were fathers from our neighborhood. Everybody knew everybody, and if there had ever been an abuse issue, legal problems would have been the least of the offender's worries, as our fathers probably wouldn't have left behind enough pieces of the baztard to sue anyway.
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Everybody knew everybody is pretty much dead, at least around here. Both parents work so neighborhood interaction is limited to the annual Memorial Day picnic, every house is basically a silo, most kids live on the internet while parents work or watch television, etc.
 
Randomskylane said:
Everybody knew everybody is pretty much dead, at least around here. Both parents work so neighborhood interaction is limited to the annual Memorial Day picnic, every house is basically a silo, most kids live on the internet while parents work or watch television, etc.
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Yeah, I'm afraid that's true. The local community is all but gone. We've lost more than we realize as a result.

In my neighborhood, many of the parents had grown up knowing each other, had gone to the same schools, went to the same churches, some of the dads worked together and carpooled, were members of the same lodge, etc., etc. Kids were always under the eye of somebody who knew their parents. I couldn't get away with squat.
 
Brad Z said:
but I think the idea was to separate them (for obvious reasons, teenagers on camping trips?) for
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OMG don’t get me started! Lots of tent hopping in the Explorers. Good times.
 
I was in the program in the late 80s and early 90s, it was awful… the leaders were awful, one leader missed many meetings leaving us sitting there. When they did show up they would get us in some boring project and then go chain smoke.

We camped once and made a burger n potato in foil in the fire meal, the guy told me where to put it, I went to pull it out twice, he said leave it- when I got it out at his command it was charcoal. He laughed n said there wasn’t any more eat it.

These folks were anything but woke and in my area was a crap program I exited pretty quickly. Tried CAP- pretty much same experience, a bunch of military wannabes who just wanted to march kids in a parking lot, no interest in aviation.

I think it’s beyond yawn worthy they are changing their name. The only thing that stays the same is everything changes.
 
Huckster79 said:
I was in the program in the late 80s and early 90s, it was awful… the leaders were awful, one leader missed many meetings leaving us sitting there. When they did show up they would get us in some boring project and then go chain smoke.

We camped once and made a burger n potato in foil in the fire meal, the guy told me where to put it, I went to pull it out twice, he said leave it- when I got it out at his command it was charcoal. He laughed n said there wasn’t any more eat it.

These folks were anything but woke and in my area was a crap program I exited pretty quickly. Tried CAP- pretty much same experience, a bunch of military wannabes who just wanted to march kids in a parking lot, no interest in aviation.

I think it’s beyond yawn worthy they are changing their name. The only thing that stays the same is everything changes.
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We have lost a lot. Men used to care and inculcate values. I feel like a refugee from Atlantis trying to explain how it used to be. It was good.
 
My outside impression is that the value of scouting to a child depends a lot on the adult scout leaders. A good one can make it a long lasting positive experience, and a bad one can make it boring and pointless.

This is not new. I never got into scouting, mainly because my Dad never encouraged it... because when he was a scout (in the 1930s) they never did much more than tie knots. OTOH, one of my co-workers kids have been very active, going on multiple serious packpacking trips and other activities. Fortunately for me, I grew up wandering the woods on my own, hiking and canoeing and building forts and such, and learned many other skills from working with the adults in the family camp where we had a cabin for many years.

My son in law is from New Zealand. They do it different there... they have the "Rovers", which is open to boys and young men up to age 27 (I believe there is a parallel girl's organization). I think this is a great idea; in US society there seems to be a disconnect between adolescents and young men, so the boys don't learn how to behave as men, from men close enough to their age that they can relate. Older men are still around as advisers, of course. At the local Rover's Den (a building on a residential street in the case of my SIL's group), there is even a bar (underage boys are excluded, of course, though in NZ the drinking age is 18).
 
How many of you are going to change your opinion of an Eagle due to this?
 
TCABM said:
How many of you are going to change your opinion of an Eagle due to this?
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I’ve always admired anyone who had the drive and tenacity to earn Eagle Scout. I don’t think I ever made it past First Class…. Maybe Star, I really don’t remember. But I think somewhere I still have an OA pin.
 
I was a boy scout for 3 or 4 years. Our troop was a hard core backpacking troop. One weekend a month, year round, we were racking up miles on the Appalachian Trail. I did not earn much rank or merit badges, but I learned skills that served me well during my career in the Army. Things like how to sleep cold and wet, with sore feet and a tired back.

My sons were both Eagle Scouts. I won't say it was a formative experience for them like it was for me; but, they did have fun and got to see and do things they otherwise wouldn't have. Maybe it kept them away from some of the things bored suburban teens are exposed to these days.

I thought allowing girls was a mistake. But now that I've seen it, I changed my mind. The kind of girls that want to do it tend to fit in just fine.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I thought allowing girls was a mistake. But now that I've seen it, I changed my mind. The kind of girls that want to do it tend to fit in just fine.
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Good point. I was sort of thinking the same thing in the back of my mind, and you articulated it for me.
 
DaleB said:
But I think somewhere I still have an OA pin.
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I still have my sash. E. Urner Goodman, who founded OA, retired to FL and was a member of our lodge. Neat, neat guy. He autographed my Brotherhood sash.

OA, the original WWW. ;)
 
For the history buffs, BsA has been evolving on a co-ed basis during my entire association with the organization, going to the early 1980s as a Cub Scout.

Female adult leaders have been around since well before then. Explorers and Venturing units were co-ed since at least the 70s. ‘Rank’ advancement programs across the various programs were, at times, their own separate programs or dual-track programs where boys could choose to advance either using the traditional Eagle trail or the Explorer or Venturing trail.

BSA has been a part of the World Order since the beginning. As an Trans Atlantic Council Scout leader, I got to interact with Scouts in a number of European countries, most of the Scout movements there were co-ed; that didn’t seem to impact their outdoors/high adventure programs but, like any program, the strength of Scouting is the local Troop.

The name change to Scouting America is likely the least significant change to the program in recent decades. I’m okay with it.
 
Been many things, but never a Boy Scout.

Big brother was a Scout, and there was no way I was going to be a tenderfoot under him. Besides, I loathe camping. Joined CAP instead, went well, got my pilot's license through the program. Only had to camp a couple of times. We had girls in the unit, camped with us with no problems. One ended up as one of the first female cadets at West Point.

Ron Wanttaja
 
I've been a very active scout leader for the last ten years. Worn many hats. Currently an assistant scoutmaster, merit badge counselor, district committee member and Eagle advisor. My oldest is a few months away from Eagle, and my younger son is well on his way to Eagle.

Some comments based on other posts:

1) Scouting isn't dead. LDS leaving scouting was a hit, as was COVID, but the membership numbers have been stable the last few years, and the number of Cubs is picking up after COVID. The LDS units hardly ever interacted with the rest of the scout units, so from a program standpoint, nothing was really lost (except $) with their departure in my area. Some LDS have joined regular units. Our medium-sized city has three troops that are over 100 years old. Three larger troops and a few smaller troops. Each has it's own character, and we encourage youth to go to the troop that best fits them.

2) The problem with getting more kids in scouting isn't helicopter parents, it's parents that either too overwhelmed with work responsibilities (both parents working long hours), or parents who are afraid to try something new for themselves, even though they might want it for their kids. i.e., parents who don't know how to lead by example. This is definitely a generational problem. It is much easier to get the Gen X parents to volunteer than the younger parents; although that may be that Gen X is more established in their careers and has more control over their work schedules.

3) BSA has definitely made volunteering harder. More training, more rules. It isn't easy to be a BSA volunteer. We have the inexcusable behaviors of the past, along with the same excess of lawyering involved in everything now to blame. The rules definitely make it safer, but a good bit of it (not related to abuse prevention) definitely goes too far, IMO.

4) Girls in scouting has been a good addition. There are many girls who thrive in the BSA programs. It doesn't detract from the boys' program. In several ways it challenges the boys to take the program more seriously, because most of the girls take it more seriously. There will be a pilot program starting next year with some co-ed troops. It really isn't hard to manage, and there are strict rules for how this will work. Most other countries with scouting have a co-ed program.

5) Scouting vs. Sports. I'm just going to quote a recent line from our very experienced Scoutmaster when we were discussing this issue. He points to our big wall plaque with all of our troop's Eagles names and says "I can tell you what sport nearly everyone of them played." And he isn't wrong. I've participated in a couple dozen Eagle Boards of Review in the past two years, and at least 80% of these Eagle Scouts (boys and girls) played a varsity sport. Virtually every other one was heavily involved some other major activity. You can prioritize multiple things. My older son isn't an athlete, but does a ton of stuff outside of scouting, and he's completed three major high adventure trips. My younger son does football and wrestling, and is doing his third major high adventure trip next month. Scouting teaches leadership and time management.
 
If you think volunteering for BSA is a buerocratic headache, try doing the paperwork to chaperone a girl scouts activity. My daughter had some sleep away thing and my wife was one of chaperones. I have bought houses with less paperwork than it took to get her through the GSA buerocracy.
 
kyleb said:
An implied question in the thread is why did the Boy Scouts add females? I suspect it was because of societal pressure and also to recapture numbers. As others in the thread have posted, the number of people interested in camping, hiking, fishing, shooting guns, preparedness, etc. is declining as the country becomes more urban. Also, the availability of places to do some of those things and the willingness for people and organizations to take risks (camping - what about lions/tigers/bears/snakes/outdoor potties!!!)...(Shotguns... You're gonna let kids shoot guns? Insanity!!!) in addition to sports and a hundred other things has hurt Scouts from a numbers perspective. So the Scouts did something to enlarge their set of potential members.
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As to the 'why', it may just be that the leadership realized that excluding potential members solely based on gender did nothing to further the mission of the organization.

As for the influence of urbanization. Some of the strongest troops are in suburban and urban areas where this is one of the best opportunities to give kids an opportunity to experience the outdoors. Truly rural kids dont need a social club to learn what a shotgun is and how to build a fire.
 
weilke said:
As to the 'why', it may just be that the leadership realized that excluding potential members solely based on gender did nothing to further the mission of the organization.
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Many parents of sons felt it was beneficial to have an environment where boys could just relax and be boys, and be mentored on how to be good men. Character development was always a large part of the mission. The phrase "boy scout" is literally slang for a dutiful young man who does good deeds, helping old ladies across the street and that kind of thing. BSA has never been just a camping and shooting club.

That is not an unreasonable viewpoint. Boys get plenty of mixed gender interaction in public schools, but character does have a gender specific component. Boys and young men need mentoring by men, and for some kids scouting is the only opportunity for that.

Every society in history has had some kind of behavioral code to help men control and direct their more challenging attributes into socially positive actions. One could argue many of the problems with young men today come from being unmoored from guidance or expectations on being a good man.

But times change. BSA was in danger of becoming a polarized entity. There was also a population of girls under-served by the girl scouts, who wanted and deserved more. Hopefully those running the organization now don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
Every society in history has had some kind of behavioral code to help men control and direct their more challenging attributes into socially positive actions. One could argue many of the problems with young men today come from being unmoored from guidance or expectations on being a good man.
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Spend some time around teenage girls and you'll find many of them have the same issues as the boys. My kids' junior high had quite a few fights break out. The boys were not the ones fighting.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Every society in history has had some kind of behavioral code to help men control and direct their more challenging attributes into socially positive actions. One could argue many of the problems with young men today come from being unmoored from guidance or expectations on being a good man.
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To an overwhelming extent, such codes were limited to those in the higher social orders. A British gentleman in 1850 might be taught a code to live by, but what about his thousands of contemporaries in the slums of Glasgow? The gentleman might be taught to give his opponent a hand up if he's knocked down in a fight, but the Glaswegians will be taught that's it's then the perfect time to "put the boot in."

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
....but the Glaswegians will be taught that's it's then the perfect time to "put the boot in."
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That's a different, and less savory, code, but it's still a code. Codes are derived from a society's idea of ethics, and not all ethics are the same.
 
What many who are not involved in scouting may not realize is that "Duty to God" is still a very integral part of scouting. My son's Cub Scout pack is in a very left of center upper middle class urban area and every year I watch the other scout leaders tap dance around the issue. Every year at "intro to scouting night" a random blue haired mom (the modern version of blue hair) always seems to proudly get up during Q&A and ask about this. we are sponsors by an elementary school PTA so we have be a little careful and how we deal with these issues, but ultimately the scouting belief is that there is a higher power the scout must ultimately answer to, whether that be God, Allah, Yahweh, Buddha, etc. That answer doesn't particularly please the atheists, but ultimately I didn't become a scout leader to debate theology either.
 
Brad Z said:
What many who are not involved in scouting may not realize is that "Duty to God" is still a very integral part of scouting. My son's Cub Scout pack is in a very left of center upper middle class urban area and every year I watch the other scout leaders tap dance around the issue. Every year at "intro to scouting night" a random blue haired mom (the modern version of blue hair) always seems to proudly get up during Q&A and ask about this. we are sponsors by an elementary school PTA so we have be a little careful and how we deal with these issues, but ultimately the scouting belief is that there is a higher power the scout must ultimately answer to, whether that be God, Allah, Yahweh, Buddha, etc. That answer doesn't particularly please the atheists, but ultimately I didn't become a scout leader to debate theology either.
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Buddha is not a god. BSA also accepts several other "religions" that are not "classically monotheistic". And this is nothing new; the first Buddhist Boy Scout troop in the US was formed in 1920. "Duty to God" is interpreted very broadly to be whatever the scout/their family says it is. Or, at least it can be/should be, but that does vary between units. Short of saying "I'm atheist, and I believe in absolutely nothing beyond my own selfish existence", there isn't a "wrong" answer to a question about Duty to God.

I particularly enjoyed the interaction with our Ranger a few years ago at the Philmont Scout Ranch, when he was asking about how our Troop's crew was doing our Duty to God. Then he looked at our roster and saw: two Jews, two Sikhs, two Muslims, two Catholics, two Protestants and two unaffiliated. - "Hmmm, I guess you'll figured that out..." It was a good chuckle for our group. (Yes, our troop is almost a mini-United Nations of scouting. It's great.)
 
This thread has been great for me. I grew up in scouting and am glad I did. But I had no clue that it was so closely associated with churches! In our area dens and troops were exclusively attached to schools. Major TIL moment for me on that one!

Travel sports probably have some effect, but only about 25% of kids do them. So it's deeper than that. I think the other big deal is that kids don't need to leave the house to be entertained anymore. Video games, streaming media and other screen based activities are super effective at keeping kids engaged while at home. Coupled with a generational shift in parenting from parents that used to kick kids out of the house and tell them not to come back until the streetlights came on, to parents that see a threat behind every bush and are scared to have their kids be unsupervised.
 
Brad Z said:
What many who are not involved in scouting may not realize is that "Duty to God" is still a very integral part of scouting.
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In my long-ago Civil Air Patrol cadet days, our promotions were set on passing tests on ~six books. You'd get a ribbon and a stripe for each book, and eventually take the overall test that would make you a cadet officer.

The final book was called "Operation Countdown," written by an Air Force chaplain and two other chaplains listed as editors. The copy I have is the second edition, published in 1966.

It is non-sectarian. It certainly touches on major religious points, but is not limited to the Judaeo-Christian point of view.

I hadn't looked at the book since the '70s. Being a long-lapsed Catholic and current agnostic, I expected to find a lot of heavy-handed religious themes. It doesn't have them...instead, it's a well-written tome on making moral choices. It quotes Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Confucian, Buddhist, and Hindu sources. It's very nicely done.

"When a people become so forked-tongued that they have to constantly assure or be assured about statements made in the course of normal conversation, something is wrong. This is symptomatic of a weakening of our overall integrity, and we had better give the matter some serious consideration."

- "Operation Countdown," Chaplain (Lt. Col. Vernon F. Kullowatz, USAF

Found it online:


BTW, I never had to read the book or take the test. At the time, if you passed the Private Pilot Written, you got credit for this and three other books in the CAP curriculum....I went from two stripes to six overnight. Made some of the others mad....

Ron Wanttaja
 
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