TFR's for empty stadiums?

NordicDave said:
No, the post was not a joke. It is easy to have a cynical view of the value of the TFR, large gatherings of people on high profile activities are targets.

I also posted previously I would like to see some evidence from the government that these TFR are actually beneficial to security. It’s a topic I wish a congressional subcommittee would look at.
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The stadium TFR has a 3 mile radius, up to 3000' AGL. How long do you think any plane larger than an ultralight, or a Cub, would take to get to the center of a TFR?
Hint: 1.5 minutes worst case. A lot less some places, since ATC clears people through them (Disney, Nebraska football, many others). Ask yourself if that is enough time to stop a threat.
 
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QUALIFYING LOCATIONS AND EVENTS ARE DEFINED AS ANY STADIUM OR OTHER SPORTING VENUE HAVING A SEATING CAPACITY OF 30,000 OR MORE WHERE: 1) A REGULAR OR POST SEASON MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL ... GAME IS OCCURRING;
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A couple years ago the Royal's had their final pre-season game in their home stadium. I was wondering if anyone would take the chance and fly over the stadium. The TFR only mentions regular and post-season games. Nobody did.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
The stadium TFR has a 3 mile radius, up to 3000' AGL. How long do you think any plane larger than an ultralight, or a Cub, would take to get to the center of a TFR?
Hint: 1.5 minutes worst case. A lot less some places, since ATC clears people through them (Disney, Nebraska football, many others). Ask yourself if that is enough time to stop a threat.
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I can do it faster. I just go to 3001', fly to the middle and them I'm in the middle of the TFR in as long as it takes me to drop a foot.

The bigger question is what threat they are trying to solve. I mean, other than banner towing and skywriting for the competition?
 
Cap'n Jack said:
The stadium TFR has a 3 mile radius, up to 3000' AGL. How long do you think any plane larger than an ultralight, or a Cub, would take to get to the center of a TFR?
Hint: 1.5 minutes worst case. A lot less some places, since ATC clears people through them (Disney, Nebraska football, many others). Ask yourself if that is enough time to stop a threat.
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Back to my previous posts. I would like congressional oversight on the topic of event TFR‘s and are they part of some plan we can’t figure out. I think DHS believes it’s part of a multi layered security strategy. Have they or are they effective in deterring terrorism or other mischief.

We all know a TFR will not stop and airplane from diving into a venue. I would still like to know what value the government thinks TFR provides. It’s a perfect opportunity for congressional oversight, if the Congress is more mature and actually did what you’re supposed to do to provide oversight for the regulations that impact us the most.

And while they’re at it they could ask if you questions like do we still need to take our shoes off to get onto a commercial flight.

bflynn said:
The bigger question is what threat they are trying to solve. I mean, other than banner towing and skywriting for the competition?
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Exactly.
 
bflynn said:
.....The bigger question is what threat they are trying to solve. I mean, other than banner towing and skywriting for the competition?
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My take: the general public consists of some pretty stupid people. Likewise, you can’t have ‘an incident’, be it a terrorist attack or threat of it or whatever, and do nothing about it. Enter TFR’s. “See, John Q Public, we did something about it”. Then at the end of the year, some high level pencil pusher gets to say ‘see, because of our TFRs there were no incidents’.
 
Not sure how many of you remember this incident in Baltimore in the 70's.

MD-Baltimore-plane-into-Memorial-Stadium-2.jpg
 
No, I didn't remember that. A buzz job at 10 feet above the field inside the stadium because he was ****ed off and was then unable to climb back out.
https://ghostsofbaltimore.org/2013/11/11/plane-crashes-into-memorial-stadium/
"The pilot of a light plane who crashed in the top deck of Baltimore’s Memorial Stadium after Sunday’s playoff football game had been free on $2,100 bond on a previous charge of reckless flying, the authorities said yesterday. For four years before last October, the pilot had been grounded for psychiatric reasons, the authorities said."

A semi legitimate excuse for the TFRs would be worries about a mid air between banner tows, but other than that...
 
Cap'n Jack said:
The stadium TFR has a 3 mile radius, up to 3000' AGL. How long do you think any plane larger than an ultralight, or a Cub, would take to get to the center of a TFR?
Hint: 1.5 minutes worst case. A lot less some places, since ATC clears people through them (Disney, Nebraska football, many others). Ask yourself if that is enough time to stop a threat.
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We went to Orlando in January, flying into Kissimmee. I was on FF, and the controller told me to go direct KISS, which would taken me right through the Disney TFR. Since she didn't say anything about it, I turned to stay outside. Shortly thereafter, she says, "Sir, you can go through the TFR as long as you are talking to me. Proceed direct Kissimmee. " We could see the people walking around the world showcase at Epcot. It's not about security.
 
Jim K said:
"Sir, you can go through the TFR as long as you are talking to me.
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OK - You've changed my world view on TFR's. I've never heard anyone every mention this before. I was under the impression that TFR's were essentially the same as Restricted. In no case can you enter unless you fit a few certain exceptions.

Thanks for this post - I learn something new every day.
 
WDD said:
I was under the impression that TFR's were essentially the same as Restricted. In no case can you enter unless you fit a few certain exceptions.
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FDC 7/4319
"UNLESS THE AIRCRAFT OPERATOR MEETS AT LEAST ONE OF THE FOLLOWING REQUIREMENTS: A) THE AIRCRAFT OPERATION HAS BEEN AUTHORIZED BY ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY PURPOSES, INCLUDING AUTHORIZATION OF FLIGHTS SPECIFICALLY ARRIVING AT OR DEPARTING FROM AN AIRPORT DESIGNATED BY ATC USING STANDARD ATC PROCEDURES AND ROUTES;"
"PILOTS MUST CONTINUOUSLY SQUAWK AN ATC-ASSIGNED BEACON CODE AND MAINTAIN 2-WAY RADIO CONTACT WITH ATC WHILE OPERATING IN THE DEFINED AIRSPACE."
 
WDD said:
OK - You've changed my world view on TFR's. I've never heard anyone every mention this before. I was under the impression that TFR's were essentially the same as Restricted. In no case can you enter unless you fit a few certain exceptions.

Thanks for this post - I learn something new every day.
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when there's a TFR for that stupid nascar stuff here at charlotte motor speedway, JQF is WITHIN the dang TFR. so you'd never be able to get in or out if it was completely restricted. you basically just have to coordinate with tower/approach and they may send you around in a funky direction but you can still takeoff/land within the TFR as long as ur talking to them.
 
It's easy to have a cynical view of the Disney one. Why just Disney properties? What about every other theme park in the country? What about other places people gather?
Nope, this one was Disney wielding political clout to remove a thorn from their side, banner tows primarily over the Florida properties.
 
Used to visit Disney and land Fullerton a bunch ... often with hops over to Catalina. The Fullerton guys always knew I was coming from Texas and would offer vectors to land every time (even though not needed). Every outbound trip to Catalina would get a "turn" to plow through the Disney TFR ... I confirmed it EVERYTIME and SoCAL said they owned it and were "turning me for traffic" <wink wink> and all was good as I was already squawking and talking as previously posted.

EDIT: Micah the Helicopter video guy has his up on YouTube, but he wasn't allowed to loiter
 
WDD said:
OK - You've changed my world view on TFR's. I've never heard anyone every mention this before. I was under the impression that TFR's were essentially the same as Restricted. In no case can you enter unless you fit a few certain exceptions.

Thanks for this post - I learn something new every day.
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Actually it IS the same as a permanent restricted area.... ATC can clear you through those, too.... they just don't because there's usually an actual reason for them to exist.

LewDix aviation on YouTube flies out of Orlando and often transits the Disney TFR. Usually just in normal operations, but occasionally he specifically requests to fly over Disney. The response is no problem, you just can't linger or orbit; fly straight through.
 
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