TFR's for empty stadiums?

AlphaMike

AlphaMike

Line Up and Wait
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AlphaMike
Anyone know why they are issuing TFRs for baseball games even though there are no fans at the parks? I thought it had to be 30k people or something like that?
 
The standing stadium TFR rule talks about, in effect, MLB, NFL, NASCAR, etc. venues with capacity of 30,000 or more. Doesn’t matter to the rule how many are actually there, or if they’re only cardboard cutouts.

:rolleyes:
 
If attendance were a requirement, there'd be no TFR over half the league. Only the top 14 teams in attendance average out to more than 30,000/game.
 
I flew through Chicago last weekend and the stadium TFRs were active..a pilot inquired, ATC didn't know, but came back and said yes they were.
 
I watched 1/2 inning of a baseball game on tv. The announcers weren’t at the stadium and they played recorded crowd noises.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
Disneyland TFR has been active and no one has been to the park in months.
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Disney's TFR has never been about security, only corporate profits. George Washington has been dead for over two centuries and there's still a prohibited area over his house.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
There hasn't been a single terrorist attack on a stadium since the TFRs were put into place. Obviously they are working. :rolleyes:
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Yep, and it hasn't hit any of the smaller stadiums, or stadiums used by major league or college soccer, or college football other than division I, or rock concerts... etc..
 
I used to work at a NASCAR Saturday night bullring. One week a bunch of SAE students had a race for electric race cars. That was very eerie watching a race where the cars weren't making any appreciable noise.
 
They might not be “in” the stadiums, but I heard on the radio this morning that “The Battery” was packed last night for the Braves home opener. The Battery is a development with Truist Park that has restaurants, bars and shopping.
 
Zeldman said:
Can the players hear the simulated crowd noise.??

I would bet it is a weird feeling to play to total silence.
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Eh, up until last year I played in an adult baseball league, there aren't many fans there. The chatter just comes from the dugout. Still as much fun to play without crowd noise, but I don't guess I've ever been paying baseball in front of 30K fans. I have performed halftime shows and competitions in front of 90K+ dozens of times, and I don't think it would be significantly different other than it being much easier to communicate to each other.
 
AlphaMike said:
Not for the Detroit Tigers They got use to it last year! LOL
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images
 
rsleeds said:
They aren't issuing TFR's - the standing TFR has been in effect for 18-19 years?
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Yep, someone in the DHS watched Black Sunday a few too many times. Of course, the TFR wouldn't stop the plot line used in that book/movie.
 
unsafervguy said:
the best part of that movie was when they were in formation and she called out "SPEED 200mph" thats one fast pa28
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Actually she said "speed two-two-zero," no units specified. Since it was a British production, the screenwriter might have meant kilometers per hour. That's about 138 mph or 120 knots. The Cherokee 180s and 235 in the formation could do that, but the Cherokee 140 and the Cherokee 150 would have had to pedal pretty hard to keep up.
 
Pilawt said:
The standing stadium TFR rule talks about, in effect, MLB, NFL, NASCAR, etc. venues with capacity of 30,000 or more. Doesn’t matter to the rule how many are actually there, or if they’re only cardboard cutouts.

:rolleyes:
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Capacity, not attendance is the rule. I propose that ATC be furnished the actual attendance in real time. Kind of like they get WX info. We could all then just go where and when we want.
 
Zeldman said:
Can the players hear the simulated crowd noise.??
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Yes, it's played over the stadium loudspeakers during the game.

The soundtracks come from a videogame, MLB 20, and each stadium is free to play any track, at any volume it chooses. In one recent Cubs home game, the stadium played a soundtrack of fans booing, when a certain Brewer came to the plate who was, in fact, often booed by Cubs fans in past years.

In another recent Cubs game, when the fake crowd noise was turned down, it was easy for players to shout and be heard. There was a kerfuffle that developed after a lot of bickering between the two dugouts. This led players to leave the dugout, and go onto the field to argue in person. After that, in the next game, the fake crowd noise volume was turned up. So apparently, the fake crowd noise does serve a useful purpose - it drowns out arguments between the two teams, and helps keep the peace.
 
It’s easy to have a cynical view of TRF’s for Disneyland is for profits, or other various reasons. The truth is these are national targets for crazy people with a long list of terrorist threats. Same with an empty sports stadium with a high profile team playing. Still a target with a national audience watching on TV.

Security works in layers and the TFR is just one of the layers we can see.
 
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NordicDave said:
It’s easy to have a cynical view of TRF’s for Disneyland is for profits, or other various reasons. The truth is these are national targets for crazy people with a long list of terrorist threats. Same with an empty sports stadium with a high profile team playing. Still a target with a national audience watching on TV.

Security works in layers and the TFR is just one of the layers we can see.
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Or, it's a knee jerk reaction to a single terrorist attack event which results in regulations that terrorists wouldn't abide by anyway. Short of maybe the Washington Nationals (or others inside the FRZ), there's not a damn thing anyone could do to stop a terrorist from loading up a Citation X full of C4 and barreling into a packed sports stadium. They fly a common route for Chicago O'Hare and then peel off and put the payload right into Wrigley Field. It's called security theater.
 
NordicDave said:
It’s easy to have a cynical view of TRF’s for Disneyland is for profits, or other various reasons. The truth is these are national targets for crazy people with a long list of terrorist threats. Same with an empty sports stadium with a high profile team playing. Still a target with a national audience watching on TV.

Security works in layers and the TFR is just one of the layers we can see.
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Unless they've deployed SAMS to Space Mountain and have "shoot first" as their ROE the TFR Makes zero difference to security for any of this. Disney or regular events TFRs are a bad joke. By the time the command loop is over and a decision is made the possible threat event will be done. Larger TFRs like the capital region DO have SAMS and people on alert as well as multiple layers of means to warn an interloper before "warning red, weapons free' is given and even then people get WAY into the largest TFR there is and no one has been bagged.

The pop-up TFRs for events and Disney are security theater driven by politics.
 
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I'm not attempting to convince anyone that event TFR's are great. They are a pain in the tail here in the bay area, especially late summer or early fall when the Giants, Berkeley Bears, Stanford, A's, and 49'ers have overlapping events.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Or, it's a knee jerk reaction to a single terrorist attack event which results in regulations that terrorists wouldn't abide by anyway. Short of maybe the Washington Nationals (or others inside the FRZ), there's not a damn thing anyone could do to stop a terrorist from loading up a Citation X full of C4 and barreling into a packed sports stadium. They fly a common route for Chicago O'Hare and then peel off and put the payload right into Wrigley Field. It's called security theater.
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Right after 9/11/01 the TSA was very afraid of this scenario. Not only did they create the stadium TFRs, they published a proposed rule for corporate aircraft operating part 91. As you would probably guess it was oppressive, expensive and unrealistic. I it was also written with zero, none, nada input from the industry or anyone with aviation experienceI. It was published as a proposed rule and industry along with the alphabets booed it down. It never surfaced again. But the thought you express was exactly what drove the NPRM. I am hoping TSA does not read this though I imagine NSA will.
 
NordicDave said:
It’s easy to have a cynical view of TRF’s for Disneyland is for profits, or other various reasons. The truth is these are national targets for crazy people with a long list of terrorist threats. Same with an empty sports stadium with a high profile team playing. Still a target with a national audience watching on TV.

Security works in layers and the TFR is just one of the layers we can see.
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If that were actually the reason, then it's even dumber. The Disneyland and stadium TFRs are so small that even if anyone ever did plan to respond to a violation in real time, there'd be zero time to prevent an airborne attack or even evacuate. These TFRs only make sense as an effort to preserve the scenery and exclude banner tows.
 
Layers of security or not--criminals don't care about TFRs and for most of the day to day events the size of a normal TFR will not allow time for a security response. This is really just a feel good effort to make the uninformed public feel like we're doing sometime to prevent these cowardly acts from occurring.
 
I would like to better understand what the actual value of these TFR’s really are from a threat prevention standpoint. It’s easy to take a cynical view that they’re completely worthless. Maybe they are. At some point I would like to understand how it fits into the overall mosaic of homeland security. if the congress was more mature, it would be nice if they would hold hearings on topics that actually matter to govern country in a more affective manner.
 
flyingron said:
Keeps aircraft from stealing signs.
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So, we only need these over Houston :p

Pilawt said:
Actually she said "speed two-two-zero," no units specified. Since it was a British production, the screenwriter might have meant kilometers per hour. That's about 138 mph or 120 knots. The Cherokee 180s and 235 in the formation could do that, but the Cherokee 140 and the Cherokee 150 would have had to pedal pretty hard to keep up.
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The Brits still use Miles, let alone 50 years ago.

NordicDave said:
It’s easy to have a cynical view of TRF’s for Disneyland is for profits, or other various reasons. The truth is these are national targets for crazy people with a long list of terrorist threats. Same with an empty sports stadium with a high profile team playing. Still a target with a national audience watching on TV.

Security works in layers and the TFR is just one of the layers we can see.
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You are joking, right?

NordicDave said:
I would like to better understand what the actual value of these TFR’s really are from a threat prevention standpoint. It’s easy to take a cynical view that they’re completely worthless. Maybe they are. At some point I would like to understand how it fits into the overall mosaic of homeland security. if the congress was more mature, it would be nice if they would hold hearings on topics that actually matter to govern country in a more affective manner.
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There is zero value to these TFRs, except to the commercial entities that lobbied for them.
 
NordicDave said:
I would like to better understand what the actual value of these TFR’s really are from a threat prevention standpoint.
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The TFRs tell the evildoers where to aim and highlight that there's an event of notoriety in progress. No ideas of where to cause havoc? Open your EFB up and look for the the red circles...
 
Another way to deal with TFRs is to be going in or out of an affected airport. The final approach to rwy 06 at KPUW goes almost directly over the WSU stadium. And I have seen Horizon Q400s make that approach during football games. Not me, I'm in my seat in the stands during the game, so I've already arrived (either by plane or car), but that's the way it works there. Likewise when watching a Mariner's baseball game and traffic is landing south at SEA.

TFRs created for clearing an area for firefighting planes make sense (and we, unfortunately, get plenty of them in the summer), but stadium TFRs are security circus, nothing more.
 
I’m curious about Disney and stadium TFR’s. I mean, your average Joe has no idea there is a restriction over Disneyland. In order to have “theater”, wouldn’t people have to know about it?
 
NordicDave said:
It’s easy to have a cynical view of TRF’s for Disneyland is for profits, or other various reasons. The truth is these are national targets for crazy people with a long list of terrorist threats. Same with an empty sports stadium with a high profile team playing. Still a target with a national audience watching on TV.

Security works in layers and the TFR is just one of the layers we can see.
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N1120A said:
You are joking, right?
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No, the post was not a joke. It is easy to have a cynical view of the value of the TFR, large gatherings of people on high profile activities are targets.

I also posted previously I would like to see some evidence from the government that these TFR are actually beneficial to security. It’s a topic I wish a congressional subcommittee would look at.
 
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