Wow, it's amazing mankind and technology have progressed at all. "If at first you don't succeed, **** it and go back to what worked before." Let's live like the Amish.
Tesla, the absolute best car!
- Thread starter RotorAndWing
- Start date
Dav8or
Final Approach
Here's the great part- you can own both. Why do people with "gasoline in their blood" fear the electric car so much? It's a total failure, soon everyone will see how terrible they are and they will go away, right? Oh no, wait. Too many brain washed Obama zombies out there that will buy them no matter what! Soon, Obama will mandate that everyone must own an electric car. Holy crap!! Get your shotgun and your axe! The zombie hoards are upon us in their Teslas!
If God had intended us to drive around with electricity, he wouldn't have given us gasoline. Clearly this is some trick of the Devil! How could electrons possibly move a vehicle? It's a trick to make us loose faith in the holy piston! Sweet Mother of Exxon! Let us pray one of the foul creations of Satan should catch fire and awaken the masses to the wretched plot before us!
JimNtexas
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Jim - In Texas!
I think car fires are pretty common in gas powered cars. Ask your local fireman. I had a Honda Accord catch fire while I was driving it.
Interestingly, the Tesla told the driver that it had been damaged to suggested that he pull over.
I'm seeing a bunch of Tesla's on the road here in Austin, even though the state of Texas makes it almost impossible for Tesla to actually market the cars here.
Interestingly, the Tesla told the driver that it had been damaged to suggested that he pull over.
I'm seeing a bunch of Tesla's on the road here in Austin, even though the state of Texas makes it almost impossible for Tesla to actually market the cars here.
Ask your local firemen about Tesla.
Tesla CEO Elon Musk blames firefighters for cutting through firewall to put out the fire. But isn't Tesla designers at fault for not providing access point(s) for emergency responders to effectively deluge a battery fire? Tesla not concerned about that aspect of safety?
Isn't lithium a class D fire? Will a deluge of water do anything useful? I though copper powder was the preferred medium on lithium fires.
AdamZ
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Adam Zucker
Oh I'm not so sure about that a 70 or 71 Olds 442 convertible comes pretty close!:wink2:
John221us
En-Route
I think I saw you on the road! You have that written on your back window, right?
Dav8or
Final Approach
Why is that? No tax credit? How can a state make marketing a car difficult?
Tesla sells direct to the consumer, Texas law doesn't allow that, they require franchise dealerships, no factory dealerships allowed.
Non Compos Mentis
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Non Compos Mentis
Excerpt from an email I received from Elon Musk:
Earlier this week, a Model S traveling at highway speed struck a large metal object, causing significant damage to the vehicle. A curved section that fell off a semi-trailer was recovered from the roadway near where the accident occurred and, according to the road crew that was on the scene, appears to be the culprit. The geometry of the object caused a powerful lever action as it went under the car, punching upward and impaling the Model S with a peak force on the order of 25 tons. Only a force of this magnitude would be strong enough to punch a 3 inch diameter hole through the quarter inch armor plate protecting the base of the vehicle.
The Model S owner was nonetheless able to exit the highway as instructed by the onboard alert system, bring the car to a stop and depart the vehicle without injury. A fire caused by the impact began in the front battery module – the battery pack has a total of 16 modules – but was contained to the front section of the car by internal firewalls within the pack. Vents built into the battery pack directed the flames down towards the road and away from the vehicle.
When the fire department arrived, they observed standard procedure, which was to gain access to the source of the fire by puncturing holes in the top of the battery's protective metal plate and applying water. For the Model S lithium-ion battery, it was correct to apply water (vs. dry chemical extinguisher), but not to puncture the metal firewall, as the newly created holes allowed the flames to then vent upwards into the front trunk section of the Model S. Nonetheless, a combination of water followed by dry chemical extinguisher quickly brought the fire to an end.
It is important to note that the fire in the battery was contained to a small section near the front by the internal firewalls built into the pack structure. At no point did fire enter the passenger compartment.
Had a conventional gasoline car encountered the same object on the highway, the result could have been far worse. A typical gasoline car only has a thin metal sheet protecting the underbody, leaving it vulnerable to destruction of the fuel supply lines or fuel tank, which causes a pool of gasoline to form and often burn the entire car to the ground. In contrast, the combustion energy of our battery pack is only about 10% of the energy contained in a gasoline tank and is divided into 16 modules with firewalls in between. As a consequence, the effective combustion potential is only about 1% that of the fuel in a comparable gasoline sedan.
The nationwide driving statistics make this very clear: there are 150,000 car fires per year according to the National Fire Protection Association, and Americans drive about 3 trillion miles per year according to the Department of Transportation. That equates to 1 vehicle fire for every 20 million miles driven, compared to 1 fire in over 100 million miles for Tesla. This means you are 5 times more likely to experience a fire in a conventional gasoline car than a Tesla!
For consumers concerned about fire risk, there should be absolutely zero doubt that it is safer to power a car with a battery than a large tank of highly flammable liquid.
— Elon
Earlier this week, a Model S traveling at highway speed struck a large metal object, causing significant damage to the vehicle. A curved section that fell off a semi-trailer was recovered from the roadway near where the accident occurred and, according to the road crew that was on the scene, appears to be the culprit. The geometry of the object caused a powerful lever action as it went under the car, punching upward and impaling the Model S with a peak force on the order of 25 tons. Only a force of this magnitude would be strong enough to punch a 3 inch diameter hole through the quarter inch armor plate protecting the base of the vehicle.
The Model S owner was nonetheless able to exit the highway as instructed by the onboard alert system, bring the car to a stop and depart the vehicle without injury. A fire caused by the impact began in the front battery module – the battery pack has a total of 16 modules – but was contained to the front section of the car by internal firewalls within the pack. Vents built into the battery pack directed the flames down towards the road and away from the vehicle.
When the fire department arrived, they observed standard procedure, which was to gain access to the source of the fire by puncturing holes in the top of the battery's protective metal plate and applying water. For the Model S lithium-ion battery, it was correct to apply water (vs. dry chemical extinguisher), but not to puncture the metal firewall, as the newly created holes allowed the flames to then vent upwards into the front trunk section of the Model S. Nonetheless, a combination of water followed by dry chemical extinguisher quickly brought the fire to an end.
It is important to note that the fire in the battery was contained to a small section near the front by the internal firewalls built into the pack structure. At no point did fire enter the passenger compartment.
Had a conventional gasoline car encountered the same object on the highway, the result could have been far worse. A typical gasoline car only has a thin metal sheet protecting the underbody, leaving it vulnerable to destruction of the fuel supply lines or fuel tank, which causes a pool of gasoline to form and often burn the entire car to the ground. In contrast, the combustion energy of our battery pack is only about 10% of the energy contained in a gasoline tank and is divided into 16 modules with firewalls in between. As a consequence, the effective combustion potential is only about 1% that of the fuel in a comparable gasoline sedan.
The nationwide driving statistics make this very clear: there are 150,000 car fires per year according to the National Fire Protection Association, and Americans drive about 3 trillion miles per year according to the Department of Transportation. That equates to 1 vehicle fire for every 20 million miles driven, compared to 1 fire in over 100 million miles for Tesla. This means you are 5 times more likely to experience a fire in a conventional gasoline car than a Tesla!
For consumers concerned about fire risk, there should be absolutely zero doubt that it is safer to power a car with a battery than a large tank of highly flammable liquid.
— Elon
Skylane81E
Final Approach
So you mean it isn't a tommy cooker?
Shucks
Shucks
txflyer
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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
meh.
Tesla is so yesterday.
I'll take Fisker Karma
Tesla is so yesterday.
I'll take Fisker Karma
Dav8or
Final Approach
What kind of crap is that??! I thought Texas was supposed to be pro business and all libertarian? What, is there some bizarre car dealership lobby they bow down to? It's a good thing the car appeals to people with money. Maybe they can get this idiot law changed.
Texas is gonna make sure one of theirs is gonna take a slice of the pie.
Dav8or
Final Approach
meh.
Tesla is so yesterday.
I'll take Fisker Karma
Which by the way, also suffered from a fire. In the Fisker's case, it was spontaneous and caused by a design flaw rather than a collision, or road debris. This is a company seriously on the ropes. There are still some unsold, but they're having a lot of trouble selling them.
It should be noted that to my knowledge, there has yet to be anyone injured, even in the slightest, by an electric car fire of any brand.
JimNtexas
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Jim - In Texas!
Because Fiskers have literally exploded in large numbers as well as causing a number of hourse fires, I don't think you can buy a Fisker any more.
Maxmosbey
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I need to get serious.
I love you. I bought shares quite a while ago and it has been very good to me. I hope to some day make enough money with Tesla to buy a Tesla. Please buy two for yourself and one for your significant other.I'm thinking of buying two of them!
AcroGimp
Cleared for Takeoff
How many of my tax dollars have been wasted, I mean, invested in these companies/technologies? I lost count somewhere after $300-400 million....and the bankruptcies....and the fire sale purchases by the ChiComms....
I am all for PRIVATE SECTOR innovation, and when the PRIVATE SECTOR makes an electric vehicle that can do all the things my 300hp hot rod PRIVATE SECTOR Jeep Grand Cherokee can do, I might consider buying one, but the actual economic record and actual big-picture environmental impact is now 30 years developed, and it simply isn't very impressive.
'Gimp
I am all for PRIVATE SECTOR innovation, and when the PRIVATE SECTOR makes an electric vehicle that can do all the things my 300hp hot rod PRIVATE SECTOR Jeep Grand Cherokee can do, I might consider buying one, but the actual economic record and actual big-picture environmental impact is now 30 years developed, and it simply isn't very impressive.
'Gimp
Skylane81E
Final Approach
I'll agree with that gripe, but won't blame the companies for taking a piece of the pie, I know I wouldn't want to put my self at a competitive disadvantage like that.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
I just sat through a class where they talked about lithium-ion batteries in the context of iPads in airplanes. They said in the case of fire to submerge it in water or get it into a (very expensive) fireproof bag. I was thinking that might work in a bigger airplane where you have a supply of water and an ice tray but not so much in smaller airplanes.
ron22
Cleared for Takeoff
Yea it is not like Chevy or Dodge recently got any money from the government.
Skylane81E
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Everskyward
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Everskyward
At least you have a window that opens that far!
gprellwitz
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Skylane81E
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At least you have a window that opens that far!
Another win for the mighty Skylane
ggroves
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Titanium
Because some have a vested interest in working for/supplying the traditional auto companies, or oil companies.
Because some neo-cons believe Ecars are some nefarious taxpayer-screwing scheme by the govt.
Go figure....
I agree with your skepticism, maybe you should ask the Tesla CEO Elon Musk that allegedly claimed the proper procedure is to use water Tesla's lithium battery fires.
I agreed with the firefighters, that claimed the lithium fire intensified when they initially tried to use water. Allegedly the CEO of Tesla sent out an e-mail blaming the firefighters. Allegedly Tesla CEO Elon Musk claimed that firefighters should have used water.
From an alleged e-mail from the Tesla CEO Elon Musk:
http://evworld.com/blogs.cfm?authorid=12&blogid=1171
When firefighters used water like Tesla CEO Elon Musk allegedly suggested, the fire intensified.
When firefighters went against the alleged advice of Tesla CEO Elon Musk, to cut a hole in the firewall so they could deluge the battery with water, they successfully put out the fire.
It gives me the impression that the Tesla CEO Elon Musk is an idiot and a fraud trying to scapegoat emergency responders.
I get the impression that the Tesla model S. should be recalled to put in access points that emergency responders could quickly and easily deluge a battery fire.
I'd be tempted to say for the safety of firefighters, that they should have just let the Tesla burn out. But by trying to fight the fire, they learned several valuable lessons. Science seems to be correct, the Tesla CEO seems to be wrong. Someday there's liable to be a Tesla fire with an occupant trapped in the Tesla or in the proximity of the Tesla, that letting a Tesla burn to the ground would not be a humane option. That's why I think the designs should include knockout plugs, or access panels or something of that nature to let firefighters have the option to deluge the battery in case of emergency.
Electric cars with new battery technology is liable to increase the costs to taxpayers. Emergency responders will likely have to have special equipment, special training and change/adapt some of their procedures. New automotive battery technology is making it more complex, expensive and dangerous for emergency responders.
Emergency responders may have to carry copper powder and more dry chemical extinguishers.
Lithium isn't the only thing that's burning in a car fire. Fire spreads.
Like I said before, you ought to ask your local firefighters. I'm not an expert at fighting fire. There is a lot they probably don't know either, since it's so uncommon not many may have personally encountered it yet.
Trying to fight a lithium fire with water is probably a lot like trying to fight a liquid petroleum fire with water. Most ways tend to make things worse when trying to use water on a liquid petroleum fire. However there are some cases where it is possible to fight fire with water. Mist is often used to cool fires. A deluge will often put out liquid petroleum fires.
I suspect a deluge of water will put out some lithium battery fires, but there may be the risk that it might reignite or explode.
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I think installing a automated copper powder extinguisher to inundate the closed battery compartment would be the better option.
AcroGimp
Cleared for Takeoff
2002 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited (7-8 years BEFORE the bailout, which I opposed) and I buy aftermarket parts, FWIW.
'Gimp
Actuall, 2002 was a couple decades after Carter bailed them out and awarded them the M1-A1 contract as well which was not IIRC the one the Army favored at the time.
ron22
Cleared for Takeoff
Chrysler was bailed out in 1979 also
So government help is nothing new to the auto makers.
AcroGimp
Cleared for Takeoff
The Chrysler package in '80 was something like $2B, in loan guarantees only (no direct funding) - loans were repaid, by Chrysler itself, government did not actually step in with any guarantees, no cost to taxpayers.
The recent Chrysler bailout was $12-13B, and we lost between $1.5 and 2B as I recall - worse for GM.
R&D/Development Investment tax deductions, whether spent on new products, services or on oil exploration/drilling are not subsidies, again, no direct payment from government, no direct cost to taxpayers.
Essentially, apples and oranges.
Fact remains that electric cars are still not commercially viable, 3+ decades and hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars later - and those are real subsidies, with real losses to you, me and Joe and Jill Sixpack.
'Gimp
The recent Chrysler bailout was $12-13B, and we lost between $1.5 and 2B as I recall - worse for GM.
R&D/Development Investment tax deductions, whether spent on new products, services or on oil exploration/drilling are not subsidies, again, no direct payment from government, no direct cost to taxpayers.
Essentially, apples and oranges.
Fact remains that electric cars are still not commercially viable, 3+ decades and hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars later - and those are real subsidies, with real losses to you, me and Joe and Jill Sixpack.
'Gimp
el con
Line Up and Wait
Don't think we fear the car just that they will go the route of the solar panel companies.
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The loans were guaranteed and payed back because they were awarded the M1-A1 tank contract, and in 1979 dollars $2BB went a lot further than in 2008.
The reason electric cars are a loss is because people who actually could use them at great advantage don't buy them because they won't go 300 miles on a charge. The answer is to replace the batteries with a fuel cell, but we don't have that infrastructure either. Yo can create a battery swap infrastructure once industry sees people buying the vehicles to make it viable. Look at what happened when VCRs became common household items, or DVD players. Now you don't even have to go to the video store, there's a vending machine at the supermarket.
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douglas393
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douglas
And if Chevy could offer a car with the similar performance of a Corvette for $25-30k I bet the sales of most of the competitors of the Corvette would be cut in half as well.:wink2:
AcroGimp
Cleared for Takeoff
M1 program was underway, and Chrysler's innovative design had already won prior to the issues that resulted in the bailout of Chrysler Auto, and it was Iacocca's introduction of several innovative new vehicles (K car and Minivan) as well as significant cost-cutting that led to their ability to repay the loans (which again were PRIVATE SECTOR loans), 7 years ahead of schedule at no cost to taxpayers.
Chrysler Defense sold the M1 design to GM's defense arm in ~'82 or 83.
'Gimp
Chrysler Defense sold the M1 design to GM's defense arm in ~'82 or 83.
'Gimp
I don't know if it's better or if it is practical but it certainly is a great idea.
Knockout plugs or some other type of access points would probably be cheap and have some advantages and probably would be effective in many cases.
I was also thinking that they self activating barrier might be possible. Or possibly an inert gas copper powder dry extinguisher built into the car that can be activated manually or possibly automatically to deluge the area surrounding the battery.
A copper powder system would probably take a fair amount of research and development and might not pan out. But it might have the advantage that it possibly could be designed act automatically.
Why put in knock out plugs allowing the fire to vent? Why not just blast the box with water and keep it cool until the fire runs out of fuel?
As for an automated system, no different than the engine room of every boat, or their paint locker for that matter.
comanchepilot
En-Route
the rich guy driving that $100k car just needed to light his cigar and well . . . that cigar lighter used just a little too much power . . .
comanchepilot
En-Route
Henning, a copper powder suppression system? People will steal the car to steal the fire suppression system . . . why not use gold?