Tesla, the absolute best car!

[Johann]

Everyone who buys gasoline has the priced subsidized by at least $0.50/gal based on military expenditures used to secure that oil resource. That doesn't include various tax breaks the oil production companies use.

While I don't agree with CTLSi, that's a bit of a stretch.

Even if you don't drive, you benefit from gas. Some public transportation runs on it, or trucks.
And even if you don't benefit AT ALL, if we start tracing how taxes get spent and have to subsidize (reimburse) people that don't benefit from certain sectors, well, we can point fingers in every direction.

I don't think the reason it's subsidized is because they need to return the taxes you paid and got used for military to protect oil interests.

You could also go the other way and say that since electric car owners don't buy gas, they are not paying the gas tax but are using the roads supposedly (at least partially) funded by that tax.

I would love to own a Tesla though, don't get me wrong, they are really nice cars.

 

[N747JB]

Don't we pay a pretty hefty tax on gasoline? I don't want to quote the number, but I bet it's close to your $0.50/gal. Plus they state/federal take on the off shore drilling leases, which according to a friend of mine is nearly 50% of the value of the oil his company pumps.
I am not against the electric vehicles, I think in some cases they make sense, I am not wild about the subsidies, even though my customers get them on the electrics that we sell.

Everyone who buys gasoline has the priced subsidized by at least $0.50/gal based on military expenditures used to secure that oil resource. That doesn't include various tax breaks the oil production companies use.

 

[Henning]

And to complete the record, each Tesla sold awards the buyer with a fat taxpayer subsidy. Like those who can afford a Tesla need a tax break, right? It's whats known was rich guy welfare.

You get the same subsidy if you buy the <$20k Mitsubishi MiEV. The subsidy goes to every electric car buyer. Heck, the govt should just give away cheap EVs. You could give one to every commuter and end our need to fight trillion dollar wars for oil. We can produce the electricity and the rest of the demand domestically. We'd be money ahead.

There are great savings to be had by getting away from oil. Big public savings.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Don't we pay a pretty hefty tax on gasoline?

We pay a relative pittance of a tax on fuels, which is part of the reason our roadway infrastructure is in terrible condition in most areas.

I calculated that $0.50/gal number last year using some reasonable assumptions from independent/credible sources. You could probably come up with a different number than that, but it would be pretty close.

I don't disagree that EV users should be paying some form of roadway tax equivalent to the fuel tax/gallon. Probably best done as a surcharge on their vehicle registration costs. In California, the total fuel tax per gallon is around $0.40 (federal+state), so it should probably be assumed that an equivalent weight non-electric vehicle would average around 30 mpg, average EV driver is probably around 10,000 miles/year (maybe higher), so tack on another $130/year or so to their registration cost. In CA that is offset because hybrids and EVs pay little/no smog fee.

Jeff

 

[CTLSi]

Don't we pay a pretty hefty tax on gasoline? I don't want to quote the number, but I bet it's close to your $0.50/gal. Plus they state/federal take on the off shore drilling leases, which according to a friend of mine is nearly 50% of the value of the oil his company pumps.
I am not against the electric vehicles, I think in some cases they make sense, I am not wild about the subsidies, even though my customers get them on the electrics that we sell.

Did I also mention that some get a kickback on their utility bill too? Of course ya gotta be below a poverty line to get it, likely won't own a Tesla, but hey, maybe steal electricity from the back forty tennant you slum lord over?

 

[EppyGA]

We pay a relative pittance of a tax on fuels, which is part of the reason our roadway infrastructure is in terrible condition in most areas.

I calculated that $0.50/gal number last year using some reasonable assumptions from independent/credible sources. You could probably come up with a different number than that, but it would be pretty close.

I don't disagree that EV users should be paying some form of roadway tax equivalent to the fuel tax/gallon. Probably best done as a surcharge on their vehicle registration costs. In California, the total fuel tax per gallon is around $0.40 (federal+state), so it should probably be assumed that an equivalent weight non-electric vehicle would average around 30 mpg, average EV driver is probably around 10,000 miles/year (maybe higher), so tack on another $130/year or so to their registration cost. In CA that is offset because hybrids and EVs pay little/no smog fee.

Jeff

California is over $0.70 per gallon in taxes and going to go up next year due to a "climate change" tax.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

California is over $0.70 per gallon in taxes and going to go up next year due to a "climate change" tax.

That increase will be about 5%, which is in the noise range for as volatile as fuel prices have been the last few years out here.

 

[EppyGA]

That increase will be about 5%, which is in the noise range for as volatile as fuel prices have been the last few years out here.

So you don't deny the current $0.70 even though you stated $0.40 in your post?

 

[Jeff Oslick]

So you don't deny the current $0.70 even though you stated $0.40 in your post?

There is conflicting info floating around out there on the tax rate in CA, depending on where you look. Gasbuddy said the ~$0.40 number. That sounded low to me, so I thought it left out the sales tax component, but they've been monkeying around with how the sales tax is calculated on fuel, and this is the current formula:
http://www.boe.ca.gov/news/2014/l380.pdf
which works out to a total CA-portion of $.425/gal.
Federal is $0.184 (talk of raising that too...)

Total is $.609, not $.70.

Either way, this has nothing to do with the "hidden" subsidy petro-fuels enjoy thanks to the US Military.

 

[Henning]

There is conflicting info floating around out there on the tax rate in CA, depending on where you look. Gasbuddy said the ~$0.40 number. That sounded low to me, so I thought it left out the sales tax component, but they've been monkeying around with how the sales tax is calculated on fuel, and this is the current formula:
http://www.boe.ca.gov/news/2014/l380.pdf
which works out to a total CA-portion of $.425/gal.
Federal is $0.184 (talk of raising that too...)

Total is $.609, not $.70.

Either way, this has nothing to do with the "hidden" subsidy petro-fuels enjoy thanks to the US Military.

Yep, US Navy is the worlds largest consumer of oil. They have also put out the worlds largest contracts for Algae Oil, Branson has large ones out as well for the Virgin fleets.

 

[denverpilot]

Everyone who buys gasoline has the priced subsidized by at least $0.50/gal based on military expenditures used to secure that oil resource. That doesn't include various tax breaks the oil production companies use.

That's a stretch. Especially considering many of us use final product from refineries that can't even be fed cost-effectively with foreign crude. At all. Maybe yours.

Feel free to check with a local oil industry person. It's only possible to feed my local refinery domestically the last time I saw a pipeline map for around here. We're exporting natural gas to Texas. The new pipeline went down my county road in front of the neighborhood.

 

[N747JB]

I'm not real sure what you're talking about? Last I checked I didn't have any rental property, much less slums, but maybe you are talking to someone else and quoted my post by mistake.

Did I also mention that some get a kickback on their utility bill too? Of course ya gotta be below a poverty line to get it, likely won't own a Tesla, but hey, maybe steal electricity from the back forty tennant you slum lord over?

 

[mrindian]

When people bash the electric cars. You need to drive one first.
I own a volt. I can't afford a tesla. It's a great car with the best of both worlds. I have batteries that get up to 50 miles on a charge and a gas engine for when I need to go farther. If your commute is 40 miles one way and you can charge at work, you are fully on electricity. If only one way you will burn 1gal for the ride home. So 80mpg plus the elect,
My batteries cost $1 each evening to completely recharge starting at midnight on my super off peak rates.

I've owned the car for 28 months driven 34,000 miles on 194 gallons of gas. Heck my Dc3 burns that much fuel in less than two hours so this is a great car! Also I've saved $ on oil changes. I've only needed one and the oil still looked new but it was 24 months old and time for a change.

Also the design was started before Obama so blame Bush if you don't like it. But I love mine,

Facts don't lie. When I bought the car I started the "B" odometer at 0 so I could see my lifetime fuel usage.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[CTLSi]

When people bash the electric cars. You need to drive one first.
I own a volt. I can't afford a tesla. It's a great car with the best of both worlds. I have batteries that get up to 50 miles on a charge and a gas engine for when I need to go farther. If your commute is 40 miles one way and you can charge at work, you are fully on electricity. If only one way you will burn 1gal for the ride home. So 80mpg plus the elect,
My batteries cost $1 each evening to completely recharge starting at midnight on my super off peak rates.

I've owned the car for 28 months driven 34,000 miles on 194 gallons of gas. Heck my Dc3 burns that much fuel in less than two hours so this is a great car! Also I've saved $ on oil changes. I've only needed one and the oil still looked new but it was 24 months old and time for a change.

Also the design was started before Obama so blame Bush if you don't like it. But I love mine,

Facts don't lie. When I bought the car I started the "B" odometer at 0 so I could see my lifetime fuel usage.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

A Volt? Laughing out loud. You just bought the biggest lemon in car history, even worse than the Edsel or the Corvair. GM is pulling it out of Europe. Next year in the USA too.

 

[mrindian]

A Volt? Laughing out loud. You just bought the biggest lemon in car history, even worse than the Edsel or the Corvair. GM is pulling it out of Europe. Next year in the USA too.

Where exactly do you get your information. All automakers will be introducing electric cars. It's the wave of the future.
It is such an amazing feeling to be driving on the interstate at 70 mph with no noise, no engine vibrations.

The volt platform will be introduced into a Cadillac model and they are introducing volt 2.0

So get your facts straight before bashing. Volt owners have the highest satisfaction ratings, and there is a reason. It's a remarkable car.

Here is an article to disprove you assumption
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/08/us-autos-gm-volt-idUSBREA371XW20140408

Ps I didn't buy it. I leased it because it's new tech, and I wanted an insurance policy.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[CTLSi]

The Volt has about 10 real customers. States like CA bought a them as did the Obama admin to place at embassies around the world instead of protecting the embassies with security, remember Obama's excuse why he didn't protect the ambassador in Benghazi?

Volt sales without blue states and Obama buying them would be near zero. And that's with the giant kickback subsidy taxpayers foot on the junk.

The Volt Is Dead in Europe | The Weekly Standard

Real Production Costs of Chevy Volt Nearly $90,000

2013 Chevrolet Volt - Not Quite Electrifying - Forbes

General Motors Loses Nearly $50,000 Every Time It Sells A Volt

The very expensive death of the Chevy Volt

GM Recalls Touch Nearly Every Vehicle Model

 

[Dav8or]

Where exactly do you get your information. All automakers will be introducing electric cars. It's the wave of the future.
It is such an amazing feeling to be driving on the interstate at 70 mph with no noise, no engine vibrations.

The volt platform will be introduced into a Cadillac model and they are introducing volt 2.0

So get your facts straight before bashing. Volt owners have the highest satisfaction ratings, and there is a reason. It's a remarkable car.

Here is an article to disprove you assumption
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/08/us-autos-gm-volt-idUSBREA371XW20140408

Ps I didn't buy it. I leased it because it's new tech, and I wanted an insurance policy.



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Ignore him. He's one of the forum's crazy uncles. Kind of like familiar background noise around here. Spews a lot of right wing internet blah, blah, blah. Don't take it too seriously.

IMO, you bought (I guess leased) a really nice piece of technology. I have not driven one yet, but all I hear is how well the car actually works. Your above posted results from real life ownership are not at all unusual and in fact pretty average for the type. I'm really interested in what the second gen will be like.

I used to be a huge fan of the Volt when it was in development and was really active on GM-Volt.com back in those days. I got invited to NYC for the auto show where the concept Volt was for the first Volt Nation meeting where we got to meet GM executives like Bob Lutz and many of the Volt design team. It was really fun.

Here's Bob at the event-

Here is the car I was super interested in, but sadly became more Prius like...

 

[comanchepilot]

Wife has a 75 mi RT daily commute on the 210.

We leased a Volt at a very competitive price, pocketed a Calif $1500 rebate - the only reason we have the car is car pool lane access. Not for the green cred, not for anythong other than carpool lane access. Her car allowance covers the lease payment, the insurance, all operating costs and the taxes on the above. Plus, they give her an extra $50 a month in car allowance for driving a PZEV.

We are now in the last year of the lease. Ally Bank is not negotiating with people over the residual value of their vehicles at lease termination. Instead of, say, getting $17k and more financing business from their customers at lease term, they are wholesaling the cars for $14-15k, thusly losing another $10k on the cars at lease termination. Its insane what Ally Bank doing . . . .

Anyway, almost every single totally all electric vehicle is either a) butt ugly or b) a pos with insufficient range to be an effective commuter car.

Leaf? ugly.
Spark? Ugly
Prius? Double ugly.
Ford? ugh. I can't buy a car cutesy named 'Energi' . . .
Mitsubishi? Also ugly. Did you see how ugly?
Fiat - what? 40 miles before empty? Which ends up being 28-30 in real world.

So for all electric we get left with:
Toyota Rav4 - ok - decent - but they cheapened the interior - 100 miles
Tesla - nice looking car. $65-70k for the 60wh version
Porsche - you think the Tesla is pricey?
Benz - see Porsche
BMW - not yet
VW- not yet.

The good looking vehicles are damn expensive. . . THAT is the problem - that and range.

Look - lets take the 60wh Tesla S. 244 max range. But wait - for maximum battery life you need to limit the charge to 80% - so now we are down to 200 miles.

That 200 miles is a hard limit. Run out of juice and you stop. Found On Road Dead. Take that 200 and reduce it by 20% for temps under 40F. Now in cold weather you have a 160 mile car.

So most folks will in practice only got 150-180 miles on a warm day and 125-140 on a cold one. Works for me in practice for a commute and if you need to drive to one meeting, maybe two. Maybe.

But now lets look at the charging. with a single charger and a J1772 [the standard plug and a 240v line with a 50amp breaker] you get 29 miles of charge per hour. So - charge your car from 12a - 6a [the time when you get the cheapest rates] and you get 174 miles - ok for again, the daily drive, but its not a salesman's car. It would work for my wife and her 75 mile drive but it would need to be charged daily. Tesla is falsely advertising its 244 mile range since if you do that every day they'll get annoyed if the battery goes bad . . .

What else is out there? Nothing.

The only truly practical vehicle really is the Volt, Still has a gas engine for when you run out of a charge. The ideal Volt would be 100 miles of range, charge in 5 hours, back up engine still present - but would work for literally 95% of commutes. . . .

 

[Dav8or]

BMW - not yet

Actually, the BMW is now available and I have seen them on the road. The same $40,000+ price, the same 100 mile range and the same geek mobile styling as all the rest. I guess you do get to tell your friends you drive a "Bimmer"

Tesla is falsely advertising its 244 mile range since if you do that every day they'll get annoyed if the battery goes bad . . .

On the Tesla website, they do only claim 208 miles on the 60kw model. If you want to go further, you have to pay more.

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/design

 

[Palmpilot]

On the Tesla website, they do only claim 208 miles on the 60kw model. If you want to go further, you have to pay more.

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/design

According to that Web page, it's a 60 kwh model. In order for it to put out 60 kw, you would have to drive 208 miles per hour, but the car's top speed is shown as 120.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

That's a stretch. Especially considering many of us use final product from refineries that can't even be fed cost-effectively with foreign crude. At all. Maybe yours.

Feel free to check with a local oil industry person. It's only possible to feed my local refinery domestically the last time I saw a pipeline map for around here. We're exporting natural gas to Texas. The new pipeline went down my county road in front of the neighborhood.

The price of oil is based on international markets, not whether it is foreign or domestic.

 

[schmookeeg]

I am posting this on my kerosene-powered laptop because I love eagles.

 

[denverpilot]

The price of oil is based on international markets, not whether it is foreign or domestic.

I'll let the traders know. LOL! They'll get a chuckle out of that.

Watch the price of oil near a refinery that shuts down a unit outside of a normal schedule for unplanned maintenance sometime.

Nice try. If there's no place to put it, the price falls. Not to mention penalties in contracts that aren't even reflected in the spot price.

:rollseyes: