Tesla Model 3 - Now I get the hype.

[SoonerAviator]

No, it doesn't. The Model 3 design is a lot more usable than the Model S. See my post:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...now-i-get-the-hype.114912/page-3#post-2631614

It doesn't just need an inch or two extra to be usable. It needs the better part of a foot, and the Model 3 has that.

You aren't getting my point. I'm talking about designing it so that it's position is still functionally in the same position, but integrated into the center console. It wouldn't have been hard to design, they just chose not to. See concepts below for a similar idea. I understand that the Model 3 doesn't have a driver's display behind the steering wheel, but the idea is the same. You can design is so that it doesn't look like an afterthought while still maintaining the ergonomics of the current position.

 

[deonb]

You aren't getting my point. I'm talking about designing it so that it's position is still functionally in the same position, but integrated into the center console. It wouldn't have been hard to design, they just chose not to. See concepts below for a similar idea. I understand that the Model 3 doesn't have a driver's display behind the steering wheel, but the idea is the same. You can design is so that it doesn't look like an afterthought while still maintaining the ergonomics of the current position.

I get your point and I agree it would be nice if a display can be integrated into the dash while still being within reach and still giving you the storage space below it, but I don't think the two examples above nails it.

I've never sat in an iPace, but this is the first Video I found on using the iPace display...

see 41 seconds in - you can see the driver leans forward and back to use the display. And that's with a fairly small display - if the display was the size of the Model 3 or S display it would be much more pronounced when trying to touch the top-right areas of the screen.


The Avista concept car is cool looking, but I think entering navigation instructions on a console display that you have to look down at would be fairly dangerous, if not out-right illegal. If this was a level 5 autonomous vehicle, sure. But on level 5 autonomy you have plenty of other design options opening up since you don't need a steering wheel.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I get your point and I agree it would be nice if a display can be integrated into the dash while still being within reach and still giving you the storage space below it, but I don't think the two examples above nails it . . . but I think entering navigation instructions on a console display that you have to look down at would be fairly dangerous, if not out-right illegal. If this was a level 5 autonomous vehicle, sure. But on level 5 autonomy you have plenty of other design options opening up since you don't need a steering wheel.

I agree that those designs don't nail it, but they show that a touch screen can be integrated cleanly into the center of the dash without looking clumsy. If the position is extended slightly further towards the driver, it solves the "leaning forward" problem. The primary difficulty with positioning something to always be within reach of the driver without leaning forward is that it's very dependent on individual arm spans and seating positions. Things like BMW's iDrive and touchpads/scroll wheels/voice command can be used to combat that problem.

I don't think there's anything illegal about navigation being out of direct sight, since it's not illegal to use your cell phone to provide navigation currently. A heads-up display would be the best solution for the Tesla (or any other vehicle) anyway. Basic information provided at sight level at all times (and depicted in the Buick concept above). I love the HUD in my GXP and it works well.

The last part I'll mention about the giant display is that I abhor a bunch of light pollution in the cabin at night. I turn the instrument backlight down to the minimum on every vehicle I own when driving at night, and in some vehicles even the minimum isn't low enough. Many Model 3 owners have complained about not being able to get the screen as dark as they prefer (even though it does invert colors for night mode), and you can't turn off the giant display because it's the only source of speed/vehicle info. In my GXP, I can hit a button and every dash light goes dark and the only thing visible is the HUD and the high-beam indicator. I'm just not sold on having everything go through a touch panel with no tactile buttons (applies to any car, not just Tesla), as it just adds more steps to perform a function instead of a one-touch button.

 

[SCCutler]

It is a negative. How much depends on your opinion. If this is the one single thing that stops you from buying a Tesla, my advice would be to buy the car and get a rental twice a year when the 30 minute stop is unacceptable. It is a great car.

'Zackly!

No car answers all questions. This one is looking better all the time.

So why not redesign the dash so the the center portion extends toward the driver another two inches? That brings the screen closer and still allows the screen to sit flush? I just think it looks like out of place from an automotive interior-design standpoint. They used that concept in the Model S and it appears to work well . . .

My guess is, they're accommodating left-hand and right-hand drive with less diversity of hardware, and greater production efficiency.

If Kent says it works really intuitively, I tend to believe him, because he's a credible and well-experienced witness of driving (and flying) ergonomics. And, because... he's Kent, and that carries some weight with me as well.

I may never own a Tesla - but I sure as hell would not rule it out, either. TBH, for the driving I do, it would work very well, except the financial aspect, which might never pencil out. But I am a pilot, and an aircraft owner, which together pretty much rule-out financial sanity anyway.

For me, the greatest appeal is this: it appearing that Tesla (and other manufacturers, as well, of course) have developed the electric drivetrains to high state of usefulness, it is not hard to understand that the electric vehicles are likely to have much greater (long term) reliability and durability, simply because of the relative simplicity of the mechanical components, and the absence of vibration. For the mission that 90%+ of drivers exercise each day (completely made-up percentage, I have not a clue whether I'm right), an EV will work great.

For the life of me, I can't understand why GM decided to make their EVs funky-looking; a Cadillac sporty sedan (an ATS-sized car) with an electric drivetrain could, well-marketed, do very well. I'm looking at you, too, BMW.

Man, this post got long... almost Nate-long. Guess I'd better throw in a...

...Heh!

 

[FastEddieB]

For the life of me, I can't understand why GM decided to make their EVs funky-looking...

Honda is taking some grief for the design of the Clarity, especially the rear quarter half-baked “fender skirts”.

 

[SoonerAviator]

'Zackly!

No car answers all questions. This one is looking better all the time.



My guess is, they're accommodating left-hand and right-hand drive with less diversity of hardware, and greater production efficiency.

If Kent says it works really intuitively, I tend to believe him, because he's a credible and well-experienced witness of driving (and flying) ergonomics. And, because... he's Kent, and that carries some weight with me as well.

I may never own a Tesla - but I sure as hell would not rule it out, either. TBH, for the driving I do, it would work very well, except the financial aspect, which might never pencil out. But I am a pilot, and an aircraft owner, which together pretty much rule-out financial sanity anyway.

For me, the greatest appeal is this: it appearing that Tesla (and other manufacturers, as well, of course) have developed the electric drivetrains to high state of usefulness, it is not hard to understand that the electric vehicles are likely to have much greater (long term) reliability and durability, simply because of the relative simplicity of the mechanical components, and the absence of vibration. For the mission that 90%+ of drivers exercise each day (completely made-up percentage, I have not a clue whether I'm right), an EV will work great.

For the life of me, I can't understand why GM decided to make their EVs funky-looking; a Cadillac sporty sedan (an ATS-sized car) with an electric drivetrain could, well-marketed, do very well. I'm looking at you, too, BMW.

Man, this post got long... almost Nate-long. Guess I'd better throw in a...

...Heh!

Agreed. There’s a decent possibility that my next “car” purchase will be an EV or hybrid, but that’s probably 5-7yrs away. It won’t replace my truck or a full size suv needed for towing or long XC trips, but as a second vehicle for the daily commute, it would work fine. For the life of me I don’t know why every automaker, be it Honda, Toyota, Nissan, GM, etc has been intent on strapping the ugliest exteriors to their EVs and PHEVs. If they had just thrown the EV powertrain into an existing vehicle, they’d probably have sold a lot more. I don’t think the Model X/3 are particularly attractive, but they’re not hideous. The Model S is sharp though.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Velocity173]

'Zackly!

No car answers all questions. This one is looking better all the time.



My guess is, they're accommodating left-hand and right-hand drive with less diversity of hardware, and greater production efficiency.

If Kent says it works really intuitively, I tend to believe him, because he's a credible and well-experienced witness of driving (and flying) ergonomics. And, because... he's Kent, and that carries some weight with me as well.

I may never own a Tesla - but I sure as hell would not rule it out, either. TBH, for the driving I do, it would work very well, except the financial aspect, which might never pencil out. But I am a pilot, and an aircraft owner, which together pretty much rule-out financial sanity anyway.

For me, the greatest appeal is this: it appearing that Tesla (and other manufacturers, as well, of course) have developed the electric drivetrains to high state of usefulness, it is not hard to understand that the electric vehicles are likely to have much greater (long term) reliability and durability, simply because of the relative simplicity of the mechanical components, and the absence of vibration. For the mission that 90%+ of drivers exercise each day (completely made-up percentage, I have not a clue whether I'm right), an EV will work great.

For the life of me, I can't understand why GM decided to make their EVs funky-looking; a Cadillac sporty sedan (an ATS-sized car) with an electric drivetrain could, well-marketed, do very well. I'm looking at you, too, BMW.

Man, this post got long... almost Nate-long. Guess I'd better throw in a...

...Heh!

While a plug in hybrid and not a full up EV, I thought Cadillac did an excellent job designing the ELR. Cost is what kept consumers away.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

While a plug in hybrid and not a full up EV, I thought Cadillac did an excellent job designing the ELR. Cost is what kept consumers away.

View attachment 69174

Agreed. Way overpriced but far more attractive than its Volt Doppelganger.

Tesla interiors have always struck me as cold and sterile. And the BMW i3....my neighbor just bought one. It's the range-extender version, not sure what trim level, but the door panel material reminded me of those cardboard egg cartons. I know they pride themselves on using recyclable/recycled materials here, but it comes off as pretty low-rent.

Now here's a proper interior! (Full disclosure...just got an ND Miata, with 6-speed manual of course...so there may be bias!)

 

[Velocity173]

Agreed. Way overpriced but far more attractive than its Volt Doppelganger.

Tesla interiors have always struck me as cold and sterile. And the BMW i3....my neighbor just bought one. It's the range-extender version, not sure what trim level, but the door panel material reminded me of those cardboard egg cartons. I know they pride themselves on using recyclable/recycled materials here, but it comes off as pretty low-rent.

Now here's a proper interior! (Full disclosure...just got an ND Miata, with 6-speed manual of course...so there may be bias!)

View attachment 69200

I like the MX-5 RF. 2019 with 181 hp would be a blast to drive. Just a bit outside my price range though,

 

[Bill]

Now here's a proper interior! (Full disclosure...just got an ND Miata, with 6-speed manual of course...so there may be bias!)

What are your impressions so far? We will be car shopping in a month or so, and want something new, affordable, and fun with a manual transmission. The Miata and Civic Si are at the top of the list right now.

 

[Ken Ibold]

What are your impressions so far? We will be car shopping in a month or so, and want something new, affordable, and fun with a manual transmission. The Miata and Civic Si are at the top of the list right now.

You need my Boxster, Bill!

OK, so it ain't new. But it IS affordable and fun. And it's for sale as of yesterday!

 

[Bill]

You need my Boxster, Bill!

OK, so it ain't new. But it IS affordable and fun. And it's for sale as of yesterday!

986? 987? PM me the details!

 

[jsstevens]

What are your impressions so far? We will be car shopping in a month or so, and want something new, affordable, and fun with a manual transmission. The Miata and Civic Si are at the top of the list right now.

I drove both models of the 2018 Miata. I like the lines a noise level of the hard top but the roof was constantly brushing the top of my head. The soft top was tight but I fit. They are very light and feel very nimble and toss-able. Don't pack much more than a toothbrush and change of socks (it's not quite that bad but close!)

I also drove the 2017 Nissan 370Z soft top and stick, which I bought. Heavier and more substantial feel, quicker by far and still very nimble. Unfortunately you can't get that combo in 2018.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I agree that those designs don't nail it, but they show that a touch screen can be integrated cleanly into the center of the dash without looking clumsy. If the position is extended slightly further towards the driver, it solves the "leaning forward" problem.

I don't think you have a full understanding of where the display is on the 3. I really didn't until I sat in it. Trust me, trying to integrate it into the dash a la the Jaguar (which does look very nice, but is not good in its placement) would make for a really gigantic, clunky-looking dash.

The last part I'll mention about the giant display is that I abhor a bunch of light pollution in the cabin at night.

As do I... And I didn't even think of it until you mentioned it, which tells me that Tesla at least did OK with it. If there are really some complaints out there then clearly there is room for improvement, but that's something they can fix very easily with a software update.

If Kent says it works really intuitively, I tend to believe him, because he's a credible and well-experienced witness of driving (and flying) ergonomics. And, because... he's Kent, and that carries some weight with me as well.

Thanks! I do appreciate a good user experience, and I try to design good UIs in my work. This stuff does matter, a lot more than a lot of companies give it credit for. Companies that "get it" tend to do really well.

I may never own a Tesla - but I sure as hell would not rule it out, either. TBH, for the driving I do, it would work very well, except the financial aspect, which might never pencil out. But I am a pilot, and an aircraft owner, which together pretty much rule-out financial sanity anyway.

If I didn't have an airplane to pay for, I'd probably be on my second Tesla by now!

For me, the greatest appeal is this: it appearing that Tesla (and other manufacturers, as well, of course) have developed the electric drivetrains to high state of usefulness, it is not hard to understand that the electric vehicles are likely to have much greater (long term) reliability and durability, simply because of the relative simplicity of the mechanical components, and the absence of vibration.

That's an excellent point. We do things like dynamic prop balancing in our airplanes because it tends to pay off in terms of reduced maintenance elsewhere. I've always been interested in vibration-induced wear, and as much of an EV geek as I am, I didn't even think of this until now.

For the life of me, I can't understand why GM decided to make their EVs funky-looking; a Cadillac sporty sedan (an ATS-sized car) with an electric drivetrain could, well-marketed, do very well. I'm looking at you, too, BMW.

And Nissan, and darn near everyone else, except Tesla and Ford... And since Ford electrified cars that were designed with gas powertrains, there are other compromises involved.

But, it's no secret why the EVs built by traditional car companies are fugly: They don't actually want to sell them. They've been fighting CARB on this for 20+ years now, and this was another technique to say "See, we made the vehicles electric like you wanted, but nobody wants them! You can't make us sell them!" and then Tesla came along and wrecked that strategy.

Agreed. Way overpriced but far more attractive than its Volt Doppelganger.

Meh... The ELR and the Volt look pretty similar to me. Big rear end, oversized grill, etc... Kinda ugly IMO. (And I own one.)

And the BMW i3....my neighbor just bought one. It's the range-extender version, not sure what trim level, but the door panel material reminded me of those cardboard egg cartons. I know they pride themselves on using recyclable/recycled materials here, but it comes off as pretty low-rent.

It's actually carbon fiber - The opposite of low rent! Their engineering strategy with the i3 was to make the car as light as possible, since batteries are heavy. They used a LOT of carbon fiber to do so.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

It's actually carbon fiber - The opposite of low rent! Their engineering strategy with the i3 was to make the car as light as possible, since batteries are heavy. They used a LOT of carbon fiber to do so.

What I saw definitely wasn't carbon fiber. Might have been carbon fiber substructure with a thin layer of cardboard egg carton applied.

Loving the ND Miata. I've owned an NA & NC, and most recently had a BMW M240i, which is a brilliant car in a lot of ways. But I realized that my heart belongs to lightweight 2-seaters, so I got a 2016 ND Miata ragtop, 6-sp manual with just under 6000 miles. Soul Red Crystal Metallic...like Candy Apple Red but just a touch darker. Love it!! Drove a '19 RF, but top up it looks a little tall and ungainly, and the 120 lb or so of extra weight takes the edge off acceleration... the extra sprung weight toward the rear does give it slightly better ride quality.

Lighter almost always equates to more fun, and the ND is just 23xx lb., pretty remarkable for a modern car. Soooo engaging and fun to fling into corners! In stock form it rides too high IMO, so immediately swapped in some Progress springs from Good-Win Racing and Bilstein B8s, and had it aligned with -1.2 degrees camber all around. A bit firmer and considerably less body roll, and about 1 inch lower...still a very practical ride height but the appearance is vastly improved. There's something wonderful about cornering in a short wheelbase car with your butt just inches from the rear axle.

A little tighter inside than the NC, but I'm 6'3" and I fit just fine. In the NA, and had to duck down to see traffic lights because the windshield header would block them, but no such problem in the ND. The new engine really has excellent midrange torque, and despite peak power of 155 bhp, there's a lot more area under the torque curve than an NC's and you can feel it. Definitely a little quicker because of it...5.8 to 60 and 14.6 in the quarter are some published numbers. 2019s have something like 28(?) more peak bhp, but the gains are all quite near the engine's higher redline...peak torque is up just 3 lb-ft. Definitely a plus if you're racing/autocrossing or insist in redlining through every shift on the street, but that's not me.

The harmony of controls is really wonderful. Miatas have been the gold standard when it comes to shift feel and the ND continues here. I got the Grand Touring trim level, which has some stuff I don't need/care for (blind spot warning, lane departure), but leather seats, great-looking 17" alloys and really nice metallic interior accents. What's nice is when you defeat the safety nannies (with the exception of traction control), they stay defeated until you press the button to reengage, even when the car is turned on/off.

The other car is a Honda Fit....about 2650 lb and a huge load area for the vehicle's footprint. Fuel tank is beneath the front seats to free up real estate and make for a super low load floor. I bought it partly to take rc planes to the flying field...my 1.5-meter wingspan Maule M7 on floats will fit without disassembly!

 

[GRG55]

Lane! I meant lane!

Well, I wasn't kidding when I said the Tesla ruined me. That said, I'll give it a shot.

The obvious plus about the Volt is its price. The Tesla would have been a loan, but I paid cash for a used Volt.

I'm also back into trying to drive super-efficiently. I don't like having an engine running, even if I have one. Even though the Volt is the best PHEV out there (I don't really count the i3 REx as a PHEV) in terms of range, it's still only rated for 38 miles, and in the recent cold, I've been getting more like 30-35 miles on a full charge, mostly keeping the climate control in "Fan Only" or "Eco" modes unless I need to run the engine anyway. Unfortunately, I seem to tend to drive more like 40-50 miles total when I go somewhere, so I haven't been as gas-free as I'd like. I need to start finding places to plug in away from home again.

As far as Volt vs. Model 3: The Volt is WAY more sluggish in accelerator response, of course. The Volt's overall handling is pretty good, but still nowhere near the 3. The Volt beeps a lot more, and not really in helpful ways: The Tesla only beeped if you were about to hit something. The Volt beeps like crazy every time I put it into reverse, which is completely unhelpful. The reverse camera is OK, but it's a worse resolution being displayed on a much smaller display than the Tesla.

Controls: Holy cow, Chevy just vomited buttons. freaking. everywhere. There must be 80 of them just in the center stack, plus a dozen buttons and two wheels on the steering wheel, more on the left, some on the door, there's even buttons in the front of the door pocket! One of those is to release the charge port door, which confuses me. Is someone going to pour sugar into my battery or something? The Tesla's charge door can be opened from the touchscreen, from tapping on the door itself, or by pushing the button on the charge plug if using a Tesla charger (whether it's a portable or permanently installed one, or a Supercharger) and it closes itself a few seconds after you unplug.

The ergonomics of the 3 were also better. The controls were all within easy reach for me, holding the wheel left my arms in a comfortable position, and I never had to move anything more than my arm. As I'm tall, I tend to have to have my seat pretty far back, and the center stack buttons are at the limit of my arm's reach in the Volt. I have to either lean forward a bit or twist a bit to reach the touchscreen and some of the other buttons in the Volt, whereas the entire touchscreen and the few other controls in the 3 were all within easy reach.

The UI on the Tesla was much cleaner. The Volt has a million little things up in its display all the time, and it seems like most of them are given equal "weight". I find myself having to search for several seconds sometimes to find a particular indicator for a parameter I want to know in the Volt. In the 3, things were much cleaner and the most important things had the most emphasis on the screen. I'm also finding that the Volt doesn't have the ability to show some things I'm interested in, particularly engine RPM and temperature. Comparing to a more, uh, comparable vehicle, the Ford Fusion Energi I used to have had a much cleaner UI than the Volt, and it showed more too. It seems like the Volt's UI was designed to look cool when you check it out at the dealer, but real-world usability suffers.

I don't want this to come across as the Volt being a bad car. It's not. There are quite a few positive aspects to it, and it's a great stepping stone into EV driving and a great compromise vehicle for those who can't make a purely electric vehicle work for their mission. It's not even really a fair comparison. The Model 3 just simply out-classes the Volt in every way.

There's a definite "knee" in the drag curve around 80 mph, as well. I found this to be true of the i3, too. It's probably true of most any vehicle, we just don't notice it as much in a gasser because it's not giving us the detailed information on energy usage that EVs do.

I just noticed in the 3 that I was pulling my average above 300 Wh/mi when I went over 80 (probably about 85ish), while just parking the cruise or autopilot at 79 brought me back down into the 250 Wh/mi range.

Thank you. This was a really informative post. Appreciate your taking the time for a considered response, and your other postings on the topic.
I am no big fan of Tesla as a business model, but I have always thought the Model S was a stunning piece of work (even after all these years) and I am slowly starting to "get" why the attraction of the Model 3.

I am under the impression that Elon Musk exerts the same exceptional influence over the details of the Tesla vehicle design as Steve Jobs used to with Apple's products. Think back to the original iPod with it's sleek, smooth physical surface interface with the user at a time the Sony Walkman was the dominant product in that category. The single screen Model 3 contrast with the button filled Volt strikes me as somewhat analogous - the outcome of a single dominant influence compared to "design by committee" perhaps?

This.

When I first saw the Model 3 launch I thought that the monitor was goofy looking. Up to the point of release I just thought "surely it's a temporary thing, they're not actually going to release like that". But they did, and I wasn't enthused about it, but my wife still wanted the Model 3, so we went ahead with the order.

Went to go pick it up, and then I start using it, and I was like... Ahh!!! I get it it now!

I now by FAR prefer her Model 3 display to my Model S's display. With the Model S I always have to reach forward to use the touch screen, on the Model 3 everything is within arm's reach. So now I made a total 180 on that - I don't want to upgrade my Model S until they have a similar detached touch panel in there.

Don't get me wrong - I still think the Model S looks better, but usability-wise the Model 3 beats it hands down as far as the touch screen is concerned.

You made brief mention of this preference for your new '3' over your 'S' in another thread a short while back, but I didn't really understand what you were getting at. This amplification was quite helpful in that regard. Thank you.

Just as an aside, I do find the comments about "why isn't the Model 3 screen flush with the dash" a bit humorous. After all, how many of us now have iPads and/or phones projecting from yoke mounts or dangling from other "stuck-on" mounting places in our planes (@Ravioli being the notable exception, of course).

 

[flyingcheesehead]

What I saw definitely wasn't carbon fiber. Might have been carbon fiber substructure with a thin layer of cardboard egg carton applied.

Hmmm. I'm wondering what you saw, and if it's stock. Here's a couple of pics of the inside of i3 doors:

The part at the top toward the rear is fabric. The part that starts just in front of the door handle and wraps around the door pocket is plastic. The armrest is covered in leather, and the rest is carbon fiber (top toward the front, under the armrest, inside the door pocket, and around the bottom).

Thank you. This was a really informative post. Appreciate your taking the time for a considered response, and your other postings on the topic.

You're welcome - Thanks for noticing.

I am under the impression that Elon Musk exerts the same exceptional influence over the details of the Tesla vehicle design as Steve Jobs used to with Apple's products. Think back to the original iPod with it's sleek, smooth physical surface interface with the user at a time the Sony Walkman was the dominant product in that category. The single screen Model 3 contrast with the button filled Volt strikes me as somewhat analogous - the outcome of a single dominant influence compared to "design by committee" perhaps?

I think you're right on. Tesla reminds me of the Jobs era at Apple (the second one, 1997-2011) in so many ways. Incredibly smart visionary leader, products where form is every bit as important as function, and customers who become fans (and, yes, fanboys ).

The "form" part, however, doesn't really come from Musk and didn't come from Jobs. Neither of them were designers, they both just understood that it was important.

Soon after Jobs returned to Apple in 1997, a young designer named Jony Ive walked into his office with a resignation letter, frustrated at having been told to make yet another beige/gray box, and to "color inside the lines". Instead, Jobs offered to let him loose, and the iconic 1998 iMac was the result. Ive is still at Apple and has been responsible for the look of their many other iconic products, as well as the current look of iOS and Mac OS.

Likewise, Tesla has a fantastic designer in Franz von Holzhausen. He worked on the new VW Beetle concept early in his career, and later was the chief designer for a few other cars before Tesla, where he has been the chief designer for all of their vehicles except the original Roadster (which was really a Lotus Elise with a new powertrain). I was on my way to work one morning when I saw a good-looking car with a Saturn badge on it, and was lamenting Saturn's death, but I looked up the car because I was curious about it, and found that the Saturn Sky was designed by von Holzhausen:

And it's hard to argue with the "fanboy" aspect too, and Tesla may have even outdone Apple here. Tesla does not advertise, period - Musk is against that. He is, however, all about making a really great product and letting customers' word of mouth do the selling, and that has been a smashing success.

There's no greater demonstration of how successful they've been at making customers absolutely love their products and their mission, than what happened at the end of Q3. They knew they were going to need to get a lot of cars delivered in the last couple weeks of the quarter to make their goals. A podcaster and self-admitted Tesla fanboy, Ryan McCaffrey, sent a tweet to Elon Musk offering that owners such as himself could volunteer to help show new customers how their cars worked, thus freeing up the Tesla employees to crank through the official paperwork instead. Hundreds, maybe even thousands, of Tesla owners volunteered. When was the last time you saw anyone volunteer to work for a for-profit company? Even Apple hasn't ever managed that.

 

[JOhnH]

When was the last time you saw anyone volunteer to work for a for-profit company? Even Apple hasn't ever managed that.

It has been a while since I saw that. There were a few veterinary clinics that allowed young girls to volunteer just to get some experience, and because they loved animals. The DOL threatened them with legal action unless they paid all their current and former volunteers at least minimum wage. Otherwise, they would be cited for violations of wage & hour laws. There are very strict laws regarding volunteers at for-profit companies. It can be approved if the volunteer is getting an educational benefit, but the company cannot be accepting free or reduced fee labor.

I disagree with the law, in it's present form, but it is the law.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

The part at the top toward the rear is fabric. The part that starts just in front of the door handle and wraps around the door pocket is plastic. The armrest is covered in leather, and the rest is carbon fiber (top toward the front, under the armrest, inside the door pocket, and around the bottom).

This is carbon fiber.

 

[DesertNomad]

Sorry, but I hope Tesla goes away. Their battery plant east of Reno has made the traffic and cost of living here soar. I'm considering moving to Winnemucca or Elko to get away from the Californification of North-western Nevada.

 

[Sluggo63]

Living overseas in a pretty big city, my wife and I have no need for a car. We're actually dreading going back to the States and having to buy and use a car on a daily basis. Having said that, I have been thinking about a Model 3 to the point where test drove one when we were back in Phoenix last month. I have to say, for the 15-20 minutes that I drove it, it was great. It pushed me further into the "buy" side of the equation.

But, I had a couple of concerns that nag at me and can't seem to get a straight answer.

First and foremost in my mind (believe it or not) is the lack of spare tire. When the salesman told me there was no spare, I automatically assumed it had run-flats on them. Nope. They dispatch someone to change the tire for you. That concerns me. I know... how many flat tires does one person get in a year? I don't know. Maybe I get one every other year, not that often, right? But... I can change a tire in what, 20 minutes. Anytime I had to wait for roadside assistance from AAA, BMW, it took FOREVER. Does Tesla contract out with local providers to do this? What happens if I'm out in New Mexico somewhere on the way to Texas to visit my other kids and get a flat?

This is a concern of mine. Am I overthinking this?

 

[ktup-flyer]

I feel like Tesla in many ways at least from a perception perspective, is the Cirrus of the driving world..

Probably why I have zero interest...

 

[ktup-flyer]

Living overseas in a pretty big city, my wife and I have no need for a car. We're actually dreading going back to the States and having to buy and use a car on a daily basis. Having said that, I have been thinking about a Model 3 to the point where test drove one when we were back in Phoenix last month. I have to say, for the 15-20 minutes that I drove it, it was great. It pushed me further into the "buy" side of the equation.

But, I had a couple of concerns that nag at me and can't seem to get a straight answer.

First and foremost in my mind (believe it or not) is the lack of spare tire. When the salesman told me there was no spare, I automatically assumed it had run-flats on them. Nope. They dispatch someone to change the tire for you. That concerns me. I know... how many flat tires does one person get in a year? I don't know. Maybe I get one every other year, not that often, right? But... I can change a tire in what, 20 minutes. Anytime I had to wait for roadside assistance from AAA, BMW, it took FOREVER. Does Tesla contract out with local providers to do this? What happens if I'm out in New Mexico somewhere on the way to Texas to visit my other kids and get a flat?

This is a concern of mine. Am I overthinking this?

Most any performance-ish oriented car these days doesn't come with a spare. #1. Weight Savings. #2. Cost Cutting.

 

[Sluggo63]

Most any performance-ish oriented car these days doesn't come with a spare. #1. Weight Savings. #2. Cost Cutting.

I understand that, but most of those have run-flat tires, right? What struck me as odd was no spare and no run-flats. No choice but to sit on the side of the road until help arrives.

 

[tspear]

Living overseas in a pretty big city, my wife and I have no need for a car. We're actually dreading going back to the States and having to buy and use a car on a daily basis. Having said that, I have been thinking about a Model 3 to the point where test drove one when we were back in Phoenix last month. I have to say, for the 15-20 minutes that I drove it, it was great. It pushed me further into the "buy" side of the equation.

But, I had a couple of concerns that nag at me and can't seem to get a straight answer.

First and foremost in my mind (believe it or not) is the lack of spare tire. When the salesman told me there was no spare, I automatically assumed it had run-flats on them. Nope. They dispatch someone to change the tire for you. That concerns me. I know... how many flat tires does one person get in a year? I don't know. Maybe I get one every other year, not that often, right? But... I can change a tire in what, 20 minutes. Anytime I had to wait for roadside assistance from AAA, BMW, it took FOREVER. Does Tesla contract out with local providers to do this? What happens if I'm out in New Mexico somewhere on the way to Texas to visit my other kids and get a flat?

This is a concern of mine. Am I overthinking this?

My last flat tire was over a decade ago after driving through construction. I have varied between driving 30K miles a year and 5K miles a depending on if I work from home; so plenty of miles with more years closer to 30K.

Tim

 

[FastEddieB]

No choice but to sit on the side of the road until help arrives.

To be fair, at least on our Clarity it has a canister of tire sealant and a 12v compressor as standard.

Won’t cope with a catastrophic failure, of course, but it’s something.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

First and foremost in my mind (believe it or not) is the lack of spare tire. When the salesman told me there was no spare, I automatically assumed it had run-flats on them. Nope. They dispatch someone to change the tire for you. That concerns me. I know... how many flat tires does one person get in a year? I don't know. Maybe I get one every other year, not that often, right? But... I can change a tire in what, 20 minutes. Anytime I had to wait for roadside assistance from AAA, BMW, it took FOREVER. Does Tesla contract out with local providers to do this? What happens if I'm out in New Mexico somewhere on the way to Texas to visit my other kids and get a flat?

This is a concern of mine. Am I overthinking this?

You're overthinking it. Most cars today (and I assume the Tesla as well) have tire pressure monitoring. Tires rarely go flat to begin with. When they do go flat, they rarely go flat quickly. Its generally a slow process that takes hours or even days. When you get a low pressure light, you take the vehicle and get it fixed.

The last time I had a tire issue, I was about 70 miles from home on a Sunday. About a mile into the ride home the tire pressure light came on. I pulled over and found air hissing out around a bolt that was stuck in one of the tires. It was losing air quickly and it was a Sunday so no tire shops open. I stopped at the nearest convenience store and aired up the tire. Then I stopped at the next convenience store and aired up again and kept doing that the whole drive home. No spare needed.

 

[ktup-flyer]

I understand that, but most of those have run-flat tires, right? What struck me as odd was no spare and no run-flats. No choice but to sit on the side of the road until help arrives.

Nope. Most have a compressor in the trunk with that fix-a-flat garbage

 

[Ted]

Living overseas in a pretty big city, my wife and I have no need for a car. We're actually dreading going back to the States and having to buy and use a car on a daily basis. Having said that, I have been thinking about a Model 3 to the point where test drove one when we were back in Phoenix last month. I have to say, for the 15-20 minutes that I drove it, it was great. It pushed me further into the "buy" side of the equation.

But, I had a couple of concerns that nag at me and can't seem to get a straight answer.

First and foremost in my mind (believe it or not) is the lack of spare tire. When the salesman told me there was no spare, I automatically assumed it had run-flats on them. Nope. They dispatch someone to change the tire for you. That concerns me. I know... how many flat tires does one person get in a year? I don't know. Maybe I get one every other year, not that often, right? But... I can change a tire in what, 20 minutes. Anytime I had to wait for roadside assistance from AAA, BMW, it took FOREVER. Does Tesla contract out with local providers to do this? What happens if I'm out in New Mexico somewhere on the way to Texas to visit my other kids and get a flat?

This is a concern of mine. Am I overthinking this?

I would say you're overthinking it. Tires are better than they used to be. In my case I would say a flat tire isn't a once a year occurrence, it's more of a once every 4-5 year occurrence. Meanwhile the spare tire is gaining age and taking up space and adding weight.

If you're that worried, a small 12V air compressor and a bottle of fix-a-flat in the trunk and you're done. This is actually what my E55 came with from the factory.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I understand that, but most of those have run-flat tires, right? What struck me as odd was no spare and no run-flats. No choice but to sit on the side of the road until help arrives.

My Grand Prix GXP had no spare tire (there was a spare tire well due to GP base platform), no run-flat tires, and no air pump/fix-a-flat. The car was sold from the factory with OnStar Roadside Assistance for X years. We never had a flat on it in 150K miles.

I had my '08 F-150 give me a low-pressure warning when I was towing the jet ski coming back from the lake. I found a Walmart within 10 miles of me, went in and bought a tire plug kit, and drove to the nearest gas station with an air compressor. I found the puncture (wood screw), put in the tire plug, aired up the tire and let it cure for about 15 minutes. Drove an hour home down the highway with no problems. I had a full-size spare tire, but since the flat was on the rear and I had non-factory size tires, I didn't want to play the tire-rotation waltz in the parking lot.

 

[RJM62]

I would say you're overthinking it. Tires are better than they used to be. In my case I would say a flat tire isn't a once a year occurrence, it's more of a once every 4-5 year occurrence. Meanwhile the spare tire is gaining age and taking up space and adding weight.

If you're that worried, a small 12V air compressor and a bottle of fix-a-flat in the trunk and you're done. This is actually what my E55 came with from the factory.

I'll pass on the fix-a-flat. Few mechanics will properly repair a tire that's been gooed. Apparently the plugs and patches have a tendency to not adhere properly after a goo job. I'm not sure I believe that, but enough mechanics have told me that that I have to think it's at least possible. Supposedly some industry report came out some years back claiming that the sealant alters the composition of the rubber in a way that affects adhesion of patches and plugs.

Also, you'll probably kill the TPMS sender if you use a sealant.

Fortunately, plugging a tire on the side of the road isn't exactly rocket surgery. The hardest part is finding the leak, which is pretty easy if it's a nail or something along those lines. Find the puncture, remove the offending object, clean the hole, and plug it.

If the leak is bigger than can be repaired with a plug, you'll probably be needing a new tire anyway. If it's in the sidewall, you'll definitely be needing a new tire. But either way, at least you won't have killed the TPMS sensor by filling it with goo.

For my part, I won't drive without a spare. If the car doesn't come with one, I buy either a donut or a full-sized spare. If the leak can't be plugged (or if I can't find the leak), at least I can keep driving if I don't feel like waiting for AAA.

Rich

 

[Zeldman]

What happens if I'm out in New Mexico somewhere on the way to Texas to visit my other kids and get a flat?

A flat tire in the middle of nowhere NM would be a problem. Be prepared to wait. And wait. And wait more. Even longer if on a reservation. In summer the heat may become another problem. Unless you are close to a town and on the interstate. Off the interstate a bigger problem might be cell service. I-40 has cell service across the state except for a couple very small areas. I-10 is the same in New Mexico. I am not sure about the Texas side.

Another problem would be finding a charging station (that is working) in the smaller towns.

Here in Gallup there is at least two hotels that have charging stations. More in Albuquerque.

But don't worry, if you get stuck out on a road the Indians are pretty much all friendly now.....

 

[Ted]

I'll pass on the fix-a-flat. Few mechanics will properly repair a tire that's been gooed. Apparently the plugs and patches have a tendency to not adhere properly after a goo job. I'm not sure I believe that, but enough mechanics have told me that that I have to think it's at least possible. Supposedly some industry report came out some years back claiming that the sealant alters the composition of the rubber in a way that affects adhesion of patches and plugs.

Also, you'll probably kill the TPMS sender if you use a sealant.

Fortunately, plugging a tire on the side of the road isn't exactly rocket surgery. The hardest part is finding the leak, which is pretty easy if it's a nail or something along those lines. Find the puncture, remove the offending object, clean the hole, and plug it.

If the leak is bigger than can be repaired with a plug, you'll probably be needing a new tire anyway. If it's in the sidewall, you'll definitely be needing a new tire. But either way, at least you won't have killed the TPMS sensor by filling it with goo.

For my part, I won't drive without a spare. If the car doesn't come with one, I buy either a donut or a full-sized spare. If the leak can't be plugged (or if I can't find the leak), at least I can keep driving if I don't feel like waiting for AAA.

Fix-A-Flat is by no means good for the wheels, nor was I suggesting that it was. However it'll get you to a shop to get a new tire when it goes flat and doesn't take up much space. You're right that using a plug isn't rocket science, but it's also not guaranteed to work.

Like I said, in my experience the chances of a flat tire are pretty low so I don't worry about it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I would say you're overthinking it. Tires are better than they used to be. In my case I would say a flat tire isn't a once a year occurrence, it's more of a once every 4-5 year occurrence. Meanwhile the spare tire is gaining age and taking up space and adding weight.

If you're that worried, a small 12V air compressor and a bottle of fix-a-flat in the trunk and you're done. This is actually what my E55 came with from the factory.

This. Most cars are moving to this type of setup. Hybrids are what started it, they used the space where the spare tire used to live for their batteries in many cases.

I've had multiple tires go flat, but with TPMS you know it and can usually find a gas station or just go home and air it back up, and drive it somewhere for a new tire. I've been driving for over 25 years, and I have had exactly one tire that I had to change on the side of the road that wasn't related to an accident (I've been sideswiped into a curb a couple of times too).

FWIW, I haven't heard Tesla owners complaining about long waits for service on tires either.

 

[Ghery]

First and foremost in my mind (believe it or not) is the lack of spare tire. When the salesman told me there was no spare, I automatically assumed it had run-flats on them. Nope. They dispatch someone to change the tire for you. That concerns me. I know... how many flat tires does one person get in a year? I don't know. Maybe I get one every other year, not that often, right? But... I can change a tire in what, 20 minutes. Anytime I had to wait for roadside assistance from AAA, BMW, it took FOREVER. Does Tesla contract out with local providers to do this? What happens if I'm out in New Mexico somewhere on the way to Texas to visit my other kids and get a flat?

This is a concern of mine. Am I overthinking this?

I'm trying to remember the last time I had a flat tire while driving. It's been a while. I know it was with the current primary car, but the flats all happened while it was parked in the driveway. And, I needed a new tire as punctures in the sidewall are a "replace the tire" deal. I don't think this would be a major problem. I've got a 20 year old Jeep Wrangler that has never had its spare off the mount, and the same goes for my wife's 2006 Jeep Commander.

 

[RJM62]

Fix-A-Flat is by no means good for the wheels, nor was I suggesting that it was. However it'll get you to a shop to get a new tire when it goes flat and doesn't take up much space. You're right that using a plug isn't rocket science, but it's also not guaranteed to work.

Like I said, in my experience the chances of a flat tire are pretty low so I don't worry about it.

It really depends where you live and drive. Where I am, a flat could mean a 10- to 20-mile walk just to find a cell signal to call for roadside service. Even if I could make a call, it might be quite some time before AAA arrived. So I carry a spare. If I still lived in The City, I wouldn't care so much. There's a tire shop on every street corner down there.

In my opinion, the demise of spare tires to save weight and improve fuel economy is a lot like lightening holes in airframes. By itself, eliminating the weight of the spare makes very little difference. But it's just one of many fuel-saving optimizations.

I keep OCD-like records for my cars, and I noticed zero reduction in fuel economy after adding the spare. But I also understand the pressure on car manufacturers to meet CAFE standards for their lines as manufactured. What owners do aftermarket is on them. That's probably why most cars that don't come with spares do have wells to store them in. My last two cars fell into that category.

As for the Tesla, if I were inclined to buy a straight electric car, the lack of a spare wouldn't be a deal-killer unless there was no place for me to put one that I bought myself. That would make me walk away.

<snip>

FWIW, I haven't heard Tesla owners complaining about long waits for service on tires either.

That's probably true; but I doubt too many Tesla owners live in places with long stretches of nothing but trees, where even calling for roadside assistance is impossible without a long walk. Unless the cars have SatPhone capability (which they may, for all I know), their assurance of roadside service wouldn't be enough to sway me from wanting a spare (or at least a place to store one that I bought myself).

As for run-flat tires, I wonder if they would interfere with the regenerative braking? Maybe the tires themselves absorb enough of the deceleration force to reduce the regen efficiency. It's an interesting engineering / physics question to ponder.

Rich

 

[JOhnH]

I would say you're overthinking it. Tires are better than they used to be. In my case I would say a flat tire isn't a once a year occurrence, it's more of a once every 4-5 year occurrence. Meanwhile the spare tire is gaining age and taking up space and adding weight.

If you're that worried, a small 12V air compressor and a bottle of fix-a-flat in the trunk and you're done. This is actually what my E55 came with from the factory.

I can't remember the last time I had a flat tire. It must be at least 12 to 15 years, or more.
But I still make sure I put run-flats on my wifes' BMW because I don't want her on the side of the road even once ever score.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

As for the Tesla, if I were inclined to buy a straight electric car, the lack of a spare wouldn't be a deal-killer unless there was no place for me to put one that I bought myself. That would make me walk away.

Heck, you could probably fit TWO of 'em in the "Frunk" if you wanted to.

 

[SoonerAviator]

. . .As for run-flat tires, I wonder if they would interfere with the regenerative braking? Maybe the tires themselves absorb enough of the deceleration force to reduce the regen efficiency. It's an interesting engineering / physics question to ponder.

Rich

Run flat tires are significantly heavier than their regular counterparts. The C5 Corvettes had them factory-installed in lieu of a spare tire, but the z06 high-performance model ditched the run flats due to the heavier weight/rotational mass (as well as their lower-performing rubber compound).

 

[deonb]

I've had 7 flats in the last 8 years - three of them on the Tesla. It was simply a matter of using their inflator thingy plugged into the lighter socket and inflating the tire enough to get me 20 miles to the nearest tire place. I have Fix-A-Flat that I can use in an extreme emergency, knowing I'll have to buy a new wheel after. But I'll call a tow truck if possible before that.

My other 4 flats were all on my F350 - thank goodness always on the dually axis. Just keep on driving!

Despite of all that, I still have no issues continuing to drive without a spare. I just don't see myself changing a wheel even if I had the option.