Katamarino
Pattern Altitude
Yes, old info that has been posted several times already on here, along with about 10 posts all explaining why it is irrelevant to ADS-B.
Tell your congressman to make registration data private
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Yes, old info that has been posted several times already on here, along with about 10 posts all explaining why it is irrelevant to ADS-B.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Equally the FAA has no legitimate reason to keep this data secret. An N# and it’s location is not personal data. No one can determine, or cares, if you are on business trips, scouting locations, visiting a potential recruit from a competitor, or an illegitimate child by the location of an N#.
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What makes you think so? The Ninth Amendment says that a right not being listed in the Constitution does not prove that it doesn't exist, and the Supreme Court has recognized that there is a right to privacy for some purposes.
https://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment9.html
https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/do-you-have-a-right-to-privacy-31474
That's the point. License plate data is not freely available to the public, and the reasons why that should be so apply just as much to aircraft owners as they do to motor vehicle owners.
The same reasoning could be used to say that the DMV has no legitimate reason to keep the names and addresses of license plate holders secret. Would you favor putting that information on publicly accessible Web sites?
C-1 PILOT
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Thanks for the explanation, much appreciated.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Let’s flip the coin, if you saw someone trying to steal your property and you had a tag#, do you believe you should be able to look up that tag to know who it was? It is illegal for the police to give you that info from LEADS records.
Personally I believe all registration, license and tax information should be public.
Landing Fees
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I would. If people didn’t think they had the anonymity perhaps they wouldn’t drive like such a-holes.
I do not.
I believe that it should be made legal to subpoena that information, if it is not already.
Well, at least pilots would no longer be discriminated against in your proposal, but I think the public outcry would render it "dead on arrival."
My position is that there is no justification for having one privacy standard for motorists, and another for pilots. It sounds like we at least agree on that.
That's an appealing argument, but I have a feeling that the negative consequences would outweigh the positive.
dans2992
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There was a similar outcry about AIS on ships. (Similar technology). People with yachts were upset about being trackable.
Never did result in any changes. I believe some senators told them “there is no expectation of privacy in territorial waters” or something to that effect.
Never did result in any changes. I believe some senators told them “there is no expectation of privacy in territorial waters” or something to that effect.
Ace66
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Then record them with a dash cam and take it to the police who should be the ones with the only access to people’s data. (This actually does happen).
Same thing with flying. If someone buzzes a town then people should video him with his N number and take it to the FAA who then looks it up. The victims should not have access to that data less they become vigilantes.
I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense - the justification for obscuring real-time location data, other than for ATC necessity, is self-evident, as plenty of posters here articulated; there is no public benefit to expose my aircraft's location in real-time, and plenty of good reasons not to do so.
You, acting as a private citizen, have no compelling need, and no real public need is evident, either. And acting as an other than gov't entity, you definitelty do not, whereas the aircraft operator certainly may have reason to require it not be broadcast indiscriminately.
My N number is not, as you say, personal data - but where the aircraft (and I) are at any given moment in time is.
iflyatiger
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Consider..
Right or wrong think about all of the security measures enacted to keep airports and small aircraft safe against the bad guy using aviation as a terrorist tool.. Fences, badges, rules, etc.. All of the money spent!
But then let's just go ahead and give out the addresses of aircraft owners and pilots and let's make tracking them as easy as using a website.. Somehow doesn't sound so smart or in line with the often touted "aviation including GA is an attractive target for the bad guys"
Right or wrong think about all of the security measures enacted to keep airports and small aircraft safe against the bad guy using aviation as a terrorist tool.. Fences, badges, rules, etc.. All of the money spent!
But then let's just go ahead and give out the addresses of aircraft owners and pilots and let's make tracking them as easy as using a website.. Somehow doesn't sound so smart or in line with the often touted "aviation including GA is an attractive target for the bad guys"
dans2992
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So... if tons of people installed license plate readers in their front yards, and a centralized non-govt database was kept of what plate was seen where and when.... would that be legal?
I’m thinking it would be.
I’m thinking it would be.
KaiGywer
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No, because if you have a tag you can give it to the police who will then investigate, not go on some vigilante mission.
It is. Doesn't even take a subpoena in some states, just a reasonable reason for request to the DOT.
I believe, in formation flight, the lead aircraft is the only aircraft with an active transponder. All the other aircraft in the formation have their transponders OFF or in STBY.
As I understand the operation of Mode S / ADS-B, the altitude portion of the reply can be suppressed at the request of ATC by switching the transponder from the ALT to ON Mode like is provided for with Mode A/C transponders. With the altitude suppressed, the Mode S transponders set the altitude field to "0" (zero), however all other Mode S / ADS-B data is still transmitted via reply, squitter, or broadcast. This is analogous to the Mode C transponders transmitting just the framing pulses for a Mode C reply, while still replying with the Mode A 4096 code with the Mode A/C transponder is placed in the ON Mode. The broadcast ADS-B data includes the aircraft type, the tail number, the Mode S 24 bit code, and the position data among other Mode S / ADS-B data. Since the position data (lat/lon) is still broadcast with the transponder in the ON mode, and the only way to disable the ADS-B data with a current ADS-B transponder is to turn it off or place it in standby it appears the NPRM allows for the operator of a "public service" aircraft to turn off, or place the transponder in standby to suppress the transmission of the position data. As stated in the NPRM, "Once the FAA receives a request to terminate broadcasting, the FAA will issue authorizations to turn ADS-B Out off following an assessment that the operations can be accommodated without any negative impact on the safety and efficiency of the NAS."
iflyatiger
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Good thread OP.
It looks like what a lot of us believe should happen is not so far fetched after all..
Notice the last paragraph...
From today's aero-news.net
Developing An Opt-Out Solution Based On Providing Operators An Alternate 24-Bit Icao (Mode S Transponder) Code
Given the long-standing recognition by government and industry of the need to maintain in-flight security, NBAA is working with the FAA and other stakeholders to identify the most effective means to ensure that operators continue to have the ability to opt out from having their flights tracked in real time, following a conversation many aircraft will make to new ADS-B technology, starting Jan. 1, 2020.
NBAA – through its involvement with the FAA’s Equip 2020 working group, as well as engagement with the FAA’s Surveillance and Broadcast Services, System Wide Information Management and System Operations Services groups – is working with the agency and other general aviation associations to develop an opt-out solution, based on providing operators an alternate 24-bit ICAO (Mode S transponder) code.
Under this solution, operators would retain their permanent transponder code tied to an aircraft’s N-number, but would also be able to use a secondary, non-published code, assigned and managed by the FAA, which would not link to the specific aircraft tail number. It is expected that operators could request a new secondary code at least once every 30 days.
The addition of this new, secondary ICAO code program to the existing FAA Blocked Aircraft Registration Request (BARR) program would address not only what information managed by FAA is shared under BARR, but also the data transmitted by the aircraft itself to determine its identification throughout the NAS. While private ADS-B receivers could still detect an aircraft flying overhead, they would not see any information allowing them to match that aircraft to the owner listed in the FAA Registry.
“Everyone agrees that a person shouldn’t need to give up his or her security when boarding an airplane,” said NBAA president and CEO Ed Bolen. “We remain committed to working with the FAA and others to ensure that operators are given an ability to opt out from having their flights tracked in real time, basically by anyone, anywhere in the world, who happens to have the appropriate equipment for doing so, and whose intentions may be unknown.”
Since 2000, Congress has repeatedly passed legislation mandating that the FAA provide a means for opting out from real-time flight tracking, regardless of the technology involved. While such a provision has long been in effect in the U.S., it does not necessarily apply to international flights.
It looks like what a lot of us believe should happen is not so far fetched after all..
Notice the last paragraph...
From today's aero-news.net
Developing An Opt-Out Solution Based On Providing Operators An Alternate 24-Bit Icao (Mode S Transponder) Code
Given the long-standing recognition by government and industry of the need to maintain in-flight security, NBAA is working with the FAA and other stakeholders to identify the most effective means to ensure that operators continue to have the ability to opt out from having their flights tracked in real time, following a conversation many aircraft will make to new ADS-B technology, starting Jan. 1, 2020.
NBAA – through its involvement with the FAA’s Equip 2020 working group, as well as engagement with the FAA’s Surveillance and Broadcast Services, System Wide Information Management and System Operations Services groups – is working with the agency and other general aviation associations to develop an opt-out solution, based on providing operators an alternate 24-bit ICAO (Mode S transponder) code.
Under this solution, operators would retain their permanent transponder code tied to an aircraft’s N-number, but would also be able to use a secondary, non-published code, assigned and managed by the FAA, which would not link to the specific aircraft tail number. It is expected that operators could request a new secondary code at least once every 30 days.
The addition of this new, secondary ICAO code program to the existing FAA Blocked Aircraft Registration Request (BARR) program would address not only what information managed by FAA is shared under BARR, but also the data transmitted by the aircraft itself to determine its identification throughout the NAS. While private ADS-B receivers could still detect an aircraft flying overhead, they would not see any information allowing them to match that aircraft to the owner listed in the FAA Registry.
“Everyone agrees that a person shouldn’t need to give up his or her security when boarding an airplane,” said NBAA president and CEO Ed Bolen. “We remain committed to working with the FAA and others to ensure that operators are given an ability to opt out from having their flights tracked in real time, basically by anyone, anywhere in the world, who happens to have the appropriate equipment for doing so, and whose intentions may be unknown.”
Since 2000, Congress has repeatedly passed legislation mandating that the FAA provide a means for opting out from real-time flight tracking, regardless of the technology involved. While such a provision has long been in effect in the U.S., it does not necessarily apply to international flights.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
It's too bad that so-called "spell-checkers" have put an end to proofreading, because they can't tell that "conversation" is not how you spell "conversion."
I dunno, a lot of pilots probably have conversations with their aircraft. Usually right before they put it down in a field due to fuel exhaustion.
"Come on baby, just a little bit farther. I know you can do it, just a little farther..."
I don't think we were debating the legality, though someone with deep pockets might find a way to prevail. . . you might not want to be the citizen who posted a plate number that led to a loss, injury, or death. Civil court is very unpredictable.
You don't have a bad analogy, though, but not quite the same, I think. The forced, open, indiscriminate broadcasting of aircraft locations casts a wider net - license plate readers in front yards wouldn't be a government mandate, one with no practical way to opt out. And driving from NY to ATL, I don't pass by many front yards.
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Not taking a side in this debate, but just some information: yesterday, I saw someone on my security camera pull up to my house, take a picture, then speed away. My camera is HD so I got their car's license plate. A few bucks later on the internet, I got their complete info. Just saying.
Oh, and turns out the photographer was an appraiser, as my house just sold. I figured it was an appraiser, but I also thought it was weird as it was 6pm on a Sunday, so that's why I checked.
Oh, and turns out the photographer was an appraiser, as my house just sold. I figured it was an appraiser, but I also thought it was weird as it was 6pm on a Sunday, so that's why I checked.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Did that internet information show you where they were at that exact moment based on their license plate?
Weekend Warrior
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Yes. (Silly question deserves a silly answer). Actually no, but:
ADSB shows your plane's location when you are flying. I fly about 100 hours a year. So for 100 hours you can tell where my plane is at (but still not me, at least not for sure). That leaves the remaining 8660 hours for you to guess.
Weekend Warrior
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And I agree with you that it shouldn't be made public, but disagree that it is a big deal (and also obviously disagree that license plate information isnot available to the public).
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DaleB
Final Approach
My only comment would be,
1.) It's not a big deal to you. It is to some people.
2.) License plate information is available IF you want to pay for it, but it still
a.) isn't available instantly and anonymously to everyone worldwide with nothing more than a simple web page, and
b.) doesn't include tracking tell you where the person who owns the car has been or currently is.
b.) doesn't include tracking tell you where the person who owns the car has been or currently is.
Weekend Warrior
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Neither does ADSB. It doesn't track people. It tracks aircraft.
EdFred
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If owned by an individual, it does essentially track a person. Just like an RFID chip in an ID card does.
Weekend Warrior
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Also, my eyes can track cars, people, planes, etc. Of course, my eyes are limited (more so every day) but they CAN do that.
Weekend Warrior
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Lots of planes are owned by individuals that don't fly them. Ask my mechanic, who flys WAY more than me, but doesn't own a plane, and doesn't rent either.
DaleB
Final Approach
Sigh. Yes, if you work hard enough, you can come up with a limitless supply of reasons why YOU don't care about this. Surprisingly enough, not everyone feels the same way.
Weekend Warrior
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And obviously you can come up with reasons why you do.
I'm new here, but I think that's what we do, on this POA, isn't it?
DaleB
Final Approach
You are correct, sir. Inane arguments over meaningless crap is our collective specialty. And, with that in mind...
I never said I cared, did I?
(Actually, I probably did say so, and I do care, but given the current tilt of the discussion I thought a little pointless argument might blend in well.)
Weekend Warrior
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Mr Madman
Touché
lancie00
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I'm a farmer. I buy tons of fertilizer and 1000 gallons of diesel fuel at a time. I have a friend named Al. I'm not doing anything wrong but I don't want people to follow me because they MIGHT THINK I'M DOING SOMETHING WRONG, even when I'm not.
What if you went to Joe's knives and bought a new fillet knife for fishing, then your neighbor get's murdered with a knife. I bet you wish they didn't know you went to Joe's now, do you?
Weekend Warrior
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So instead, they view the surveillance video from Joe's, see you there, and say, "Ah ha! You kept your trip to Joe's a secret!" LOL
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Hell, I can't even make my Pilot Certificate info private, even though the FEDERAL LAW mandates it. The FAA doesn't give a rat's ass about complying with the law.
Lachlan
En-Route
Government of the people, by the people, for the people. Riiiiight... 
I think it's a witches brew of not caring, incompetence, arrogance, and lack of accountability. It's a slow, inflexible, and bloated bureacracy - the primary goal of which is to protect their budget, and careers. When those goals intersect with aviation needs, some things do get done, albeit with mediocre results.
Plenty of good folks there, but the culture is toxic, top down, and a study in the worst of 1960s management. . .if they were subject to competetion, you wouldn't hire them to fold laundry; you might maybe head-hunt some of their best folks, but that's about it. . .