TCAS-RA

FPK1

FPK1

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Apr 21, 2021
Messages
660
Location
Orange County, CA
Display Name
Display name:
FPK1
Just curious, when there is a TCAS-RA incident, are the pilots required to report it to the FAA or someone?

 
FPK1 said:
Just curious, when there is a TCAS-RA incident, are the pilots required to report it to the FAA or someone?

Click to expand...
Well, you inform ATC (which is the FAA) ASAP, so there’s that.
 
1. We are required to comply with an RA, even if it conflicts with ATC instructions.
2. We are required to report the RA to ATC then report when we are clear on conflict. ATC will not give us control instructions while the RA is active.
3. We are required to file a written report after having an RA.

Flight: "[Callsign], TCAS RA"
ATC: "[Callsign], Roger"
Flight: "[Callsign], Clear of conflict"
 
Database of detected TCAS RAs….

"Closest" Aircraft (TCAS Cockpit RA's) - ADS-B Exchange

This table is generated based on TCAS alerts received by our network. TCAS is a cockpit system, mandatory on “larger” aircraft. EU and US rules vary, but typically aircraft over 12,500 lbs and/or over 19 passenger seats will be equipped with TCAS. The TCAS systems in each plane typically talk to...
www.adsbexchange.com www.adsbexchange.com
 
TCAS RAs in Class A airspace used to require an NTSB report but that was done away with.

Years ago, I was cruising up IFR through Chicagoland and it went something like this:

27K: Is there any altitude that I can request that can avoid me having to go to the KELSI intersection?
C90: Let me check... no
27K: OK, I'm going to climb up to 10,5, cancel IFR and you'll give me flight following to oshkosh.
C90: We can do that.

So I'm pretty much flying up the lakeshore at 10,500. ATC is holding MDW and ORD eastbound departures at 9,000 to avoid me but all of a sudden I see an MD80 climbing in front of me. Then I see him descending.

MD80: I just got a TCAS RA
C90: Oh, yeah, there's a Navion up there.
27K: I had him in sight.

I decided if this guy was going to file an NTSB report, I'd send one in, too. Little did I know that one of Margy's volunteers at Hazy worked at the NTSB reviewing these submissions. She got a call: "Can't you guys go to Oshkosh without scaring the **** out of some airline pilot."
 
Larry in TN said:
1. We are required to comply with an RA, even if it conflicts with ATC instructions.
2. We are required to report the RA to ATC then report when we are clear on conflict. ATC will not give us control instructions while the RA is active.
3. We are required to file a written report after having an RA.

Flight: "[Callsign], TCAS RA"
ATC: "[Callsign], Roger"
Flight: "[Callsign], Clear of conflict"
Click to expand...
And @Kritchlow , what about company? Are you supposed to notify them also? Like ‘log’ it or something?
 
Only time I experienced an RA was when I was right seat in a Citation heading south to Naples, Florida. We were level at FL 210 when a departure out of Fort Myers was cleared to FL 200. That set off the TCAS and my pilot climbed immediately. He reported the RA to ATC and the controller asked, "What was your last assigned altitude? " Then she asked the other aircraft the same question. I pointed out to the pilot that she wanted that on the tape.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
Only time I experienced an RA was when I was right seat in a Citation heading south to Naples, Florida. We were level at FL 210 when a departure out of Fort Myers was cleared to FL 200. That set off the TCAS and my pilot climbed immediately. He reported the RA to ATC and the controller asked, "What was your last assigned altitude? " Then she asked the other aircraft the same question. I pointed out to the pilot that she wanted that on the tape.
Click to expand...
Whom ever assigned the initial FL200, it’ll be on their tapes. In an RA all she has to do is monitor your progress and issue traffic / safety alerts. On the controller’s end it’s a non event because their separation standards go out the window until approved separation is reestablished.

The problem with RAs is, a lot of times they go off, you hear a pilot get flustered about it when in reality the distances could very well be within ATC standards.
 
Larry in TN said:
1. We are required to comply with an RA, even if it conflicts with ATC instructions.
2. We are required to report the RA to ATC then report when we are clear on conflict. ATC will not give us control instructions while the RA is active.
3. We are required to file a written report after having an RA.

Flight: "[Callsign], TCAS RA"
ATC: "[Callsign], Roger"
Flight: "[Callsign], Clear of conflict"
Click to expand...
Thanks, seems like the controller in the above video put two planes too close together and I wondered if he would ever hear about it for training purposes...
 
FPK1 said:
Thanks, seems like the controller in the above video put two planes too close together and I wondered if he would ever hear about it for training purposes...
Click to expand...
Depends, with these vids a lot of times they leave critical information out of the recording. In this case, while it sounds like the controller is using visual separation, I never heard him say such. All you hear is that both aircraft have each other in sight. If indeed he had visual sep, an RA doesn’t mean anything on the controller side.
 
Like this situation. While the pilots of AAL had a problem with how close the PC12 was, technically the controller has approved sep (500 ft vert) for this condition. That’s why he’s so nonchalant in his instruction to the PC12 to box him out again.

 
FPK1 said:
Thanks, seems like the controller in the above video put two planes too close together and I wondered if he would ever hear about it for training purposes...
Click to expand...
Probably not.

TCAS doesn't know anything about ATC separation standards. It predicts a point of closest approach and issues TAs and RAs based on that. TCAS does not know the intentions or clearances of each airplane, only what they are doing now.

One instance that can produce nuisance RAs is when one aircraft is climbing, or descending, to 1,000' above/below another. TCAS doesn't know that the aircraft is going to level off--And maybe they won't--so it issues a TA then RA. If both aircraft have TCAS, they will coordinate the response so both aircraft will get the TA at the same time. This usually leaves enough time for the climbing/descening aircraft to slow their vertical speed enough to prevent the RA.

I have no idea why the VNAV systems haven't been programmed to follow the AIM recommendation to slow to 500-1,500fpm for the last 1,000' of a climb or descent. It's only been about 30 years since TCAS was introduced. That would be enough to prevent almost all of this type of RAs.
 
luvflyin said:
And @Kritchlow , what about company? Are you supposed to notify them also? Like ‘log’ it or something?
Click to expand...
We file a report with company. God only knows where it goes from there.

Regardless, if the crew follows tcas instruction, we are in the clear.
 
Velocity173 said:
Depends, with these vids a lot of times they leave critical information out of the recording. In this case, while it sounds like the controller is using visual separation, I never heard him say such. All you hear is that both aircraft have each other in sight. If indeed he had visual sep, an RA doesn’t mean anything on the controller side.
Click to expand...
Yeah. The recording doesn't even start until after SKY5592 had probably been told to maintain visual separation.
 
Last edited:
FPK1 said:
Thanks, seems like the controller in the above video put two planes too close together and I wondered if he would ever hear about it for training purposes...
Click to expand...
I can hear/see nothing that puts the two planes TOO close together. The Controller was following all the rules. Yeah, they get close, but the scenario you see happens hundreds, probably thousands of times a day and night at airports with parallel runways. I went back and added 'and night.' Visual separation can get a little sketchy at night sometimes. Especially when the visibility is very good and you can see a sea of lights very far away. As I was watching this I was thinking about the, was it Lufthansa, incident at LAX a while back. Some airlines do not allow their pilots to accept Visual Separation at night.
 
Velocity173 said:
Like this situation. While the pilots of AAL had a problem with how close the PC12 was, technically the controller has approved sep (500 ft vert) for this condition. That’s why he’s so nonchalant in his instruction to the PC12 to box him out again.

Click to expand...
The PC12 lined up on the wrong runway. That being said, they had 500ft separation at all times it seems, so no loss of separation.
 
dans2992 said:
The PC12 lined up on the wrong runway. That being said, they had 500ft separation at all times it seems, so no loss of separation.
Click to expand...
Yeah and if the controller had cleared the PC12 that would have been bad. But with no approach clearance and I’d be willing to bet GDP was assigned at or above 2,500, there’s no threat of him descending. The system worked.
 
There is a 40B100 Class B Shelf west of the Henderson NV (HND) airport. A lot of pilots use that space between 4000 and the ground (~2500) to get around the west side of the Class B to get to the airport to the NW, KVGT. When LAS is landing Rwy 1, the ILS is in that area. GA pilots below the Class B headed east/west and not talking to ATC have been known to set off TCAS on the airliner on the ILS approach. Some airliners can recover and land, others elect to "go-around", which sets off ATC that they have to re- sequence the traffic.

For those familiar with Las Vegas, the 2998 building west of the Henderson Airport is the M Casino.

1704150508159.png
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top