taxi for takeoff after landing, class-B

bflynn

bflynn

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Brian Flynn
I don't fly in controlled airspace much. I'm ok with getting in and out of Class-C, but a question on class B - when does your clearance expire? Specifically, if I land and then request taxi for take off again, do I need a new clearance?

This will be done outside of a push period.
 
Which airport are you asking about?
 
Taxi for takeoff is one of those rare situations in which I would be willing to assume a Class B clearance. Like Class C, you are going to get specific departure instructions including a heading and altitude and heading and altitude.

I have both received and not received , "Cleared into the class Bravo," as part of those instructions.
 
steingar said:
I for one am not doing touch and goes at a Bravo.
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It never hurts to ask. The worst they can say is no....and after the cleared t-n-g I was not cleared to re-enter the Bravo.
 
1RTK1 said:
Steingar, you don't want to do it just to be able to say you did??
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No. I suspect I'm as ego driven as the next guy, but I just don't see the big challenge of landing on a wide long asphalt runway. I do have to keep myself away from short occluded runways, because I know I'll try to land it. That said, if I found myself with business at a Bravo I'd not hesitate to fly in. It's just that most of the places I go are far better served by smaller airports.
 
steingar said:
No. I suspect I'm as ego driven as the next guy, but I just don't see the big challenge of landing on a wide long asphalt runway. I do have to keep myself away from short occluded runways, because I know I'll try to land it. That said, if I found myself with business at a Bravo I'd not hesitate to fly in. It's just that most of the places I go are far better served by smaller airports.
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Occluded runway? Is that where warm and cold runways have collided?
 
bflynn said:
I don't fly in controlled airspace much. I'm ok with getting in and out of Class-C, but a question on class B - when does your clearance expire? Specifically, if I land and then request taxi for take off again, do I need a new clearance?

This will be done outside of a push period.
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As the question is written, your initial clearance into the Bravo space expires on landing.

But your takeoff clearance from the Bravo airport includes the Bravo Airspace clearance.


As others said, for a land, taxi back, take off operation, there might be better locations to do that.
 
I’ve never been “cleared into the bravo” while departing VFR from a Bravo.
 
DavidWhite said:
I’ve never been “cleared into the bravo” while departing VFR from a Bravo.
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Well, that is implied when you get a clearance from clearance delivery. Never did a land and taxi back for takeoff so I can’t answer that one.
 
I think Grant and Leslie did a stop and go or a stop and taxi back at O'Hare in the middle of the night. Might ask them what sort of clearance if any that they got.
 
I think JFK says no training flights are allowed. When I went there in a 172, we dropped off the pilot that flew down and I flew the plane back North.

It was a fun experience, but taxiing to the GA ramp took forever as did taxiing back to the runway.
 
I've done stop and goes at IAD (OK, it was close to midnight). The clearance was pretty much, "Sure, go ahead." Departure instructions etc... aren't going to be a big issue at any time when they're going to allow you to do this.
 
The intention is to get experience flying, land at a class-B and get comfortable doing it - Charlotte specifically.

Landing time should be about 5:30 Saturday evening if you want some entertainment on LiveATC, tail# 64TZ. I'll try to call the tower tonight or tomorrow and verify how they want this done.
 
bflynn said:
Landing time should be about 5:30 Saturday evening if you want some entertainment on LiveATC, tail# 64TZ. I'll try to call the tower tonight or tomorrow and verify how they want this done.
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You might want to check the information on landing fees for the airport. When I landed at JFK, there was a busy time in the evening where the landing fees skyrocketed. We ended up going mid-day (if I remember right) as that was a quieter time at the airport and had a lower landing fee.
 
bflynn said:
The intention is to get experience flying, land at a class-B and get comfortable doing it - Charlotte specifically.

Landing time should be about 5:30 Saturday evening if you want some entertainment on LiveATC, tail# 64TZ. I'll try to call the tower tonight or tomorrow and verify how they want this done.
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For Charlotte, you might also want to look at their slow time online document.
 
Yup. 5:25-6 is a slow period and the planned landing time. Verified with the arrivals board at CLT website.
 
Truthfully, a Bravo doesn’t operate any differently than a Charlie procedure wise, other than having to receive a specific clearance to enter the airspace. You would still use the same protocol for departure, ie., CD, Ground, Tower and Tracon etc. Let them know what your intentions are, just like you would at a Charlie and if able they should grant it to you.
 
bflynn said:
The intention is to get experience flying, land at a class-B and get comfortable doing it - Charlotte specifically.
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And why exactly would it be any different than an active class C?

Put me in Steingar's boat. I see no reason to ever go to an active class B except for ego or if you have business in the immediate area.

There are exceptions, of course. Kansas City being one. They beg for GA traffic because they are dead.

But, when you fly your little single engine spam can into Charlotte, that 737 pilot won't look over at you and think to himself, "Being a pilot carries with it a level of prestige and accomplishment. Saying "I'm a pilot" is a fairly prestigious thing which most people regard as esoteric and relatively impressive. It's sort of an elite thing you have to earn your way into. AND THAT BOY RIGHT THERE HAS EARNED HIS WAY INTO IT!!"
 
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Memphis is also pretty dead (outside the overnight FedEx push), so is Cincinnati, Cleveland as well.
 
Just tell them what you'd like to do, be considerate and don't try to do it when it's super busy.

Personally it seems like too much work for the very limited reward, but to each their own.

timwinters said:
But, when you fly your little single engine spam can into Charlotte, that 737 pilot won't look over at you and think to himself, "Being a pilot carries with it a level of prestige and accomplishment. Saying "I'm a pilot" is a fairly prestigious thing which most people regard as esoteric and relatively impressive. It's sort of an elite thing you have to earn your way into. AND THAT BOY RIGHT THERE HAS EARNED HIS WAY INTO IT!!"
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Lol, not sure I'd say that, heck I've had a few larger airliner people compliment me at the local class C when I taxied by in my amphib

Also in my experience having 20,000hrs flying backcountry/floats is waaaaay more impressive than 20,000hrs built flying long haul in a heavy straight and level in the flight levels.
 
timwinters said:
Put me in Steingar's boat. I see no reason to ever go to an active class B except for ego or if you have business in the immediate area.
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Well gosh, then I guess I should just stay home and never fly into a class-B ever. I go in and out of RDU infrequently. Seriously, I've never flown to a class-B, I find it intimidating and I want to fix that. So I'm trying to pick out a good time when I'm unlikely to have an impact and eventually for it to be nothing unusual. Taking someone with me who flies in more controlled airspace.

I did check out landing fees. Everything I see says no landing fees. At CLT they are worked into the airlines lease schedules and are based on usage of airport facilities, then expressed as cost per thousand pounds. The example fee for a moderately sized airline was 92 cents/1000 lbs...assuming I had the same rate, it would be $2.24 for me.

Hmmm...maybe that's how FBOs should prices things, at a cost per 1000 lbs of max landing weight.
 
bflynn said:
Well gosh, then I guess I should just stay home and never fly into a class-B ever. I go in and out of RDU infrequently. Seriously, I've never flown to a class-B, I find it intimidating and I want to fix that. So I'm trying to pick out a good time when I'm unlikely to have an impact and eventually for it to be nothing unusual. Taking someone with me who flies in more controlled airspace.
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Heck, you should just stay home and never fly into any towered airport. Don't pay attention to those naysayers who are either (a) to blase or (b) too intimidated. The CLT experience will be good. Even at slow time you can expect more traffic that at RDU, a pretty quiet Class C for the most part.
 
There is an inaccurate assumption that a pilot must and only hear “cleared into Bravo” to enter or fly Bravo VFR. You only need to receive an explicit “clearance” and that can take several forms...of which a takeoff clearance is one of them.

There is no further clearance needed departing from a Bravo airport.
 
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The Bravo goes to the surface. So if you're allowed to have your plane at the airport, you're in the Bravo already and therefore there's no need to hear any words to the effect of being cleared into it.

Having done all my flight training and operating out of non-towered airports, I understand the mental hurdle of getting in and about different class airspace. But, I just kept using flight following and never let landing at a towered airport deter me from going where I want to go and that hurdle was cleared. I'm flying out of an airport underneath a Bravo now and although I always have a backup plan if NOT cleared into the airspace, my intent is to go through it to get where I want to go.

Of course understanding the arrival and departure routes and most likely scenarios certainly helps the situation. Know where traffic is supposed to be and know where you most likely won't be allowed (and when) and negotiating busy "big" airspace is much easier to comprehend and fly through.

Good luck!
 
My instructor took me to BWI for a T-N-G during my training. I came in from the north and had to circle the airport to land. I must have talked to five controllers. I do remember getting the initial clearance into B but that was the last time it was mentioned.
 
I'm with @bflynn. Our nearby Bravo (KMSP) seems intimidating and I think landing there once would be a great learning experience. I wouldn't do it alone though the first time. I'd want another pilot or instructor to help with radio work and verifying correct runway and taxiways. I wish I could try it during the day but I suspect KMSP might only want this activity after 11pm. I would of course call them in advance to set it up.

Any time I mention this to a pilot or instructor they always say "Just do a T&G, do not full stop." I ask why and don't get much detail after that. So are they parroting or sharing experience?

For me I see the following areas being high stress / but also great learning areas:

1.) Talking with approach and actually getting into the Bravo airspace
2.) Dealing with a succession of frequencies until finally landed
3.) Getting the runway right, especially at night with so much lighting
4.) Complex taxiing back for another takeoff and the subsequent radio work to do so.

...at this point with every one of my recent flights having FF and now several clearances into the Bravo for transitions, #1 above is no longer intimidating. But 2-4 are hard to get anywhere other than a Bravo. I know my HR will be cranked even with ATP riding along.
 
ejensen said:
Colorado Springs was bright enough hard to imagine Denver.
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I did my night cross country to LZU on the outskirts of Atlanta and I was hunting for that airport in the sea of lights for a long time.
 
How's this. I've landed CMH on a number of occasions because I had business there. I recently read that CMH is the busiest airport in Ohio, with more operations than Cleveland or Cincinnati. So what's so special about these Bravos? I've already landed a busier Charlie. I don't worry about them, the only worry I have is keeping away from the jets and their wake turbulence.

I worry way more about landing a strip like 6Y9. Short and occluded, and I don't think anyone told those trees to stop growing at 50 feet. That's a challenge, and I doubt I'd pass it up despite the very obvious worries to my airframe. And that right there is my ego at work.
 
steingar said:
How's this. I've landed CMH on a number of occasions because I had business there. I recently read that CMH is the busiest airport in Ohio, with more operations than Cleveland or Cincinnati. So what's so special about these Bravos? I've already landed a busier Charlie. I don't worry about them, the only worry I have is keeping away from the jets and their wake turbulence.

I worry way more about landing a strip like 6Y9. Short and occluded, and I don't think anyone told those trees to stop growing at 50 feet. That's a challenge, and I doubt I'd pass it up despite the very obvious worries to my airframe. And that right there is my ego at work.
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CLE used to be a hub for Continental
CVG used to be a hub for NWA

They were, at one time, both much, much busier than Columbus. They should really be demoted to Class C, but hell the FAA still has protected airspace for now non-existent approach around an airport that's been closed longer than I've been flying. So expect them to get demoted sometime never.
 
EdFred said:
CLE used to be a hub for Continental
CVG used to be a hub for NWA

They were, at one time, both much, much busier than Columbus. They should really be demoted to Class C, but hell the FAA still has protected airspace for now non-existent approach around an airport that's been closed longer than I've been flying. So expect them to get demoted sometime never.
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Can't disagree at all. I was just saying that there's nothing all that magic about landing there. Big long wide runways, I just don't see it as a challenge. Picket Grooms is a challenge I should pass up, I am not convinced my skills are up to bringing a Mooney in there. Only one way to find out...
 
CVG used to be a hub for NWA
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It was a huge (second largest behind Atlanta) for Delta. By the time Delta got around to absorbing the FanBelt airline, they'd greatly decreased the presence at CVG (and sucked what life NW was providing as well).

I remember one time getting diverted on an airliner to CVG. This woman behind me is going "Ohio, I don't want to go to Ohio."

I told her I had even worse news. This isn't even Ohio, CVG is in Kentucky.
 
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