Talk Me Out of Speed

GaryP1007 said:
If I could get the Dakota to 145kts, then I would be closer to 150kts, which would make me feel like 160kts was no big deal, until I realized that some Mooneys can do 170+kts..............see, I needed therapy.
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Speed mods are usually a losing battle if you're actually looking for a significant bump in speed, which is really what you need to have those trips be more reasonable. Now, if the upgrade is out of reach financially then they can be worthwhile. I put a lot of work into making the 310 faster with good results, and really very little monetary expense relative to the gains. For the length of trips we do, the 310 was still too slow (even as a 185-197 KT plane), but an upgrade wasn't feasible at the time. Then we were able to work and justify the upgrade to the 414 (which really isn't enough faster to be noticeable), and then the MU-2 opportunity arose (THAT will be noticeably faster). Point being, there's a lot of ways to skin the cat. Mission wise, you can definitely justify faster, the finances are the next part.

A Dakota vs. an appropriate year Bo or 6-cylinder Mooney will have a very noticeable speed difference. Dakota vs. Bo price wise, you should be able to find a 520-powered Bo for similar cost to do a lateral trade. If you can afford to sink more money into the capital cost, then the options definitely open up.

SR22 is another option if that's something that's potentially within the finances.

GaryP1007 said:
Thinking thats a mistake that would only make once.
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Made it 0 times, aim to keep it that way.
 
Fast enough is always faster than I’m going. Unless I’m behind the airplane.
 
Dude... just get the Mooney. There will be no talking you out of it. Every time you fly the Dakota, you'll be wishing it were just a few knots faster. You've fallen for the siren's call of speed and performance.

Fait accompli, Dude.
 
ironnerd said:
Dude... just get the Mooney. There will be no talking you out of it. Every time you fly the Dakota, you'll be wishing it were just a few knots faster. You've fallen for the siren's call of speed and performance.

Fait accompli, Dude.
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But then he'll wish the Mooney was a few knots faster and have to get a turbo, then he'll be annoyed with using Oxygen and have to get something pressurized, then it really makes sense to get a turboprop, and if you're burning Jet-A then he may as well just get a jet. Soon he's standing on the street corner with a sign "Will work for Jet-A"
 
chartbundle said:
But then he'll wish the Mooney was a few knots faster and have to get a turbo, then he'll be annoyed with using Oxygen and have to get something pressurized, then it really makes sense to get a turboprop, and if you're burning Jet-A then he may as well just get a jet. Soon he's standing on the street corner with a sign "Will work for Jet-A"
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Yes! Thank you for understanding.
 
ironnerd said:
Dude... just get the Mooney. There will be no talking you out of it. Every time you fly the Dakota, you'll be wishing it were just a few knots faster. You've fallen for the siren's call of speed and performance.

Fait accompli, Dude.
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There is only one "Dude".....

 
chartbundle said:
But then he'll wish the Mooney was a few knots faster and have to get a turbo, then he'll be annoyed with using Oxygen and have to get something pressurized, then it really makes sense to get a turboprop, and if you're burning Jet-A then he may as well just get a jet. Soon he's standing on the street corner with a sign "Will work for Jet-A"
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But unless he buys the Mooney, we'll never know for sure. :)

Mooney's a nice plane but a little tight, and not so much fun to work on. Have you considered other planes, or did the backwards tail get you?
 
jsstevens said:
Fast enough is always faster than I’m going. Unless I’m behind the airplane.
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coloradobluesky said:
Trouble is, there is ALWAYS a faster airplane.....
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The real question for me is how much speed do you need to actually transform your travel.

To give a recent example, when talking with the previous owner of the MU-2 about the plane and the speed, I said it would really be transformative for Cloud Nine. This is in a couple of ways. Right now, when I do a standard "milk run", it takes the full weekend. Day 1 is KS -> TX -> CA (or New England), and day 2 is back home. With the time zone difference from CA back home, even with a 5:30 AM wheels up time it's mid to late afternoon by the time I get home. So I lose an entire weekend with the family 1-2x a month doing Cloud Nine trips. That's hard on the family (and me). I've done the trips with one day to Texas and the 2nd day TX -> CA (or New England) and back home, but that makes for a really, really long second day. Legally we can do it (part 91) but it's not a great idea.

With the MU-2 and an extra 50-60 KTAS in cruise (plus the better climb rate, faster speed in climb, etc.) it'll make doing day 1 to Texas and day 2 TX -> one of the coasts -> home completely doable time wise. So now instead of losing an entire weekend with the family, I can leave work a little early on a Friday and be home Saturday evening, get all of Sunday. That means I can do trips without giving up all that family time, which means I can do more trips because the travel becomes easier to fit in with other items. And when you look at the $/mile, on paper the MU-2 will be similar to the 414 (a lot of people have reported that the MU-2 is actually cheaper, but we'll see).

Depending on how far you're flying and how often will determine how much speed, range, space, etc. will actually make enough of a difference to transform what you can do. You have to look at the mission and budget to determine.
 
I own a PA32 so I'm really spoiled with the room to stretch out. She's a fixed gear bird but LOP (14.5 gph) I can still make 148-150 knots TAS. I've flown a few times in a Mooney as a pax and was shocked at how tight it was. I felt so dang cramped. I'm not a big guy at all (5'8" / 170) and it's just tight.

Your mission means a ton. You mentioned you do take quite a few flights that are pretty good distance. Are those solo? What pax and how often? Consider your physical stature / size.

I have a wife and 3 kids that fly with me often. Having 1400 useful is nice, even if I fly solo at times. Plane is still a joy to fly.
 
arkvet said:
I own a PA32 so I'm really spoiled with the room to stretch out. She's a fixed gear bird but LOP (14.5 gph) I can still make 148-150 knots TAS. I've flown a few times in a Mooney as a pax and was shocked at how tight it was. I felt so dang cramped. I'm not a big guy at all (5'8" / 170) and it's just tight.

Your mission means a ton. You mentioned you do take quite a few flights that are pretty good distance. Are those solo? What pax and how often? Consider your physical stature / size.

I have a wife and 3 kids that fly with me often. Having 1400 useful is nice, even if I fly solo at times. Plane is still a joy to fly.
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Usually the longer flights are with my wife and sometimes with a son and his gf. I like that you said the plane “is a joy to fly” because I do feel that about the Dakota too.
 
mscard88 said:
Hey Chief, I've flown Bonanzas and like 'em, actually any sucky airplanes. send any unwanted ones to me.
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Never said I didn't want 'em, only that flying them sucked less than not flying at all. Flying them also sucks less than flying airplanes that suck more, which in turn still sucks less than not flying at all...which sucks about the same as flying a desk.
 
Like most, I wouldn't talk you out of speed. But it really depends on where you are and your mission. My 200 KT airplane was great when I lived in the midwest because I could cover my typical missions (NYC, Chicago, Missouri, Florida, Montana, Bahamas) pretty efficiently. Most were 2-4 hour flights with some stretching to 5-7 hours but all were comfortably done in a day or less. Now that I have moved to SoCal and my destinations haven't really changed, my piston plane isn't very practical. NYC in 8.5 hours there and 11 hours back? No thanks!

So now I'm looking at small jets... Sigh.
 
Mission, smission.

Buy fast, fly ass off. Hahaha. If you can afford it.

I can’t. So I’ll stick with the slow 182.

That Mooney is calling. LOL. Get ‘er done. :)

I’m just in a **** and vinegar mood tonight. I want to go flying. I have to wait until next week at the earliest. And then there’s probably a checkride coming soon.

That all sucks.

Fly fast. Go. Enjoy. My words of false wisdom to anyone who wants a faster airplane. Hahaha. At least for the moment.

Missions and responsible purchases? Nah. Go buy it. Hahahaha. :)

I’ll happily be the little devil on your shoulder and spend your money tonight. Ha.
 
RudyP said:
So now I'm looking at small jets... Sigh.
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Give me a M!
Give me a U!
Give me a S!
Give me a T!
Give me a A!
Give me a N!
Give me a G!

What does that spell?
Indentured Servitude:)
But at least you will be happy disposing of the disposable income! And it wouldn't be just for you! It's for the family! Save the children from the horrors of unpressurized reciprocating travel...
 
COL4Driver said:
Give me a M!
Give me a U!
Give me a S!
Give me a T!
Give me a A!
Give me a N!
Give me a G!

What does that spell?
Indentured Servitude:)
But at least you will be happy disposing of the disposable income! And it wouldn't be just for you! It's for the family! Save the children from the horrors of unpressurized reciprocating travel...
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How about you and I work it out? You're already a Cessna guy! 3 TTXs and 1/2 a Mustang is the way to go!

Between the two of us we can have 5 airplanes!
 
GaryP1007 said:
OK, I need a therapy session. I have been flying a Dakota for about 10 years now. Nice plane, well maintained and it has always been good to me.

I seem to always want more speed. I flight plan at 137 kts in the Dakota. I love the idea of 160+ in a Mooney but I am not sure that ditching the Dakota for a Mooney makes sense. Obviously useful load decreases considerably etc. etc. etc.

Can you help me convince myself that another 20-25 kts won't matter?
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It won't, but if you're bent on buying another plane, that doesn't have the same cockpit width that your current plane has , for a marginal increase in speed, and that you're thoroughly comfortable flying, then go for it. If you're married, your wife can have all the clothes and shoes and any care she wants though. Same diff.
 
asicer said:
Add in ~30 minutes to each number for startup, taxi, run-up, takeoff, departure procedure, climb, pattern entry, landing, more taxi and shutdown and the percentage difference gets even smaller.
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True.

But since you are coming up with additional details that affect time, we might as well recognize that the percentage difference generally gets bigger due to wind. Headwinds cost more minutes than tailwinds save, and that situation worsens with a slower plane.
 
SbestCFII said:
It won't, but if you're bent on buying another plane, that doesn't have the same cockpit width that your current plane has , for a marginal increase in speed, and that you're thoroughly comfortable flying, then go for it. If you're married, your wife can have all the clothes and shoes and any care she wants though. Same diff.
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You are a good friend. Lol.
 
I’ve heard the argument many times regarding bigger fuel tanks being the biggest factor on making faster trips. While I agree in theory I just find that 4 hours of fuel (3+1 hour reserve) is about the most I’m going to need and remain comfortable. Now if I’m solo or am lucky with one other adult pax we might stretch beyond that 3 hour leg but most of my longer cross countries are with the wife and kids when the size of my fuel tanks always far exceed the size of pax bladders (relatively speaking).

Nothing wrong with the Mooney. However there are trade offs in getting that extra speed. I like speed too, but I also like to be comfortable.

Here’s a pic from a beach trip. Do you think the ladies in the back would trade those seats for a sardine can to shave off 10-15 minutes on the beach trip? And note myself and my copilot are having to lean in to get in the pic. Comfort matters.
946432D9-58A0-4F84-8E82-3D301B1C714F.jpeg
 
arkvet said:
I’ve heard the argument many times regarding bigger fuel tanks being the biggest factor on making faster trips. While I agree in theory I just find that 4 hours of fuel (3+1 hour reserve) is about the most I’m going to need and remain comfortable. Now if I’m solo or am lucky with one other adult pax we might stretch beyond that 3 hour leg but most of my longer cross countries are with the wife and kids when the size of my fuel tanks always far exceed the size of pax bladders (relatively speaking).

Nothing wrong with the Mooney. However there are trade offs in getting that extra speed. I like speed too, but I also like to be comfortable.

Here’s a pic from a beach trip. Do you think the ladies in the back would trade those seats for a sardine can to shave off 10-15 minutes on the beach trip? And note myself and my copilot are having to lean in to get in the pic. Comfort matters.
View attachment 60395
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What is it that you are flying?
 
For 4 - 5 people we pull the empty club seats. The plane will nearly haul that same stuff my suburban can haul with equal comfort. We even take our beach chairs and umbrellas.
 
arkvet said:
For 4 - 5 people we pull the empty club seats. The plane will nearly haul that same stuff my suburban can haul with equal comfort. We even take our beach chairs and umbrellas.
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What do you cruise at?
 
arkvet said:
For 4 - 5 people we pull the empty club seats. The plane will nearly haul that same stuff my suburban can haul with equal comfort. We even take our beach chairs and umbrellas.
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the only reason I sold mine....the wife didn't want to go. They are the ultimate +4 person traveling machine.;)
 
GaryP1007 said:
What do you cruise at?
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148 knots TAS between 6-10k. LOP @ 14.5gph.
150 knots is achievable at 16-17gpg. Not worth the extra fuel burn to hit the 150 mark.

1400 useful.

If a kid or two is in the mix it is truly a 6 place plane. Or just about any 4 adults without much concern over W&B
 
inter014talladeganight.jpg
 
I bought the Mooney because I knew it was the most speed that I could afford (and still have a back seat to schlep Mrs. Steingar's ****). Lots of options if one can afford more. I wish I could.
 
GaryP1007 said:
How about a Turbo Arrow? Any real gains?
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No. You'll be cruising about the same as you do in your Dakota.

Seriously - if you can't get 170+ out of it, don't bother.
 
chartbundle said:
But then he'll wish the Mooney was a few knots faster and have to get a turbo, then he'll be annoyed with using Oxygen and have to get something pressurized, then it really makes sense to get a turboprop, and if you're burning Jet-A then he may as well just get a jet. Soon he's standing on the street corner with a sign "Will work for Jet-A"
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Sounds like me....
 
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