Talk me out of building a Van's RV

SoCal RV Flyer said:
I HAD to have a slider canopy, so that ruled out the 14 entirel
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Can you elaborate on that a bit? I am leaning toward a tip-up for the visibility but I’m all ears on this decision.
 
iamtheari said:
Can you elaborate on that a bit? I am leaning toward a tip-up for the visibility but I’m all ears on this decision.
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You'll be happy with either. There is plenty of discussion in the archives over at VAF to see all of the rationalizations around canopy choice. Ultimately, you never hear a slider owner complaining about his s choice, same with tip-up owners.
 
iamtheari said:
Can you elaborate on that a bit? I am leaning toward a tip-up for the visibility but I’m all ears on this decision.
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The biggest factor for me was ventilation on hot California summer days. I'll typically slide it all the way back once I'm clear of the runway. You can rest your elbow on the sill as you taxi, just like your favorite convertible. :) Also, the slider has that sturdy roll bar up front, for better protection if you flip in an off-airport landing. That roll bar impedes vision, but not as much as you might think. Building the canopy, whether tip-up or slider, is one of the more challenging aspects of construction. I hear that it's considerably easier on the -14.

Here's a video of my first flight...gives a good idea of visibility.

watch
 
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Cool first flight video. You looked cool as a cucumber throughout the first flight, enjoyed watching it.
 
Oh yah... it gets hot in California. [chuckle]

Tippers in the Texas heat? Very survivable.

Visibility? great without that bar in the middle of your field of view.

Classic debates: high wing or low wing, nose wheel or tail dragger, tipper or slider.

The answer: Invariably. The one "I have" for the reasons "I say."
 
The question is, how much time are you willing to spend on your project and when do you want to fly your plane?

If you don’t mind, spending significant time (read: years) into finishing the RV, go for it. RVs are gorgeous planes!
 
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coloradobluesky said:
If you want to build an airplane to build an airplane, build an airplane. If you want an airplane to fly, buy one already built. With building, its the building of it thats the fun. You can buy someone elses RV if you what you want to do is to fly.
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Exactly. This is particularly true for a RV, which is a LOT of work to complete.
I would also question why the A&P wants to build the plane with you so badly? Is he maybe just looking for somebody as an assistant and to share the costs?

I have become a bit of a RV critic. While Van's makes undoubtedly beautiful, very nice flying aircraft, they seem to rest quite a bit on their laurels. My wife and I are for example close to finishing a RV-10 empennage kit and found quite a few areas which could be easily improved by the factory (think bending trim tabs or the use of solid rived in super hard to access areas in the elevator, where pop rivets would suffice), but where Van's just doesn't care, because their kits sell great anyways. Van's machinery also appears pretty outdated, the latest kits from RANS, Sling and even Zenith are much nicer machined than the RV kits.

Personally, I know one person who finished a RV-9A, two guys who are working on a RV-9 and a RV-8, but also four persons who entirely abandoned two RV-10s and two RV-7s. IMHO not a great ratio.

I would guess that less than half of the RV kits get finished by the original buyer. People buy them because of the "RV-grin", because of the hype and because of the good looks, but fail to understand that they are a lot of work to complete and that building them can be a very frustrating experience, particularly if no second person is available to assist with riveting.

Our friend, who finished the RV-9A, worked on it on most evenings and weekends, for 6 years. He built it from a slow build kit.

Don't get me wrong - I am not opposing RVs, but want to add some perspective to building them. Even with two persons working full time on it and a quick build kit, I doubt that a RV-9 could be finished in less than a year with a decent build quality.
 
Does the RV-9 have any aerobatic capability?
What about the RV-14?

What are the differences between the -9 and -14?
 
I'm a -10 builder. You have to love building, otherwise you will not finish. However if you have help, it will go much more quickly! The emp kits are cheap, try it out. You'll know when your done with that if your a builder type or not.
Vans has disclosed that their completion rate is close to 1/3
 
G-Man said:
Does the RV-9 have any aerobatic capability?
What about the RV-14?

What are the differences between the -9 and -14?
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RV-9 is not rated for aerobatics. The Rv-14 is a scaled up version of the rv-7 with the latest and greatest kit design and manual.
 
Ravioli said:
Oh yah... it gets hot in California. [chuckle]
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I consider 115 degrees F to be pretty hot! :D A dry heat though. :)
mscard88 said:
Cool first flight video. You looked cool as a cucumber throughout the first flight, enjoyed watching it.
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Thanks....I guess I didn't show the nerves, but that first flight was a gut check extraordinaire. Lots running through my head of what could possibly go wrong. I did a lot of scouting around the airport looking for places to set 'er down if I had an issue.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
I consider 115 degrees F to be pretty hot! :D A dry heat though. :)


Thanks....I guess I didn't show the nerves, but that first flight was a gut check extraordinaire. Lots running through my head of what could possibly go wrong. I did a lot of scouting around the airport looking for places to set 'er down if I had an issue.
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I can only imagine. I'd be nervous as hell, especially if I built the damn thing. But now look at what you have! Happy landings!
 
Winners buy/build RVs. All you need to know. Two types of people in the world: winners and losers. Your choice.

:stirpot:
 
German guy said:
Exactly. This is particularly true for a RV, which is a LOT of work to complete.
I would also question why the A&P wants to build the plane with you so badly? Is he maybe just looking for somebody as an assistant and to share the costs?

I have become a bit of a RV critic. While Van's makes undoubtedly beautiful, very nice flying aircraft, they seem to rest quite a bit on their laurels. My wife and I are for example close to finishing a RV-10 empennage kit and found quite a few areas which could be easily improved by the factory (think bending trim tabs or the use of solid rived in super hard to access areas in the elevator, where pop rivets would suffice), but where Van's just doesn't care, because their kits sell great anyways. Van's machinery also appears pretty outdated, the latest kits from RANS, Sling and even Zenith are much nicer machined than the RV kits.

Personally, I know one person who finished a RV-9A, two guys who are working on a RV-9 and a RV-8, but also four persons who entirely abandoned two RV-10s and two RV-7s. IMHO not a great ratio.

I would guess that less than half of the RV kits get finished by the original buyer. People buy them because of the "RV-grin", because of the hype and because of the good looks, but fail to understand that they are a lot of work to complete and that building them can be a very frustrating experience, particularly if no second person is available to assist with riveting.

Our friend, who finished the RV-9A, worked on it on most evenings and weekends, for 6 years. He built it from a slow build kit.

Don't get me wrong - I am not opposing RVs, but want to add some perspective to building them. Even with two persons working full time on it and a quick build kit, I doubt that a RV-9 could be finished in less than a year with a decent build quality.
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This is precisely what I'm looking for. Reasons both ways so I can make an informed decision.

I think that the A&P wants to build the plane with me for a few reasons. He misses building airplanes. He wants to own a nice plane but he's a younger guy so this is an opportunity to use what he has (skills and time) in lieu of something that young people don't have (money) to get a nice plane. I'm probably also a desirable airplane partner because I care about keeping it maintained properly and I fly enough to feel good doing that, not like some co-owners who hate to spend a penny on a plane they don't use enough. He's a desirable airplane partner because he's an A&P.
 
denverpilot said:
Build: You build it for years, then you buy it an engine., then you fly it.

Buy: You fly it for years, then you buy it an engine, then you fly it some more.

Your call. LOL!

You asked us to talk you out of it.
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I didn't think you'd try so hard! :)
 
FORANE said:
I heard that vans was planning a price increase so if you are going to do it you might not want to delay.
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like most companies, the price does go up. the big price increase that you are talking about is for 3,4, and 6 kits. as they are being somewhat phased out.
 
I had a guy tell me that if had spent that much time as a carpenter he could have built a house.
 
first I say build a 4, but im biased. here is my take on the 7 vs 9. van designed the 9 as a low power option, his motor of choice on it was the o-235. as builders do the first thing that happened was people started putting 320's and 360's on them. I really think that defeats the purpose of the airplane. plus the rectangle horizontal does not look as good as the tapered horizontal of the 7. if you are leaning towards the bigger engine then just build the 7. the 7 is no harder to fly than the 9,they are both very easy to fly aircraft and with the 7 you get to go upside down.
bob
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
The biggest factor for me was ventilation on hot California summer days. I'll typically slide it all the way back once I'm clear of the runway. You can rest your elbow on the sill as you taxi, just like your favorite convertible. :) Also, the slider has that sturdy roll bar up front, for better protection if you flip in an off-airport landing. That roll bar impedes vision, but not as much as you might think. Building the canopy, whether tip-up or slider, is one of the more challenging aspects of construction. I hear that it's considerably easier on the -14.

Here's a video of my first flight...gives a good idea of visibility.

watch
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Nice video, and grin at the end. "It flies!"
 
I faced this dilemma back in 2014, after getting my first flight in an RV-8.

Five nanoseconds later, I was looking for an already-built RV. lol

I based this decision on three sorry facts:

1. Of three friends who purchased RV kits, all three ended up selling them partially built.

2. I don't have time to fly as much as I want -- or play with my cars, or read books, for that matter. What makes me think I will have time to build an airplane?

3. It can be over 90 degrees in my hangar from April to October. Does that sound fun?

In the end I hired an outstanding guy out of Minnesota to help me find a stellar RV-8A. His entire business is finding quality pre-built RVs for guys like us. PM me if you would like his contact into -- he's a one-stop-shop, from pre-buy to transition training.

We've flown Amelia almost 500 hours in the last 3 years. :)

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk
 
Jay Honeck said:
1. Of three friends who purchased RV kits, all three ended up selling them partially built.
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Bad reason. It was just said above that 1/3 of people complete their kits. What are the odds that your three friends AND you wouldn't finish? ;)

Jay Honeck said:
2. I don't have time to fly as much as I want -- or play with my cars, or read books, for that matter. What makes me think I will have time to build an airplane?
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That's a better reason. I wouldn't do this alone. If I want to spend time alone, I have more affordable hobbies for that.
 
CC268 said:
Winners buy/build RVs. All you need to know. Two types of people in the world: winners and losers. Your choice.

:stirpot:
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That winner can build his RV-6 and I'll be the loser blowing by him in a Glasair on less hp. Yes, RV bashing thread!:eek:
 
unsafervguy said:
first I say build a 4, but im biased. here is my take on the 7 vs 9. van designed the 9 as a low power option, his motor of choice on it was the o-235. as builders do the first thing that happened was people started putting 320's and 360's on them. I really think that defeats the purpose of the airplane. plus the rectangle horizontal does not look as good as the tapered horizontal of the 7. if you are leaning towards the bigger engine then just build the 7. the 7 is no harder to fly than the 9,they are both very easy to fly aircraft and with the 7 you get to go upside down.
bob
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If you take the dual time out of my OP above, it comes down that I spend 54% of my flight time with one passenger, 44% alone, and 2% with more than one passenger. That first number is too high to build a tandem or one-seat plane. Otherwise the 4 and/or 8 would definitely be on the table. I do get to fly center-line in the J-3, so at least I'm not totally deprived of that. Thanks for explaining the 9.
 
Velocity173 said:
Fights on! RV vs Glasair.

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Wow that looks so sketchy lol...almost hit the guy once. For some reason I thought Glasairs weren’t aerobatic capable. Are the glass airs as cramped in the knee area as Lancairs?
 
CC268 said:
Wow that looks so sketchy lol...almost hit the guy once. For some reason I thought Glasairs weren’t aerobatic capable. Are the glass airs as cramped in the knee area as Lancairs?
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Yep. I've sat in a G3 though and there was plenty of room. 1s and 2s, not so much.
 
Wow those G3s are pricey used
 
Anymouse said:
Sez the guy who's name is Velocity. :frown2:

My Tango will whiz by those RVs as well. :cornut:
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Well my Velocity is a bit slower so it would probably "loose" to an RV. :(

Me likes Tangos though. Like to get one one of those XRs, start in the NW, go high and see if I could make the east coast!
 
unsafervguy said:
first I say build a 4, but im biased. here is my take on the 7 vs 9. van designed the 9 as a low power option, his motor of choice on it was the o-235. as builders do the first thing that happened was people started putting 320's and 360's on them. I really think that defeats the purpose of the airplane. plus the rectangle horizontal does not look as good as the tapered horizontal of the 7. if you are leaning towards the bigger engine then just build the 7. the 7 is no harder to fly than the 9,they are both very easy to fly aircraft and with the 7 you get to go upside down.
bob
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A 320 doesn't defeat the purpose of the -9; it enhances it. If you've got an 0-235 lying around waiting for an airframe, sure, why not? It'll fly fine. But I wanted something a bit faster. 155 KTAS at 8.0 gph isn't scorching, but quick enough to make it a very viable cross-country mount. It has a Roncz airfoil that's very efficient up high, if you like flying at 14,000 ft with oxygen (ceiling on a 320-powered -9 is 24,500 ft.)

Aesthetics played a part in choosing the -9 as well. I'm not interested in aerobatics, and the high-aspect longer wings just look better-proportioned to my eye than the stubby wings of the -6,-7, et al. Other factors for me: 39 KIAS dirty stall speed, less sensitive controls (though it's still very much a fingertip-control airplane, with pushrod linkages to ailerons and elevator), Van's support, VAF website and the fact it's a proven design with 1000 or so of them flying. For me, side-by-side seating was a must too...it makes flights with a passenger a lot more enjoyable, and doesn't change the cg as much.

The satisfaction you get from flying something you've built can't be understated. The best part of construction by far was designing my panel...picking the EFIS, deciding on location of switches, labeling and backup gauges, wiring the whole shebang myself....and having everything work when I flipped the master switch for the first time.
 
If you like making stuff and enjoy the process of turning a stack of lumber into a deck, then build. If you like to fly, buy an already finished plane.
I wouldn't buy the entire kit. With 2/3 of the kits never finished, there is no shortage of 'wing kits' that can be bought for pennies on the dollar.
I'll build one about 5 years before I retire. That way I have a plane that I can wrench on myself and fly on a limited budget.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well my Velocity is a bit slower so it would probably "loose" to an RV. :(

Me likes Tangos though. Like to get one one of those XRs, start in the NW, go high and see if I could make the east coast!
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I took off out of Scappoose, OR (SPB) and landed at Little Rock, AR (LIT) 8.1 hours later. That included dropping down to size up a fire, and then climbing back up to report it. Still had 26 gallons of gas left, so I could have gone for a couple more hours, but there was a line of thunderstorms on the other side of Little Rock.

Oh yeah, I was at 15.5k at the time

From 2A2, I figure I can hit any of the four corners of the contiguous US on one bag of gas.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
The satisfaction you get from flying something you've built can't be understated.
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This, hands-down. And then each small step afterwards.

SoCal RV Flyer said:
I did a lot of scouting around the airport looking for places to set 'er down if I had an issue.
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Haha...I tried to overthink things by having off-airport landing sites picked out for every leg of my first few flights. My planning map looked like it had been shotgunned. Then before my first flight I went out and practiced and practiced and practiced. Thank goodness it was in pre-everyonesgotavideocamera times.

Nauga,
"1.5 southeast at 800, simulated engine out...again"
 
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