EppyGA
Touchdown! Greaser!
I don't want into the middle of this fight, but did anyone notice that in the picture that was posted there is no taxiway center line if you turn off in the reverse direction?
Taking the Reverse Highspeed
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jxdrl
Pre-takeoff checklist
There's a plane behind you.
Get off the runway as soon as safely practicable.
Number 1 - to be nice.
Number 2 - Go-arounds cost money.
Number 3 - Tower said expediate (right?).
If you want to quote the AIM (you did).
4-3-20. Exiting the Runway After Landing
The following procedures must be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.
a. Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by ATC. Pilots shall not exit the landing runway onto another runway unless authorized by ATC. At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval.
Obviously, your "buddy" did not do this to tower's liking and possiblity reversed course on the runway to make the nearest taxiway since he didn't land short enough, apply enough brakes, etc. etc.
And you can turn on to the reverse highspeed. It's gigantic. And I wholeheartedly agree with those controllers that say you are clear of the runway when you are past the white line. There's a tower for a reason. Now, you need to cross the yellow hold short line before calling Ground. It really is that simple.
The yellow line makes certain that the tail of your aircraft is not sticking out onto the runway where it could cause a problem.
Get off the runway as soon as safely practicable.
Number 1 - to be nice.
Number 2 - Go-arounds cost money.
Number 3 - Tower said expediate (right?).
If you want to quote the AIM (you did).
4-3-20. Exiting the Runway After Landing
The following procedures must be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.
a. Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by ATC. Pilots shall not exit the landing runway onto another runway unless authorized by ATC. At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval.
Obviously, your "buddy" did not do this to tower's liking and possiblity reversed course on the runway to make the nearest taxiway since he didn't land short enough, apply enough brakes, etc. etc.
And you can turn on to the reverse highspeed. It's gigantic. And I wholeheartedly agree with those controllers that say you are clear of the runway when you are past the white line. There's a tower for a reason. Now, you need to cross the yellow hold short line before calling Ground. It really is that simple.
The yellow line makes certain that the tail of your aircraft is not sticking out onto the runway where it could cause a problem.
Rex Kramer
Line Up and Wait
Say someone with a link to his website called "caphenning.com"? :wink2:
This ****storm of a thread has reached a near pointless level and I'm definitely not defending "captain" or his delivery. I have, however, seen several things that show one should not take the highspeed without permission or at least telling the local. I've seen it on the ATIS ("Do not use reverse highspeed for runway exit"), I've been denied the use of the reverse when I asked for it, and I have been given permission, both solicited and unsolicited, to use the reverse highspeed. I have heard the same for countless other aircraft. I have also heard a controller give a verbal lashing for using the reverse when not expected.
All this is referencing transport cat aircraft. There is a huge difference in time between exiting the forward highspeed at 40+kts vs basically stopping (less than 8kts or so) to turn and make the reverse. If another aircraft is tight in behind you, they'll be going around. It's not something the controller is expecting you to do and to do it without a headsup/permission is bad form.
It's also bad form to be a dick to the controller if you are given a phone number. I worked at ACA/IDE at the same time as "captain" and would love to know who got a month off for it.
Captain
Final Approach
Putting the popcorn down for a moment....
Why were both pilots violated? and is that normal / standard procedure to violate both crewmembers when one was actually flying and the other not controlling the aircraft?
Just curious....
Picking up the popcorn...
Not sure what 'standard' is. The FO was not violated, just got a letter that lasts for two years.
Captain
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RotorAndWing
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Light and Sporty Guy
So he had to unexpeditiously slow down a bunch more to make the (slow)sharp turn instead of the fast turn which ended up causing following traffic to go around which hacking off the tower who then got further hacked over the phone and decided to Bob Hoover him?
I'll buy it.
Yet another reason to avoid towered airports.
Um.... No.
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Captain
Final Approach
Ah, an Indy guy (pinky salute)
The guy busted wasn't at IDE. It's a company after IDE. BTW, the aircraft wasnt transport category either.
poadeleted20
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When Captain posts the details from the enforcement action, I'll have further comment. Until then...
:bye:
:bye:
Captain
Final Approach
I've posted all I know. I can't go digging for more.
If anybody want's to continue thinking there is no issue with exiting a landing runway on another runway or a reverse taxi way that's fine with me. I have no motive to lie about whats happened and enforcement actions and letters and whatnot but if you choose to believe whatever you want then you are free to do as you please.
fly safe
If anybody want's to continue thinking there is no issue with exiting a landing runway on another runway or a reverse taxi way that's fine with me. I have no motive to lie about whats happened and enforcement actions and letters and whatnot but if you choose to believe whatever you want then you are free to do as you please.
fly safe
Everskyward
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So will I. If this is what happened it would have been more expeditious to continue to the forward high-speed which was also in the same location since the airplane would have gotten there quicker without the need to slow down as much. We also don't know if the airplane passed the taxiway entrance to some degree and had to backtrack on the runway. Obviously, being an ass to the controller didn't help at all. That said, this would not indicate that there is a blanket prohibition against using the reverse high-speed without asking.
wabower
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This saga reminds me of the story about the story about the teacher asking Johnny why he was four hours late for school. Johnny's initial answer was "because Pappy slept nekkid last night."
When pressed for details and threatened with a trip to the principal's office, Johnny further explained that "about 3 this mornin', Pappy heared a noise in the hen-house and grabbed his 12-gauge to shoot the fox or skunk or whatever critter had stirred up the chickens. Our bird-dog Blue follered Pappy to the hen-house, and when Pappy bent down to peer around the corner, old Blue cold-nosed him. The reason I'm late is that we wuz pickin' chickens 'til noon."
When pressed for details and threatened with a trip to the principal's office, Johnny further explained that "about 3 this mornin', Pappy heared a noise in the hen-house and grabbed his 12-gauge to shoot the fox or skunk or whatever critter had stirred up the chickens. Our bird-dog Blue follered Pappy to the hen-house, and when Pappy bent down to peer around the corner, old Blue cold-nosed him. The reason I'm late is that we wuz pickin' chickens 'til noon."
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poadeleted20
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See if you can get at least a sanitized copy of the letter of investigation and/or notice of proposed action, as those would spell out the details of what actually happened and which regulation was violated.
Captain
Final Approach
I'm not going to be able to get any of that. I simply see no way to go to a guy and ask for a copy of his enforcement action wether it's sanitized or not.
As far as which reg was used to ground him I'm pretty sure it was the catch all 'careless and reckless' and 'deviating from an ATC clearance' that they got him on.
As far as which reg was used to ground him I'm pretty sure it was the catch all 'careless and reckless' and 'deviating from an ATC clearance' that they got him on.
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Greg Bockelman
I would think that would be public record.
Which indicates to me that taking the reverse high speed taxiway was NOT the underlying issue here.
I'm pretty sure we only need the guys name and the FAA website.
Captain
Final Approach
You're probably right. But I'm not going to take a friends incident and throw him under the bus. I've contacted the FO and if he wants to chime in he can and give his perspective. I'm not here to 'out' anyone.
Actually, it was the exact issue.
ATC clearance: "expedite off the runway"
Pilot action: reverse course by taking the reverse high speed turn off.
It's right there in the AIM that Cap'n Ron posted and I highlighted. Taking a reverse high speed is not an FAR. Not following an ATC clearance without declaring an emergency (or having an emergency) is.
I've noticed you have some connectivity issues. You connect a lot of things that aren't connected. The issue was not that he used the reverse, the issue is that in that particular application of using the reverse he caused an inordinate delay in defiance of an ATC request to expedite off (keep your speed up till you hit the high speed) off the runway.
Now what I'm still not clear on is that your buddy was FO-PNF, the CA was PF and did all this, why did your buddy get a rip? Something not adding up there.
Captain
Final Approach
I think I've been pretty clear through all six pages that ATC told him to expidite and they took the reverse. Time and time again I've said over and over tower told him to hurry up and they took a reverse and that's why he got busted.
I've also said he got lippy when he called and that's why (i think) tower passed it on to the FAA. The only connectivity issue is why you and a few others fail to connect what I post with words and meaning. I simply don't know how to make it any clearer.
Why did my PNF - FO buddy get busted too? Good question. I'll let him answer. Not trying to be smug, I simply don't understand it myself. But, the FAA does lot's of stuff I shake my head at, so add that to the list.
I've also said he got lippy when he called and that's why (i think) tower passed it on to the FAA. The only connectivity issue is why you and a few others fail to connect what I post with words and meaning. I simply don't know how to make it any clearer.
Why did my PNF - FO buddy get busted too? Good question. I'll let him answer. Not trying to be smug, I simply don't understand it myself. But, the FAA does lot's of stuff I shake my head at, so add that to the list.
Then why did you use that incident to defend this opening statement?
Reality is you sound like a bright 14 year old.
roncachamp
Final Approach
No, it isn't.
roncachamp
Final Approach
He doesn't sound very bright to me.
He just hasn't taken Algebra yet and he isn't exactly gifted at logic. He does a fair bit of reading but doesn't understand context and connection yet and that is all usually manifested by low intelligence or low experience.
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Captain
Final Approach
Yes, it is:
Why are you so rude? Is this how you get your kicks? This forum could be a pretty cool place for adults to share and discuss. It's pretty hard when every syllable I type get analyzed and poked over looking for any reason to disagree with it.
How about you just put me on your ignore list. I think we might both be happier.
wabower
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Wayne
Why do you continue to misinterpret and misapply a rule after it has been clarified over many pages that it doesn't apply as you are reading it?
He's being rude as am I because you are either a 14yo troll, or you are an airline captain who is a complete freaking moron and shouldn't be in the left seat of an airliner. Either way you bought yourself rude behavior as neither are greatly appreciated.
Captain
Final Approach
You're right. Maybe I should have instead said, "Everyone here knows that it's technically not correct to get off a runway at an intersecting runway or a reverse high speed exit without tower approval, right?"
I feel like we're splitting hairs, but if my amended quote makes you feel better then please consider that what I meant.
Again with the rudeness. Asserting knowledge of facts known to me when others tell me I'm wrong about what I know isn't rude. Calling people 'retarded' and a child is.
tonycondon
Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)
i skipped from page 2 to page 6. does any of the posts on page 3, 4, and 5 beat out the difference between should and shall?
RotorAndWing
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FWIW you will not find enforcement action records on a public website. At best you would have to do a FOIA request and even then there will be parts of it redacted.
And to clarify, there are public records accessible when the enforcement goes to the NTSB ALJ for hearing.
Interesting......
In my best Johnny Carson Voice.. " I did not know that"
So what if say, Wilber Wright applies for a job at XYZ airlines and on his application he writes he has never had any violations... The airline cannot double check that ?
Everskyward
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They can check, in fact they must, but not on a public website.Interesting......
In my best Johnny Carson Voice.. " I did not know that"
So what if say, Wilber Wright applies for a job at XYZ airlines and on his application he writes he has never had any violations... The airline cannot double check that ?
Howdy. New here. I wasn't going to join this forum, but I have been asked to post.
I was the FO for the event in question. This all happened about 3 year ago, so the letter is out of my file, but this all still rankles me. I will try to relate the events as best I can.
We were landing at IAD 19C, packed tight behind an airbus, and in front of some 121 turboprop. The PIC was flying, and briefed that we would go long to avoid the airbus's wake. On rollout, the tower told us to expedite off the runway, using the yankee highspeed. The PIC, wanting to get to Landmark, coasted up into the highspeed junction, and slowed to a crawl, or a stop, depending on who is right, me or the FAA. At the same time, he directed me to ask for the reverse.
As soon as I switched to ground, I was told in this sad voice, "get off the runway." I looked over the captain's shoulder and saw a turboprop going around. I told the captain that we had to get across the hold line, which is way up the highspeed. He again directed me to ask for the reverse, which I did. I was told again, "get off the runway." The PIC proceeded up the reverse, I copied down the phone number, and we taxied into Landmark. The pic called the tower, and proceeded to scream at them in no uncertain terms for packing the turboprop tight behind us. When he hung up, I begged him to eat a little crow, but when he called them back, he did the same thing.
Four months later, I was told I was not assertive enough, and given my two year letter. What fun. Maybe I should have tasered him.
I wish this was fiction. Unfortunately, it is not.
Gearbox
I was the FO for the event in question. This all happened about 3 year ago, so the letter is out of my file, but this all still rankles me. I will try to relate the events as best I can.
We were landing at IAD 19C, packed tight behind an airbus, and in front of some 121 turboprop. The PIC was flying, and briefed that we would go long to avoid the airbus's wake. On rollout, the tower told us to expedite off the runway, using the yankee highspeed. The PIC, wanting to get to Landmark, coasted up into the highspeed junction, and slowed to a crawl, or a stop, depending on who is right, me or the FAA. At the same time, he directed me to ask for the reverse.
As soon as I switched to ground, I was told in this sad voice, "get off the runway." I looked over the captain's shoulder and saw a turboprop going around. I told the captain that we had to get across the hold line, which is way up the highspeed. He again directed me to ask for the reverse, which I did. I was told again, "get off the runway." The PIC proceeded up the reverse, I copied down the phone number, and we taxied into Landmark. The pic called the tower, and proceeded to scream at them in no uncertain terms for packing the turboprop tight behind us. When he hung up, I begged him to eat a little crow, but when he called them back, he did the same thing.
Four months later, I was told I was not assertive enough, and given my two year letter. What fun. Maybe I should have tasered him.
I wish this was fiction. Unfortunately, it is not.
Gearbox
TMetzinger
Final Approach
Gearbox, thanks. So it sounds like:
The FAA dinged the captain for not expediting (as opposed to his choice of taxiway specifically) his exit from the runway. The choice of the reverse might have made it harder to expedite, or maybe not.
The FAA dinged you (unfairly in your opinion and mine at this point) for not being "assertive" enough and somehow magically getting the airplane off the runway.
That's my impression anyway.
The FAA dinged the captain for not expediting (as opposed to his choice of taxiway specifically) his exit from the runway. The choice of the reverse might have made it harder to expedite, or maybe not.
The FAA dinged you (unfairly in your opinion and mine at this point) for not being "assertive" enough and somehow magically getting the airplane off the runway.
That's my impression anyway.
That's correct. The tower's voice clearly carried the urgency of the situation, and so did ground's. To this day I can't figure out why the PIC didn't pick up on that. In retrospect, I should have reiterated that he should hurry up, but I thought the urgency of the situation was self evident.
poadeleted20
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So, thank you for the clarification, you have demonstrated that your situation is not derived from or an example of, "using the reverse high speed is not allowed without specific permission and if you do you'll get violated"; and is actually a situation that "If you do not follw ATCs instructions on which exit to use to clear the runway and then sit there and argue with them forcing another plane to go around and then cuss out ATC after not following their instructions, you'll get busted." In fact, if he had just kept rolling the damned plane on the reverse high speed and got clear there likely would have been no violation. How you took a violation I am still not clear on.
'Captain' you see where once again you made invalid connections in your mind? Nearly every post you make has these and then you make even more illogical arguments defending them. That's why people are rude to you, you come off as a troll when you do this in every thread you enter. You keep saying crap that is wrong wrong wrong and then defending it with things that don't actually relate. That is the sign of being retarded (having an IQ below 70) or being a troll.
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Captain
Final Approach
I'd say your take on what happened is different than mine. Since you refuse to stop with name calling and also don't seem to want to put me on your ignore lise I'll do it for you.
Fly safe,
Captain
(say, how do you ignore someone here? I can't seem to find 'the button'.)
Fly safe,
Captain
(say, how do you ignore someone here? I can't seem to find 'the button'.)
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