Good question, if there's nobody else inbound or in the pattern often times I'll get "taxi with me on this freq", so I suppose it has to do with other traffic. Outside of that, no guess.
Taking the Reverse Highspeed
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Good question, if there's nobody else inbound or in the pattern often times I'll get "taxi with me on this freq", so I suppose it has to do with other traffic. Outside of that, no guess.
The Serco tower here in JAC has a firm policy of segregating the two freqs.. They will NOT use tower freq for taxi and vis a versa.. I asked and they told me it was for having the recorders be accurate for all airport movements... Even in the winter when there is a blizzard and the closest flying plane is 200 miles away and the ones on the ground are safely tucked in the hangars they will still make the plow operators stay on ground freq when plowing taxi and ramp spaces and they HAVE to switch to tower when they are out on the runway plowing....
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Usually here you'll get something like "turn right on kilo, taxi to the east ramp, monitor ground point niner". I wish they wouldn't do crap like that sometimes. It just makes it more difficult to teach when it works a little differently on every flight.
jaybee
Cleared for Takeoff
Tower almost always taxis on tower freq when you are fling winging it
Captain
Final Approach
Because if the plane gets lost and needs to ask questions the tower guy doesn't want to clog the tower freq with that non-sense. He's listening to both freqs so if the guy gets lost and asks on ground he hears it and can answer time permitting. The tower freq takes priority. Didn't you say you were an Air Traffic Controller? Maybe I'm mixing you guys up...could have sworn though.
Oh well. There ya go.
most of the time I get told to remain on tower for taxi to ramp if there is only 1 controller working.
Like BAZ needs a tower in the first place!
---
Since I hangar on the west (less crowded) side, I pretty much always get, "right on foxtrot, taxi to parking this frequency."
ARFlyer
En-Route
To add in a question:
What do you do if GND never replies to your "clear of runway @ xyz" call? Can you proceed to taxi to a "safe waiting area" or stay put and disrupt the flow of exiting aircraft?
I came across this a few months ago at MEM. GND would not reply until a King Air pulled up behind us and almost got into an argument with GND about us sitting in front of him.
The second time this happened I was going the other direction so to speak. Holding short at Dallas Love I proceeded to call "N123AB ready to go 31L" and kept getting a hold short reply. Even a G-V, behind us with a TAKEOFF CLEARANCE, "informed" TWR that there was an aircraft holding short. TWR refused to believe him.
It took a CONGA line of pi**ed off biz pilots to set this guy straight. I really wanted to apologize to those pilots. 
What is it about a lowly Piper Arrow that make us invisible?
What do you do if GND never replies to your "clear of runway @ xyz" call? Can you proceed to taxi to a "safe waiting area" or stay put and disrupt the flow of exiting aircraft?
I came across this a few months ago at MEM. GND would not reply until a King Air pulled up behind us and almost got into an argument with GND about us sitting in front of him.
The second time this happened I was going the other direction so to speak. Holding short at Dallas Love I proceeded to call "N123AB ready to go 31L" and kept getting a hold short reply. Even a G-V, behind us with a TAKEOFF CLEARANCE, "informed" TWR that there was an aircraft holding short. TWR refused to believe him.
It took a CONGA line of pi**ed off biz pilots to set this guy straight. I really wanted to apologize to those pilots. What is it about a lowly Piper Arrow that make us invisible?
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roncachamp
Final Approach
Stay put. You cannot operate on a taxiway unless an appropriate clearance has been received from ATC.
I came across this a few months ago at MEM. GND would not reply until a King Air pulled up behind us and almost got into an argument with GND about us sitting in front of him.
The second time this happened I was going the other direction so to speak. Holding short at Dallas Love I proceeded to call "N123AB ready to go 31L" and kept getting a hold short reply. Even a G-V, behind us with a TAKEOFF CLEARANCE, "informed" TWR that there was an aircraft holding short. TWR refused to believe him.
What is it about a lowly Piper Arrow that make us invisible?
The wing is on the wrong side.
Captain
Final Approach
After letting this cool for quite awhile I agree with this (the quote above).
Captain slowed way down trying to get permission for the reverse and ATC wasn't having it.
But still, the AIM says pilots shouldn't exit the runway on another runway or a reverse high speed without tower approval.
Maybe my friend was violated for being stupid. But my general recommendation remains...get permission for the reverse or runway.
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DouglasBader
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Doug
Without reading the entire thread, the initial premise that one can't turn more than 90 degrees off the runway is ridiculous and foolish. There is no such rule, and it's done all the time. The only difference in the amount of time it takes to leave the runway. A high speed exit is designed to expedite leaving the runway, whereas other exits are not. Going to the "reverse" high speed is not a violation of policy or regulation that I'm aware of anywhere on the planet.
I've done it at many airports in the United States and around the world.
For us, reversing on the runway is a big deal. We require 153' to turn around and reverse on the runway, or in other words, to go the other way. If our body gear steering isn't armed or operable, we need 170 feet to do it, plus 50' in front of the nose for obstacles at the time, and 12' past the wingtips due to the large antennas that trail on the wingtips. The 153'/170' is just the hard surface. This also comes into play when considering how much we will need in a turn; a reverse type exit requires more distance, and unless it's a combination of exits that has more pavement, usually the reverse doesn't have a wide enough entrance to allow us to do the full turn.
Where the reverse is wide enough, we can do the turn. We're going to need to be below 10 knots to make the turn, and generally much slower if we're making a large turn; we'll also be carrying power in the turn, and if there are loose objects of sand or dust near the runway, we're going to be obscuring visibility near the runway and on the airport, for a short while.
Beyond those considerations, there are no rules which dictate we can't take the high speed ahead or behind. My personal preference is to roll as far down the runway as I can in nearly all cases, to save the brakes. Hot brakes are always an issue for us, and I roll long in light for heavy airplanes. It doesn't matter.
Commonly a tower will dictate the taxiway to use when exiting the runway. Unless they tell me to exit at the end, my response is generally "unable." I don't accept land and hold short, and when I'm landing, it's my runway. If I'm able to get off the runway early and tower tells me to continue to the end, or to continue past an exit, that's fine. A couple of years ago we were working frequently next to a couple of high speeds that couldn't be used because of de-mining operations; we had to continue past them, and that's not a problem. What is a problem is ATC dictating taking an earlier exit than one wants or intends to take.
Insofar as a high speed going the other way, or not, there's no prohibition against taking one. It is NOT reversing direction on the runway, and I very seriously doubt that one will be able to produce a single case of a pilot being in trouble for taking such an exit. If indeed an individual has come under scrutiny for that action, it's the extenuating circumstances, and not the use of the "reverse high speed" that did it.
I've done it at many airports in the United States and around the world.
For us, reversing on the runway is a big deal. We require 153' to turn around and reverse on the runway, or in other words, to go the other way. If our body gear steering isn't armed or operable, we need 170 feet to do it, plus 50' in front of the nose for obstacles at the time, and 12' past the wingtips due to the large antennas that trail on the wingtips. The 153'/170' is just the hard surface. This also comes into play when considering how much we will need in a turn; a reverse type exit requires more distance, and unless it's a combination of exits that has more pavement, usually the reverse doesn't have a wide enough entrance to allow us to do the full turn.
Where the reverse is wide enough, we can do the turn. We're going to need to be below 10 knots to make the turn, and generally much slower if we're making a large turn; we'll also be carrying power in the turn, and if there are loose objects of sand or dust near the runway, we're going to be obscuring visibility near the runway and on the airport, for a short while.
Beyond those considerations, there are no rules which dictate we can't take the high speed ahead or behind. My personal preference is to roll as far down the runway as I can in nearly all cases, to save the brakes. Hot brakes are always an issue for us, and I roll long in light for heavy airplanes. It doesn't matter.
Commonly a tower will dictate the taxiway to use when exiting the runway. Unless they tell me to exit at the end, my response is generally "unable." I don't accept land and hold short, and when I'm landing, it's my runway. If I'm able to get off the runway early and tower tells me to continue to the end, or to continue past an exit, that's fine. A couple of years ago we were working frequently next to a couple of high speeds that couldn't be used because of de-mining operations; we had to continue past them, and that's not a problem. What is a problem is ATC dictating taking an earlier exit than one wants or intends to take.
Insofar as a high speed going the other way, or not, there's no prohibition against taking one. It is NOT reversing direction on the runway, and I very seriously doubt that one will be able to produce a single case of a pilot being in trouble for taking such an exit. If indeed an individual has come under scrutiny for that action, it's the extenuating circumstances, and not the use of the "reverse high speed" that did it.
Captain
Final Approach
Horse feathers!
And it's in the AIM.
And I know the guy who was busted.
Even the guy knew he needed permission, he was just unclear if he was allowed to wait on an active runway for said permission.
Okay...he was busted for the wait and not the turn. Fine. But the AIM does say a pilot should get permission for the reverse at a towered airport.
I've had PoA people throw me under the bus because I didn't comply with the AIMs freq table listing thingy. So I'm a bad pilot for not knowing 123.45 is assigned in the AIM and nobody has to care the AIM says "don't take the reverse"?
I've come way back from 'you'll get violated for taking the reverse'. Some here can give a little and concede the AIM says what it actually says and stop saying it matters not if you take the reverse.
It does matter at least to the extent you are in noncompliance with the AIM. (and I know the AIM is non regulatory)
And it's in the AIM.
And I know the guy who was busted.
Even the guy knew he needed permission, he was just unclear if he was allowed to wait on an active runway for said permission.
Okay...he was busted for the wait and not the turn. Fine. But the AIM does say a pilot should get permission for the reverse at a towered airport.
I've had PoA people throw me under the bus because I didn't comply with the AIMs freq table listing thingy. So I'm a bad pilot for not knowing 123.45 is assigned in the AIM and nobody has to care the AIM says "don't take the reverse"?
I've come way back from 'you'll get violated for taking the reverse'. Some here can give a little and concede the AIM says what it actually says and stop saying it matters not if you take the reverse.
It does matter at least to the extent you are in noncompliance with the AIM. (and I know the AIM is non regulatory)
DouglasBader
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Doug
The AIM doesn't require permission to exit on a high speed, forward or back. It's NOT changing direction on the runway.
Your friend was not violated for taking the high speed. Find me such a case; you cannot.
Nowhere in the United States will you find such a regulation, and you're correct; the AIM isn't regulatory. It does prescribe standard procedures, but the AIM doesn't prohibit exiting on a runway access that's more than a 90 degree turn.
Moreover, I've never seen such a prohibition anywhere in the world, and I fly to most of it.
Your friend was not violated for taking the high speed. Find me such a case; you cannot.
Nowhere in the United States will you find such a regulation, and you're correct; the AIM isn't regulatory. It does prescribe standard procedures, but the AIM doesn't prohibit exiting on a runway access that's more than a 90 degree turn.
Moreover, I've never seen such a prohibition anywhere in the world, and I fly to most of it.
HPNPilot1200
En-Route
This thread is still going on?? Oye.
FlySince9
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Everskyward
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bflynn
Final Approach
I've only read through about three pages of this -
Did anyone note that the language in the AIM says "pilots should not..."? Isn't the word "should" deemed to be advisory in nature? Isn't the AIM deemed to be advisory in nature? I sure hope so because half the pilots at our non-towered field could be violated on any Saturday just on pattern entry alone.
If so, then isn't it highly, highly likely that the real problem was the captain getting lippy with the controller? They could have chosen to go past the reverse high speed and gotten busted for not taking the first available turn off.
I just looked up the sattelite photo for Dulles because that is a place where I've definately taken the reverse high speed on 19L to get to the FBO - our taxi was K2-K-J1. The alternative, staying on taxi lines, is K3-D-J-J1, which gets much more into the mix...
Did anyone note that the language in the AIM says "pilots should not..."? Isn't the word "should" deemed to be advisory in nature? Isn't the AIM deemed to be advisory in nature? I sure hope so because half the pilots at our non-towered field could be violated on any Saturday just on pattern entry alone.
If so, then isn't it highly, highly likely that the real problem was the captain getting lippy with the controller? They could have chosen to go past the reverse high speed and gotten busted for not taking the first available turn off.
I just looked up the sattelite photo for Dulles because that is a place where I've definately taken the reverse high speed on 19L to get to the FBO - our taxi was K2-K-J1. The alternative, staying on taxi lines, is K3-D-J-J1, which gets much more into the mix...
Captain
Final Approach
The word 'should' was discussed. I brought it up even.
The Captain was not busted for taking the reverse but more for stopping (or slowing WAY down) on an active runway while being told to GET OFF! and then being lippy.
I put too much weight on the reverse aspect. I still think folks should try to get permission though, but whatever. I know I do.
The Captain was not busted for taking the reverse but more for stopping (or slowing WAY down) on an active runway while being told to GET OFF! and then being lippy.
I put too much weight on the reverse aspect. I still think folks should try to get permission though, but whatever. I know I do.
roncachamp
Final Approach
You're delusional. The AIM says nothing at all about a "reverse high speed".
roncachamp
Final Approach
No it isn't.
Captain
Final Approach
BTW, from my personal experience often the reverse high speed is advantageous. I always ask permission before I just take it and 95% the reply is, "That's approved". Sometimes, very rare, I get, "Unable" when traffic is tight.
I've never got, "Why are you asking me? You can get off any place you like."
Just sayin,
I've never got, "Why are you asking me? You can get off any place you like."
Just sayin,
hopmedic
Cleared for Takeoff
Where?
Where?
Where?
It doesn't. I'm not a pilot, but I read the quoted bits from the AIM, and I have enough brain cells to realize that:
1. it doesn't say what you say it says.
2. it is not regulatory.
3. the word "should" is advisory.
If I, in my lowly non-pilot state, can figure this out, I'm having a really hard time figuring out how an almighty airline captain can't.
DouglasBader
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Doug
That's all that counts, isn't it? No need to consult the regulation, ICAO, or the AIM. So long as you *think* it's this way or that, its close enough, then?
Try that as a defense in administrative court before an ALJ. "I think that's the way it is, sir, and that's close enough." Uh-huh.
Definitive. Nice.
Because you have never been asked, then you've established FAA and ICAO policy. Excellent. Have you ever been asked by ATC not to land gear-up, or to ensure adequate newspapers are on board? No?
ATC does not need to advise you that you can exit the runway at the first available exit; it's already a known part of the process. Do you wait for ATC to advise you on other elementary parts of your flying, too, or do you simply understand them from the outset, and not need an ongoing, running commentary to talk you through your flight?
Captain
Final Approach
I err on the side of caution. I'm pro getting permission and your position is pro Not Get Permission.
Do I have that right? You believe a pilot is wrong to get permission for the reverse? Why can't I decide to get the permission or just take the forward high speed instead? Is it wrong of me to take the forward or roll to the first 90 degree?
Do I have that right? You believe a pilot is wrong to get permission for the reverse? Why can't I decide to get the permission or just take the forward high speed instead? Is it wrong of me to take the forward or roll to the first 90 degree?
hopmedic
Cleared for Takeoff
I believe the pilot is wrong for clogging up the airwaves with unnecessary chatter.
I was a paramedic for 10 years. I know what the cost of unnecessary chatter can be.
I was a paramedic for 10 years. I know what the cost of unnecessary chatter can be.
DouglasBader
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Doug
I said nothing of my position. My position is irrelevant.
You're arguing the matter on the merits of regulation and advisory material, and making statements you can't back up with that material. Furthermore, you're arguing this matter on the basis that you know someone who was the subject of enforcement action, when ultimately that was never the case, either.
Thus far, your opinion or position, and mine, is irrelevant, but you've been wholly unable to back up your statements, and that is relevant.
Much like the remainder of the your discourse, you do not have it right.
Captain
Final Approach
I've said I've backed off my earlier position of violating regulation. Should I say it with bold font? If your are not going to read the words I type and apply meaning to those words then we are wasting each others time.
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Snorting his way across the USA
Just out of curiosity, do you know specifically what those pilots that have been busted were cited for, e.g. FAR reference? I would sure like to see one of those letters.
Captain
Final Approach
Your tone is odd. Usually student pilots don't lecture ATP CFI CFII MEI pilots. But times are a changing.
hopmedic
Cleared for Takeoff
I'm not a student pilot lecturing a greater than God ATP CFI CFII MEI pilot. I'm a person with common sense, and enough brain cells to tell when someone is just plain wrong. I'm not intimidated by some idiot's title no matter how overinflated they treat it, and I'm not afraid to tell you that you are wrong. I have served my country, and I'm not going to back down because some troll thinks he's more important than others. You've been told by people with far more aviation experience than me that you're wrong, and as I said, even I, in my lowly little lesser than you, non-pilot state, can tell that what you say isn't there. Give it a rest, troll.
hopmedic
Cleared for Takeoff
I'd go with whomever it was that said you couldn't be 14.
hopmedic
Cleared for Takeoff
I would also add that if indeed you are a real airline pilot (which I seriously doubt), you are a dangerous one, because you, sir, cannot admit when you are wrong.
Captain
Final Approach
Just thought I'd capture that little nugget...
Considering how many of that list qualify as stupid, it's about time the times were changing.
hopmedic
Cleared for Takeoff
I might also add, because I'm sure it wasn't clear to Cameron in my above post, that my identity is not dependent upon what certificate I may or may not have in my wallet. The fact that the one in my wallet says "Student Pilot Certificate" has no bearing on whether or not I can read plain English and figure out what all those little letters mean when bunched up together in the manner in which they happen to be bunched up.
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