Taking off VFR from a Class B Primary Airport

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RussT

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R.j.
Departing VFR from a Class B Primary Airport

Hi!

I am making my first departure from a Class B Primary Airport - KLAS soon. (hopefully after an awesome new years celebration in all the casinos!!) I will be departing VFR. I am aware that I need clearance before entering Class B airspace under VFR.

I will most likely receive an heading and altitude restriction from clearance for my departure. My question is - Will they prefix the instructions with '..cleared through Las Vegas Class Bravo..' or is that implied and unstated due to the fact that I will be in Class B sitting at the ramp before I even taxi?

Thanks much for replying!

R
 
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I have never departed KLAS VFR, so I can't answer your question specifically. Being in the B you will be on a squawk and sent to departure just like IFR until clear. B clearance is implied.

Have you considered KVGT? MUCH better prices, good service, and quick trip to the strip. Surely way easier to depart VFR as well.
 
Hi Alex,

Yeah I've been in and out of North Las Vegas, but I just wanted to try KLAS for it's proximity to the strip and Atlantic had parking space for the New Year.

Thanks for the reply!
 
I'm just a VFR pilot and I haven't done it either, but I have found these videos to be instructive:


 
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You dont get "cleared into class bravo" when departing from the primary class bravo airport VFR. You will call up clearance before calling ground, they will give you instructions on how to depart. I havent been in and out of LAS VFR so I cannot tell you what to expect for departing.
 
RussT said:
Hi Alex,

Yeah I've been in and out of North Las Vegas, but I just wanted to try KLAS for it's proximity to the strip and Atlantic had parking space for the New Year.

Thanks for the reply!
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Gotcha. I was considering Atlantic at KLAS last month, but I read this on Airnav:

$40/night parking, $60 landing fee which is waved w 15gal fuel but the fuel is nearly $9/gal and there is a $15 fee to pump 100LL

Is that consistent with what you found?
 
Is that consistent with what you found?
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Yep Alex that's what the girl said on the phone. I guess the price is to discourage pilots doing what I am doing.
 
I have flown VFR out of LAS several times Your first call is to clearance delivery. At LAS, they want the usual info plus they want to know your desired on course heading and altitude. For me this is direct MMM which I think is a 032 degree heading and 9,500 feet. Most often you will get 19L or R and they will want you to turn right as soon as possible. Your initial clearance will not include "cleared through the bravo" since you are in the bravo. Most every time ATC will take me through the bravo and give me vectors or "own nav" to where I want to go. Super simple. Once however as soon as I got through the lowest shelf I got "squawk VFR, frequency changed approved stay out of the bravo" so be on your toes.
 
Wingsofglass said:
I have flown VFR out of LAS several times Your first call is to clearance delivery. At LAS, they want the usual info plus they want to know your desired on course heading and altitude. For me this is direct MMM which I think is a 032 degree heading and 9,500 feet. Most often you will get 19L or R and they will want you to turn right as soon as possible. Your initial clearance will not include "cleared through the bravo" since you are in the bravo. Most every time ATC will take me through the bravo and give me vectors or "own nav" to where I want to go. Super simple. Once however as soon as I got through the lowest shelf I got "squawk VFR, frequency changed approved stay out of the bravo" so be on your toes.
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Awesome! Question answered, y'all have been a great help. Thanks a lot.
 
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RussT said:
Yep Alex that's what the girl said on the phone. I guess the price is to discourage pilots doing what I am doing.
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It is the cost of doing business there. You don't even want to know what it costs for a jet to sit there.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Gotcha. I was considering Atlantic at KLAS last month, but I read this on Airnav:

$40/night parking, $60 landing fee which is waved w 15gal fuel but the fuel is nearly $9/gal and there is a $15 fee to pump 100LL

Is that consistent with what you found?
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$9 a gallon plus a $15 pumping fee!!
Plus landing and overnight fees.
Go to HND or VGT, what you save will more than pay for a taxi.
HND is a great new facility.
 
BillTIZ said:
$9 a gallon plus a $15 pumping fee!!
Plus landing and overnight fees.
Go to HND or VGT, what you save will more than pay for a taxi.
HND is a great new facility.
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I've been going to VGT and I like it.

Do you know if HND has that shuttle running consistently? That's the only way HND makes sense if you're going to the strip IMO.
 
Dulles VFR departure clearance is usually along these lines:

Navion 5732K is cleared into the class B airspace via fly runway heading, at or below 1500, departure frequency 126.1, squawk 0432.
 
Most of these class B airspaces I have been into will have an almost standard way of handling VFR flights in to and out of the Bravo. Usually it depends on the airport you are flying from or to (i.e. the primary or a satellite airport) and the approach being used.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I've been going to VGT and I like it.

Do you know if HND has that shuttle running consistently? That's the only way HND makes sense if you're going to the strip IMO.
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I live here, I do not have shuttle details.
Shuttle or taxi, still cheaper than McCarran.
 
Marauder said:
Most of these class B airspaces I have been into will have an almost standard way of handling VFR flights in to and out of the Bravo. Usually it depends on the airport you are flying from or to (i.e. the primary or a satellite airport) and the approach being used.
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LAS TRACON standard, "Class B service not available, remain clear of Class B"

Even VFR traffic landing at the primary airport can be expected to circle outside the Class B airspace awaiting clearance to enter.
 
BillTIZ said:
LAS TRACON standard, "Class B service not available, remain clear of Class B"

Even VFR traffic landing at the primary airport can be expected to circle outside the Class B airspace awaiting clearance to enter.
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Definitely the most VFR unfriendly Bravo I've ever flown near. I got a clearance in, but they wanted me gone.

I hear Chicago is worse, but I kinda doubt it.

Everyplace else has been great. Haven't done the whole D.C. SFRA debacle yet though. No real desire to do so, either.
 
Most of the time I have no issue getting into IAD. Occasionally you get a turd controller who stops even responding on the radio. I have to report those.
 
Inverted said:
You dont get "cleared into class bravo" when departing from the primary class bravo airport VFR.
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I guess it depends on the airport. Departing from the Class B is primary is the only time I can think of that I would ever think of relying on an implied VFR Class B clearance (since I was in Class B before my engine even started), but all the times I've departed from DEN, the "cleared into Class Bravo" has been explicit.
 
Seems to me I usually hear "Cleared out of the Class Bravo airspace..." when departing VFR from the primary airport, but it really isn't important. They'll give you explicit instructions and you just do what they tell you. It's not as though the controller is going to clear you for takeoff and then bust you for entering the Bravo without a Class B clearance.
 
If you take off from a Bravo airport your take off clearance is your Bravo clearance - then you get shopped to Departure - and if you are leaving the Bravo they'll just give you a heading or direct to fix. The thing about airspace restrictions is that you need to get reported for violating them - and if you are communicating with them and departing the airspace appropriately no one is going to report you . . . .

remember the whole asking permission vs. forgiveness thing? This falls into the not needing forgiveness because you have permission already .. .. :D

[edit] the thing about Atlantic Aviation is that if you ask nicely often they'll waive the truly outrageous fees -
 
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I've heard a couple of times that LAS is a PITA to get into and out of. I've done it a few times VFR, and never had ATC deny me. There was one time where it took over an hour for Clearance to talk back to us with anything other than "Standby," but I've never been denied clearance into the Bravo, nor have I ever been denied the option to land at KLAS.
 
denverpilot said:
Everyplace else has been great. Haven't done the whole D.C. SFRA debacle yet though. No real desire to do so, either.
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It's really not a pain. File squawk and talk and everything will be hunky dory. They don't really care what you do as long as they know what you're doing and you don't bust the FRZ or the IAD/DCA/BWI Class Bs. You can take people for sightseeing in the SFRA (including loitering--one of my instructors did it so his son could take pictures of his house), transit through it, land at an airport there, whatever.
 
denverpilot said:
Everyplace else has been great. Haven't done the whole D.C. SFRA debacle yet though. No real desire to do so, either.
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Not difficult at all.
If your entering, you will file gate your entering, and where you are going.
What is different is it is filed as IFR, with a DC SFRA Remark. In the altitude, it would be as an example, VFR025.

Departing, you file from where you are departing, to the gate you are departing to. Before departing uncontrolled, call clearance delivery, let them know your VFR, so they know which pile to look in. They give you frequency and squawk code. When departing the traffic pattern, switch to frequency, let them know your off said airport, and go about your ways.
You could file from the airport to the gate, and back to the airport, and loiter around the airspace(not recommended).
 
jpower said:
It's really not a pain. File squawk and talk and everything will be hunky dory. They don't really care what you do as long as they know what you're doing and you don't bust the FRZ or the IAD/DCA/BWI Class Bs. You can take people for sightseeing in the SFRA (including loitering--one of my instructors did it so his son could take pictures of his house), transit through it, land at an airport there, whatever.
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You beat me to it! Good show Watson!
I have loitered with one of my instructors. No big deal. I felt like a rebel!
 
MDeitch1976 said:
I have loitered with one of my instructors. No big deal. I felt like a rebel!
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One could also request to loiter in the FRZ

MSPAviator said:
So you just call up Dulles Approach and say your intentions, right?
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Potomac Appr...and you must have taken the online course prior to visiting. The course is about an hour or so
 
MSPAviator said:
So you just call up Dulles Approach and say your intentions, right?
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Sorta, though it's Potomac Approach that you call. You file an SFRA flight plan with your intentions, and when you call Potomac they can see what you want to do. They give you a squawk code and you go on your merry way.
 
Jaybird180 said:
One could also request to loiter in the FRZ
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You're not even allowed to transit the FRZ. The FRZ procedures are to land/depart the DC-3 ONLY.

Potomac Appr...and you must have taken the online course prior to visiting. The course is about an hour or so
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That's the SFRA not the FRZ. The FRZ requires explicit approval, background check, finger prints ,etc...

Except when Potomac gets a bug up their ass, they don't really case what you do in the SFRA as long as you stay out of the FRZ and the Class B. Most of the time you can negotiate doing things in the class B as well as long as you stay out of the arrival/departure flow for IAD and BWI.
 
flyingron said:
You're not even allowed to transit the FRZ. The FRZ procedures are to land/depart the DC-3 ONLY.


That's the SFRA not the FRZ. The FRZ requires explicit approval, background check, finger prints ,etc...

Except when Potomac gets a bug up their ass, they don't really case what you do in the SFRA as long as you stay out of the FRZ and the Class B. Most of the time you can negotiate doing things in the class B as well as long as you stay out of the arrival/departure flow for IAD and BWI.
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I want to try out the Dulles East Downwind sometime. Apparently it is not published, but a known transition through IAD Bravo.
 
MDeitch1976 said:
I want to try out the Dulles East Downwind sometime. Apparently it is not published, but a known transition through IAD Bravo.
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It's hard to get, as it depends on the flow at IAD, and it's a very tight squeeze between the pattern at Dulles and the FRZ. Not for the faint of heart or the sloppy of navigation, and there is a string of about four GPS waypoints you'll need (and which I've forgotten).

And as the others said, to get within 60nm of DCA VORTAC legally (inside the ring with the blue Chinese wall), you need either to be IFR or have taken the DC SFRA course.
https://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/course_content.aspx?cID=55&preview=true
FWIW, I most strongly recommend taking that course even if you plan to go IFR -- lots of ways to screw up even IFR.

For those wishing to go to the "DC-3" airports (College Park CGS, Hyde W32, or Potomac VKX) inside the FRZ (that's the whited-out area about 15nm radius around the center of DC), there's a whole lot more involved, including fingerprinting, a background check, special training program, and secret passwords. As far as National (DCA), if you're not an airline, just forget about it -- among other things, you need armed law enforcement aboard.
 
MDeitch1976 said:
I want to try out the Dulles East Downwind sometime. Apparently it is not published, but a known transition through IAD Bravo.
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Not published. It's actually been around since long before 9/11. While there was a VFR flyway through the DC class B that roughly ran from Wolf Trap down to the Star fuel tank terminal, you could also ask for the downwind transition THROUGH the class B. Further, if you were arriving IAD from the "wrong" side in other than IMC, you'd get routed that way anyway. It pretty much runs directly over my house.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's hard to get, as it depends on the flow at IAD, and it's a very tight squeeze between the pattern at Dulles and the FRZ. Not for the faint of heart or the sloppy of navigation, and there is a string of about four GPS waypoints you'll need (and which I've forgotten).
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MIXNN to TICON North to South. My Instructor gave me a good presentation on using this transition. While she does state to be prepared for rejection and should have a plan accordingly, but there is a good chance it will approved. She does recommend having GPS for this, but has also pointed out visual landmarks to use to stay outside the FRZ.
 
MDeitch1976 said:
MIXNN to TICON North to South. My Instructor gave me a good presentation on using this transition. While she does state to be prepared for rejection and should have a plan accordingly, but there is a good chance it will approved. She does recommend having GPS for this, but has also pointed out visual landmarks to use to stay outside the FRZ.
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You want to do that one on visual landmarks, go right ahead, but it's less than two miles from the black line to the edge of the FRZ, and you're usually not very low. For me, a GPS is a go/no-go on that run.
 
Ron Levy said:
You want to do that one on visual landmarks, go right ahead, but it's less than two miles from the black line to the edge of the FRZ, and you're usually not very low. For me, a GPS is a go/no-go on that run.
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I am 100% in agreement with you on the GPS.
 
I flew into and out of KLAS earlier this year. I didnt find it to be a big deal, but I was flying IFR. The most challenging aspect of that airport is taxiing to atlantic, it took me about 20 minutes. You need to really be on your toes to avoid getting lost, do a runway incursion, or just end up where you are not supposed to. I went throught 3 ground frequencies:hairraise::hairraise:
 
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