Taking off VFR from a Class B Primary Airport

[jpower]

MIXNN to TICON North to South. My Instructor gave me a good presentation on using this transition. While she does state to be prepared for rejection and should have a plan accordingly, but there is a good chance it will approved. She does recommend having GPS for this, but has also pointed out visual landmarks to use to stay outside the FRZ.

I always heard RAYEE and STAYO North to South...but I guess anything that keeps you in that same corridor is fine.

 

[MDeitch1976]

I always heard RAYEE and STAYO North to South...but I guess anything that keeps you in that same corridor is fine.

Looking at the Chart starting at MIXNN, is good because it is a good place to orbit while trying get clearance. Departing from GAI, it is right over Lake Seneca, which is easy to spot. Also, I think my instructor said MIXNN to TICON because it also gives you the 3 NM to the east of the runways where they want you.

When I eventually try it out, I will let you know how it goes.

 

[flyingron]

You want to do that one on visual landmarks, go right ahead, but it's less than two miles from the black line to the edge of the FRZ, and you're usually not very low. For me, a GPS is a go/no-go on that run.

It's actually not that hard, Ron. You are flying about two miles from the 1L/19R at Dulles. That's a pretty darn big landmark.

 

[RussT]

I flew into and out of KLAS earlier this year. I didnt find it to be a big deal, but I was flying IFR. The most challenging aspect of that airport is taxiing to atlantic, it took me about 20 minutes. You need to really be on your toes to avoid getting lost, do a runway incursion, or just end up where you are not supposed to. I went throught 3 ground frequencies

WOW that's an expensive taxi. Apparently if you put in the remarks on your flight plan that you are parking at Atlantic and when switching to LAS Approach you append "...with atis XXXX for Atlantic" they will give you an option for RWY 19R-1L which is adjacent to Atlantic - or so I am told I will find out soon.

 

[poadeleted20]

It's actually not that hard, Ron. You are flying about two miles from the 1L/19R at Dulles. That's a pretty darn big landmark.

Having done it on the GPS a time or two, I know they get very nervous if you deviate much at all either way -- east is the FRZ, and west is the traffic pattern at IAD. They really want you on the line. Like I said, you want to do it visually, mighty fine, but I won't.

 

[flyingron]

Having done it on the GPS a time or two, I know they get very nervous if you deviate much at all either way -- east is the FRZ, and west is the traffic pattern at IAD. They really want you on the line. Like I said, you want to do it visually, mighty fine, but I won't.

The tolerances aren't that tight. If you couldn't fly it now, you darn well have no business flying in the class B at all. It is certainly 1000 times easier than the old N-S VFR flyway (now entirely consumed by the FRZ). Not only were there only dubious VFR landmarks (Wolf Trap and the Star Terminal), there weren't even charted waypoints on the ends.

 

[Jaybird180]

You're not even allowed to transit the FRZ. The FRZ procedures are to land/depart the DC-3 ONLY.


That's the SFRA not the FRZ. The FRZ requires explicit approval, background check, finger prints ,etc...

Except when Potomac gets a bug up their ass, they don't really case what you do in the SFRA as long as you stay out of the FRZ and the Class B. Most of the time you can negotiate doing things in the class B as well as long as you stay out of the arrival/departure flow for IAD and BWI.

I have a FRZ clearance and have taken a diversion to find a landmark, with Potomac's approval, sir.

 

[Jaybird180]

MIXNN to TICON North to South. My Instructor gave me a good presentation on using this transition. While she does state to be prepared for rejection and should have a plan accordingly, but there is a good chance it will approved. She does recommend having GPS for this, but has also pointed out visual landmarks to use to stay outside the FRZ.

the DCPilots Yahoo group archives has this data

 

[Brad Z]

I guess the DC folks have hijacked this thread.

When I used to fly the traffic planes a couple years ago, we would routinely fly the Dulles Toll road to Fairfax Co Parkway, and then head east or west on 66. We never had trouble getting Bravo clearances at 1400 feet, but the IAD Tower guys knew our operation.

I'm still waiting to meet the brave Post 9/11 pilot that has succussfully threaded the tiny gap between the FRZ and the IAD surface area without a bravo clearance or an FRZ waiver. I've heard plenty of people talk about it, but noone has admitted to getting away with it (and proof).

 

[MDeitch1976]

the DCPilots Yahoo group archives has this data

All I could find was a message with several replies on this topic on DCPilots.
My instructor had a well written document on the "IAD East Downwind". She even had a Supervisor at Potomac Tracon look it over and stated it was consistent with Potomac operations.

 

[poadeleted20]

The tolerances aren't that tight. If you couldn't fly it now, you darn well have no business flying in the class B at all. It is certainly 1000 times easier than the old N-S VFR flyway (now entirely consumed by the FRZ). Not only were there only dubious VFR landmarks (Wolf Trap and the Star Terminal), there weren't even charted waypoints on the ends.

It's those charted waypoints which make all the difference, and those go in your GPS.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm still waiting to meet the brave Post 9/11 pilot that has succussfully threaded the tiny gap between the FRZ and the IAD surface area without a bravo clearance or an FRZ waiver.

There is no gap. The FRZ abuts the IAD Class B surface area, and encompasses the full width of the old VFR N-S corridor. The Dulles East Transition runs through IAD Class B surface area over Reston, so there's no going through that corridor VFR legally without a Class B clearance.

 

[Brad Z]

There is no gap. The FRZ abuts the IAD Class B surface area, and encompasses the full width of the old VFR N-S corridor. The Dulles East Transition runs through IAD Class B surface area over Reston, so there's no going through that corridor VFR legally without a Class B clearance.

Technically, there is a gap, which can be seen on the TAC chart, and measures only a couple hundred feet wide. IIRC, this was discussed on DCPilots shortly after the ADIZ redesign and I beleive someone went as far as to do the math to confirm the gap. I suspect the gap is an unfortunate cartographic result of trying to define a tangent using two points identified by VOR radials and distances.

Practically speaking, the gap does not exist. You're still talking to ATC and your track is being monitored. Potomac will undoubtably challenge an attempt to squeeze through the gap, and the proximity to the FRZ will capture the attention of the NCRCC, who will quickly be on the phone with the TRACON.

speaking of tangents....

 

[gprellwitz]

Definitely the most VFR unfriendly Bravo I've ever flown near. I got a clearance in, but they wanted me gone.

I hear Chicago is worse, but I kinda doubt it.

Everyplace else has been great. Haven't done the whole D.C. SFRA debacle yet though. No real desire to do so, either.

Greg Brown just published an article about flying into KLAS.

And Chicago wouldn't even accept us VFR. They insisted we file IFR to land.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Technically, there is a gap, which can be seen on the TAC chart, and measures only a couple hundred feet wide. IIRC, this was discussed on DCPilots shortly after the ADIZ redesign and I beleive someone went as far as to do the math to confirm the gap. I suspect the gap is an unfortunate cartographic result of trying to define a tangent using two points identified by VOR radials and distances.

Practically speaking, the gap does not exist. You're still talking to ATC and your track is being monitored. Potomac will undoubtably challenge an attempt to squeeze through the gap, and the proximity to the FRZ will capture the attention of the NCRCC, who will quickly be on the phone with the TRACON.

speaking of tangents....

Maybe some of those air race gates can be placed on the ground. Just Radio into ATC to activate the gates. On the reality check side, I am going to assume they did not mean to leave a gap there. Just North of that Gap, there is that 3000' small triangle of a shelf?

 

[flyingron]

It's those charted waypoints which make all the difference, and those go in your GPS.

You seem incapable of reading. I'm not talking about the current downwind transition. I'm talking about the old VFR flyway and that for a long time did NOT have any GPS waypoints to define it.

At least they got rid of the goofy piece of the frz that escaped the flyway boundary to follow the (then) isoagonic line for a bit.

 

[flyingron]

There is no gap. The FRZ abuts the IAD Class B surface area, and encompasses the full width of the old VFR N-S corridor. The Dulles East Transition runs through IAD Class B surface area over Reston, so there's no going through that corridor VFR legally without a Class B clearance.

No, it does not. It complete consumes the old flyway, but there is an very tiny sliver at 1500 floor airspace between the FRZ and the surface area. However, that one I'd not try to navigate even with a good GPS. Matt is right, it's only a couple of hundred feet wide.

 

[poadeleted20]

You seem incapable of reading. I'm not talking about the current downwind transition. I'm talking about the old VFR flyway and that for a long time did NOT have any GPS waypoints to define it.

Sorry, thought the Dulles East Transition was under discussion, not history. The old flyway was indeed wide enough to fly safely without a GPS, and the penalty for messing it up was fairly mild, but the Dulles East Transition requires too much precision to stay out of too much trouble.

 

[RussT]

So I thought I would report back, here's what happened
"LAS VEGAS CLEARANCE NXXXXX IS TYPE CIRRUS SR20 SLASH GOLF LANDING SANTA MONICA 8500 VFR"
"CIRRUS XX CLEARED THROUGH THE CLASS BRAVO FLY HEADING 240 AT OR BELOW 5000 DEPARTURE FREQUENCY 12X.X SQUAWK 4647"

So they ended up giving me clearance thru bravo before take off.

So interesting story:
Two days before, when I arrived to vegas, Los Angeles Center was unable to hand me off (I don't know why) to Las Vegas approach and made me squawk VFR and call them myself. So I called them up, was given a different code I had to hold for 7 mins until being handed off to a different controller who then asked me to fly heading 350 at 5000 until I intercept the localizer of RWY 01L (I guess he thought I was IFR rated, but I had done this before, already had the loc in the radio, and I could already see the airport so I just went with it). He told me to maintain my 130 or greater until I was on a 10 mile final. At 10.5 miles he told me to maintain my speed until 5 miles from final. I was up at 150KIAS, I have to say I was slightly concerned I would be unable to slow down quick enough but it was fine and I had everything ready. Hearing the controller saying "Southwest XX you are number two following a Cirrus" makes you work quick.

When I was departing the two days after, the ground controller told me to follow one of the new United dreamliners "without delay" when taxiing. Anyone know a good rule of thumb how much to leave behind a jet like that without being blown away?

I have to say, first time going into a class B airport was a lot of fun. The guys at atlantic aviation were great - they had a car waiting at my parking to drive me to the hotel. All a very friendly bunch. I took off from runway 01L and was vectored right over the hotels on the strip (I was probably only 1000ft above the hotels) Nice view.

 

[BillTIZ]

Appreciate the report!

Depending on your altitude as you approach LAS from the SW, LA Center may not have radar coverage all the way to LAS TRACON airspace. Terminating service and leaving you on your own to deal with TRACON is standard practice.

At least you were in a plane to keep your speed, otherwise they may have vectored you on a parralle course while the Airlines passed you, and then try to squeeze you in between at the last minute.

Any report for landing fees, overnight cost, fuel cost and car service?

I've used Atlantic at other non-class B airports and always thought they provided excellent service, C-182 to jets, it did not matter.

 

[RussT]

So anyone have advice on distance to keep from big jets while taxing? I don't want my cirrus to be this Ford: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ9uWsvR1l0

BTIZ Atlantic Charges:
- $45 landing fee was waived by buying 15 gallons of overpriced (by about $2.50 a gallon) av gas.
- Parking is $40 a night
- They give a free ride to the hotel.
- The terminal is literally 2 min drive away from the strip. So convenient.

It's not a lot more expensive considering you would have to count the costs to get back to the terminal is low compared to henderson or north las vegas. I'll try out Henderson next time.

Depending on your altitude as you approach LAS from the SW, LA Center may not have radar coverage all the way to LAS TRACON airspace. Terminating service and leaving you on your own to deal with TRACON is standard practice.

Yes they lost me for a while as I was at 5500 enroute to las vegas from DAG, they told me to report in at 45 miles from KLAS and they picked me up again. I don't know, they had radar contact, it was weird he said something like 'I'm having trouble handing you over to las vegas approach today. You can try calling them yourself on 134.xx. Radar services terminated. Squawk VFR'