Take instrument checkride without medical?

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UTLonghorn_1979

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UTLonghorn_1979
So I saw a thread about taking an instrument check ride without a medical in an LSA/SPL. However, I'm a PPL without a current medical. I trained for my IFR rating for about 4 months, I took the written in May of 2023 (got a 97) but now find myself in a medical decline situation (subject to additional info for SI). It seems that it's up to the DPE, mainly for liability reasons, and that you don't need a medical to do an instrument check ride/practical.

I didn't really walk away with 100% clarity from the prior thread, as some DPE's want to see, so I was hoping for some additional insights.

Part 61.65 doesn't say anything about a medical, but Part 61.23 says:

§ 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.

(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate—

(iii) When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate, except when operating under the conditions and limitations set forth in § 61.113(i);

It doesn't address instrument "rating," only certificate types.

My CFII signed off on taking the written and was going to schedule the practical when I mentioned I needed to renew my class 3. He told me I needed a medical, but now I find that it may not be necessary. I'd like to keep moving forward with my training and flying, even if not acting as PIC, and do my IFR check ride vs. potentially waiting another 1-2 years and needing to take the written again. I'm clearly an optimist and believe I'll get over the medical hurdle.

Thanks in advance!


www.law.cornell.edu

14 CFR § 61.65 - Instrument rating requirements.

www.law.cornell.edu www.law.cornell.edu

www.law.cornell.edu

14 CFR § 61.23 - Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.

www.law.cornell.edu www.law.cornell.edu
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
So I saw a thread about taking an instrument check ride without a medical in an LSA/SPL. However, I'm a PPL without a current medical. I trained for my IFR rating for about 4 months, I took the written in May of 2023 (got a 97) but now find myself in a medical decline situation (subject to additional info for SI). It seems that it's up to the DPE, mainly for liability reasons, and that you don't need a medical to do an instrument check ride/practical.

I didn't really walk away with 100% clarity from the prior thread, as some DPE's want to see, so I was hoping for some additional insights.

Part 61.65 doesn't say anything about a medical, but Part 61.23 says:

§ 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.

(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate—

(iii) When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate, except when operating under the conditions and limitations set forth in § 61.113(i);

It doesn't address instrument "rating," only certificate types.

My CFII signed off on taking the written and was going to schedule the practical when I mentioned I needed to renew my class 3. He told me I needed a medical, but now I find that it may not be necessary. I'd like to keep moving forward with my training and flying, even if not acting as PIC, and do my IFR check ride vs. potentially waiting another 1-2 years and needing to take the written again. I'm clearly an optimist and believe I'll get over the medical hurdle.

Thanks in advance!


www.law.cornell.edu

14 CFR § 61.65 - Instrument rating requirements.

www.law.cornell.edu www.law.cornell.edu

www.law.cornell.edu

14 CFR § 61.23 - Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.

www.law.cornell.edu www.law.cornell.edu
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In a checkride, you are PIC. Therefore, you have to meet the requirements to act as PIC, which includes a current medical (of whatever form your certificate requires)
 
Technically, the DPE can operate as the PIC during the checkride, but the FAA rather strenuously recommends that they do not do so. I'd suspect you'd be hard pressed in todays underserved and corrupt DPE environment to find one willing to risk his designation in doing so.
 
flyingron said:
Technically, the DPE can operate as the PIC during the checkride, but the FAA rather strenuously recommends that they do not do so.
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Thank you. That seems to be the only "official" ruling that I can find as well. Guess I just need to find a DPE that shares that view.
 
The practical problem is that if the DPE takes the controls, you fail. So you want them to let you get all the way to the end of your rope before they do that. It's quite possible you'll have a lot less rope if they're the PIC.
 
Current requirements from FAA Order 8900.1 - this is the Order that deals with the conduct of FAA peronnel. This is part of a chapter on conducting a practical test for the instrument rating.

Good catch in the regulatory language, BTW, even if it doesn’t work that way.

1719537669514.png
 
midlifeflyer said:
Current requirements from FAA Order 8900.1 - this is the Order that deals with the conduct of FAA peronnel. This is part of a chapter on conducting a practical test for the instrument rating.

Good catch in the regulatory language, BTW, even if it doesn’t work that way.

View attachment 130674
Click to expand...


There's a difference between what an FAA examiner is and isn't allowed to do and what a DPE is and isn't.
 
The answer to the initial question is not that difficult. Do you qualify for BasicMed? If so, follow this path. Even so the checklist for the examiner in Appendix 5 of ACS-IR mentioning BasicMed has been removed in the current edition -8C, the law has not changed.

pilot-protection-services.aopa.org

BasicMed and Your Checkride

pilot-protection-services.aopa.org

Perhaps a good time to sign up for AOPA‘s Legal Service Plan
 
flyingron said:
There's a difference between what an FAA examiner is and isn't allowed to do and what a DPE is and isn't.
Click to expand...
I don’t personally know any DPEs who would not follow the FSIMS guidance on qualifications any more than not follow the ACS (even when it wasn’t regulatory).

If you are suggesting one would be able to do an instrument add-on to a private or commercial airplane certificate checkride without a medical, I disagree.

OTOH, if you are just being technical, there’s this from Order 8000.95, Designee Management, about DPE ongoing responsibilities.
1719574710407.png
 
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aggiepack said:
The answer to the initial question is not that difficult. Do you qualify for BasicMed? If so, follow this path. Even so the checklist for the examiner in Appendix 5 of ACS-IR mentioning BasicMed has been removed in the current edition -8C, the law has not changed.

pilot-protection-services.aopa.org

BasicMed and Your Checkride

pilot-protection-services.aopa.org

Perhaps a good time to sign up for AOPA‘s Legal Service Plan
Click to expand...
Pretty sure the question is about having no medical certification at all, not even BasicMed. In fact the original post specifically quotes the reg regarding BasicMed.

But yeah, whether the OP might qualify for BasicMed despite the medical deferral is not a bad question.
 
OP stated that he is PPL rated, so there was obviously at least a 3rd class medical in the past. Key question for BasicMed: was the last medical revoked, suspended or application denied (all bad for Basic!ed) or just has lapsed after July 14, 2006?
 
aggiepack said:
OP stated that he is PPL rated, so there was obviously at least a 3rd class medical in the past. Key question for BasicMed: was the last medical revoked, suspended or application denied (all bad for Basic!ed) or just has lapsed after July 14, 2006?
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There are two key questions. The other is the reason for the SI deferral. It might or might not be for one of the reasons an SI is required before pursuing BasicMed. That, in turn, might lead to even more questions (most of which are probably better answered one-on-one rather than in a public forum).

At the same time, @UTLonghorn_1979's quoting the applicable qualification regs at least suggests that level of personal due diligence has been done.
 
aggiepack said:
OP stated that he is PPL rated, so there was obviously at least a 3rd class medical in the past. Key question for BasicMed: was the last medical revoked, suspended or application denied (all bad for Basic!ed) or just has lapsed after July 14, 2006?
Click to expand...

OP’s most recent application for a medical was deferred, there’s a thread or two about it in medical topics, so OP cannot utilize BasicMed.
 
GoFly said:
I would come at this from another perspective. Why are you willing to fly without being medically cleared by the FAA?
Click to expand...
Maybe because the FAA says you can (gliders, light sport, balloons; limited with BasicMed since you had to have at least one since July 2006), and so far there is nothing in the data to indicate there is an increased risk of a medically-caused accident by those exercising those privileges?

And even without that, why not fly with a friend as PIC?
 
I agree. Under those circumstances BasicMed is not a valid option. I wonder from time to time why people apply for class 3 when it is clear from the very beginning that the application will be denied and thus slamming the door for BasicMed.
 
aggiepack said:
I agree. Under those circumstances BasicMed is not a valid option. I wonder from time to time why people apply for class 3 when it is clear from the very beginning that the application will be denied and thus slamming the door for BasicMed.
Click to expand...

Well there’s the part about the last medical was issued in, say, 1990. If you want BM, you gotta get issued once, first.

Then there’s the verbiage of a deferral is not a denial. Unless the OP has an actual denial, he’s in a deferred status.

Further complicating it is the BM isn’t a permanent way to operate since there are conditions that require someone to go back to a Class III for a one-time SI.

Then there’s accepting that if you don’t want to operate with a medical, then you’ve got Sport Pilot, gliders, etc. as your only choices. Some folks know that, some don’t. But the primacy of “get my medical current” has to be overcome, and if you’ve spent a decade or two on hiatus from aviation, you don’t know what you don’t know.

But I suspect very, very few people “know” they’ll be denied when that walk into an AME’s office.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I think he said without a current medical.
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To me the “without a current medical” and having been denied a medical application is materially different in this instance. You could argue that one could fly SP if you are “without a current medical”, but not if your medical application was denied.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I think he said without a current medical.
Click to expand...

Yes, but there's a pretty big difference between "I don't have a current medical because I just haven't gotten one yet" and "I don't have a current medical because my previous application for one was denied due to history of alcohol abuse". So while the statement that the OP "doesn't have a current medical" is true, it's lacking in some very important details required in order to offer useful advice.
 
RussR said:
Yes, but there's a pretty big difference between "I don't have a current medical because I just haven't gotten one yet" and "I don't have a current medical because my previous application for one was denied due to history of alcohol abuse". So while the statement that the OP "doesn't have a current medical" is true, it's lacking in some very important details required in order to offer useful advice.
Click to expand...
Well, but the only question asked - can I take the instrument checkride without some sort of accepted medical certification (No) - doesn't have a different answer depending on the reason for the lack of medical certification. So the "useful" advice comes down to asking a question (or several) the OP didn't ask and answering those instead.

Thread drift is to be expected, but it's hardly kosher to blame the OP for not providing the information necessary to answer someone else's question :D
 
Thanks for the feedback. It sounds like the answer is, no. As stated in other threads, I can keep flying/getting dual time and logging "PIC" time but not acting, in the legal sense, as the PIC.

I'm not excited about likely having to take the IFR written again, and after I've already taken it twice and graded 97% both times, but it is what it is.
 
Clip4 said:
If you were denied a medical, you cant be PIC in an LSA and you want to do an IR ride?
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Legally/regulatory able and demonstrably able are two different things.

I was signed off to take written. After passing written and working to schedule the practical, I ran into medical issues with the FAA.

Some threads, and even AOPA, said it’s a grey area. If you can find a DPE to agree to act as PIC, you can do IFR check ride.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
Legally/regulatory able and demonstrably able are two different things.

I was signed off to take written. After passing written and working to schedule the practical, I ran into medical issues with the FAA.

Some threads, and even AOPA, said it’s a grey area. If you can find a DPE to agree to act as PIC, you can do IFR check ride.
Click to expand...
If you were denied a medical, you are not legal to fly an LSA. Nor may you take an IR test without a medical. If you were able to take the IR practical, hopefully the FAA would see you were denied a medical and flying LSA.

61.23(c)

(2) A person using a U.S. driver's license to meet the requirements of paragraph (c) while exercising sport pilot privileges must—

(i) Comply with each restriction and limitation imposed by that person's U.S. driver's license and any judicial or administrative order applying to the operation of a motor vehicle;

(ii) Have been found eligible for the issuance of at least a third-class airman medical certificate at the time of his or her most recent application (if the person has applied for a medical certificate);
 
Clip4 said:
If you were denied a medical, you cant be PIC in an LSA and you want to do an IR ride?
Click to expand...
Legally/regulatory able and demonstrably able are two different things.

I was signed off to take written. After passing written and working to schedule the practical, I ran into medical issues with the FAA.

Some threads, and even AOPA, said it’s a grey area. If you can find a DPE to agree to act as PIC, you can do IFR check ride.
Clip4 said:
If you were denied a medical, you are not legal to fly an LSA. Nor may you take an IR test without a medical. If you were able to take the IR practical, hopefully the FAA would see you were denied a medical and flying LSA.

61.23(c)

(2) A person using a U.S. driver's license to meet the requirements of paragraph (c) while exercising sport pilot privileges must—

(i) Comply with each restriction and limitation imposed by that person's U.S. driver's license and any judicial or administrative order applying to the operation of a motor vehicle;

(ii) Have been found eligible for the issuance of at least a third-class airman medical certificate at the time of his or her most recent application (if the person has applied for a medical certificate);
Click to expand...
I’m not sure why you keep bringing up flying a LSA. I’m not flying anything at the moment.

But you’re incorrect. I CAN fly a LSA, or any aircraft for that matter. I can’t, however, fly solo or act as PIC.

The question is can I do a check ride for IFR with the DPE acting legally as PIC even though I’m “PIC” as sole manipulator of controls.

I’m leaning towards no, I'm seeing arguments for yes, but it’s not “recommended” by the FAA.
 
Kritchlow said:
Well, seeing as though you got a 97 on your written, I think you should be able to do anything you want as far as requirements for the checkride.
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Sarcasm is hilarious.
aggiepack said:
I agree. Under those circumstances BasicMed is not a valid option. I wonder from time to time why people apply for class 3 when it is clear from the very beginning that the application will be denied and thus slamming the door for BasicMed.
Click to expand...
I already had a class 3, expired prior to 2006, so didn’t have option for basic med. Looks like I could have gone the sports pilot route, but didn’t think road would be as long or difficult to get class 3 back. I started flying again after a 20 year hiatus…got married, kids, $ needed elsewhere.
 
MauleSkinner said:
But….but…THIS IS POA!!! :rofl:
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Personally, I kinda like the “bootstrap evil" ones which kinda go…

If you want to take a checkride without a medical, I’m going to say it means you have been acting as PIC without a medical, so you are a rules violator and a bad person.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Personally, I kinda like the “bootstrap evil ones which kinda go…

If you want to take a checkride without a medical, I’m going to say it means you have been acting as PIC without a medical, so you are a rules violator and a bad person.
Click to expand...
That's definitely what it feels like sometimes. Hyperbolic example:

Thread comment:

UTLonghorn_1979:​

Man, this HIMS deferral process is a whip! Seems like there has to be a better way to manage this process, right?!

Random POA Responder:​

Got to hell, you go to hell and you die!
 
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