Tablet Crash on Approach

airdale

airdale

Pattern Altitude
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airdale
Here is a snipped version of something I saw posted in another thread:

... I've had some app crashes while on IFR approach in IMC, and I can tell you that's not much fun.:eek:
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When I read this, my reaction was: "Huh?"

I like these tablets; they are great toys and the in-cockpit weather is wonderful. But ... when I'm shooting an approach the last thing I'm going to be doing is playing with a toy computer. In fact, I am much more likely to be playing with my tablet when I am flying right seat with a friend. Left seat, nice day, small or familiar destination airport, I may not even turn the thing on. (I am almost always flying with a G430 or G530.)

But I suspect that I am a bit unusual in this. Comments?
 
Many of us, myself included, have replaced paper with tablets. So, yes, a tablet crash on approach would be concerning. Would be nice to think I have all altitudes memorized including the missed but that just isn't the case especially with an unfamiliar airport. Would be nice to have altitude data on a 430, but sadly they just provide lateral course which is unfortunate in my view. This is not to say that I do not carry a backup, but I do not want to fumble with a backup during an approach. Because of this, I have been very cautious of any updates to the tablet or external GPS receiver which mine uses.
 
I've been relying on an iPad for approach plates (iPhone backup) for a few years and fortunately haven't had any crashes. I do typically jot pertinent altitudes and headings on a post-it and my GPS (GNS480 knows the standard missed approach course (note to self: add holding altitude to items on post-it).

I don't feel that losing the tablet would be much of a problem. Worst case if I was in a radar environment and still IMC without enough information to complete the approach, I'd tell ATC what happened and get a delay vector or a vector to the holding fix.

Nothing is "uncrashable", even paper can fall under the seat or get coffee spilled on it. I'm more concerned about the (very small) possibility that my GPS would fail or get jammed while I'm low enough on an approach to be out of radar coverage. That would get my heart going a lot quicker than a tablet crash.
 
Yeah. Plates. Slow thinking this morning I guess. My habit is to print plates for my departure and destination airports and see the tablet as backup and for diversions. So another reason I am a bit weird about this.
 
airdale said:
Yeah. Plates. Slow thinking this morning I guess. My habit is to print plates for my departure and destination airports and see the tablet as backup and for diversions. So another reason I am a bit weird about this.
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I use a yoke mounted mini backed up by a full sized ipad strapped to my leg backed up by a GNS430 backed up by my phone backed up by the sportys approach capable handheld backed up by a backup battery backed up by a second backup battery backed up by calling approach on one of my radios and saying "help!!!"

I intend to buy a Stratus at some point :)
 
Havnt had a crash yet. If I did would immediately notify ATC and ask for altitude read outs . Also usually right down the alt from the plate while encounter,just in case.
 
gismo said:
Nothing is "uncrashable", even paper can fall under the seat or get coffee spilled on it. I'm more concerned about the (very small) possibility that my GPS would fail or get jammed while I'm low enough on an approach to be out of radar coverage. That would get my heart going a lot quicker than a tablet crash.
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Some places there isn't any radar at approach altitudes.
 
As the one who posted the original "crash" snippet, as a routine I print out all approach plates of my origin, destination and alternate. I also carry a complete set of NOAA charts as backup. I have the printed plate on my kneeboard, as my main "reliable" reference point during the approach.
The (yoke mounted) tablet's main advantage for me is the geo-referenced approach plate, since I don't pay for that subscription in the panel mounted GTN-750. So in case of tablet failure I revert to non-geo-referencing on the paper plate. I still have it in the panel, so it's not as if I am suddenly blind.
So losing the tablet (actually it was the app that crashed, but same idea) is not catastrophic, but still an annoying distraction, at a time when you really don't want any. Fortunately rebooting/restarting is usually just a few seconds, but even that's too long and distracting during the final parts of the approach.
 
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jordane93 said:
Nothing but the best. I love when my paper still works even if my Ipad dies.
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And I LOVE not having to spend two hours each month fumbling with Jepp updates and not carrying 30 lbs of NACA books with me everywhere.

There was a time when I carried a small printer with me on trips so I could print a few plates for backup but I finally concluded that this was a solution to a problem where the consequences of the problem coupled with the likelihood of said problem were small enough to not be worth the bother.
 
I had my kneeboard crash once. Actually the strap on the kneeboard came undone. And the kneeboard slid down my leg and finally came to rest between the pedals. In hind site, I'd rather have had an iPad crash.

I haven't had a crash, but the plan is to go missed, get settled in the cabin, restart app and pull up procedure on backup device (my iPhone). 99% of the time a restart fixes the problem, but I have the other device just in case. I also wait on upgrading OS and FF versions to make sure the bugs are worked out.
 
gismo said:
And I LOVE not having to spend two hours each month fumbling with Jepp updates and not carrying 30 lbs of NACA books with me everywhere.

There was a time when I carried a small printer with me on trips so I could print a few plates for backup but I finally concluded that this was a solution to a problem where the consequences of the problem coupled with the likelihood of said problem were small enough to not be worth the bother.
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Yes. That's why I print the few plates that I expect to need, then consider the tablet to be my backup.That's my optimum tradeoff of risk vs hassle factor. Even 100% VFR I carry one plate each for the departure and destination airport so I have all the freqs plus, if available, I print the full sheet airport diagrams.
 
FORANE said:
Many of us, myself included, have replaced paper with tablets. So, yes, a tablet crash on approach would be concerning. Would be nice to think I have all altitudes memorized including the missed but that just isn't the case especially with an unfamiliar airport. Would be nice to have altitude data on a 430, but sadly they just provide lateral course which is unfortunate in my view. This is not to say that I do not carry a backup, but I do not want to fumble with a backup during an approach. Because of this, I have been very cautious of any updates to the tablet or external GPS receiver which mine uses.
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Excellent post without getting into the "paper vs plastic" religious wars.

I carry a backup also (Android tablet - different OS/different app). I would not like to fumble for it either. Wouldn't even want to fumble for a paper backup. Less of a problem when one can at least query ATC for the appropriate altitude or when minimums are pretty high; more of one when that is not the case.

BTW, have to admit I had paper "crash" once. Wasn't properly secured and fell under the seat.
 
I had my iPad battery go dead during my IR ride. Thankfully, it was on touch down after my last approach. :thumbsup:
 
25 years and still counting, hasn't crashed yet :D
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I like the way you have your lapboard set up, John. Pretty cool, and it has worked for 25 years. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting!
 
We've been paperless in our corporate flight department for about 4 years now. That's about 2000 hours and hundreds of approaches. We run iPads and ForeFlight. We have never had a problem or failure. Period. It's not something that I would loose any sleep over. That being said, when I'm flying by myself I have both my iPad and my iPhone up and running - just in case.
 
midlifeflyer said:
BTW, have to admit I had paper "crash" once. Wasn't properly secured and fell under the seat.
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I've had the "chart isn't in the book" crash. That might be less common if you look after your own Jepps, but in our world the books belong to the airplane, not the pilot.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
BTW, have to admit I had paper "crash" once. Wasn't properly secured and fell under the seat.
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I've had a binder fall out of the aircraft on approach. I heard the door pop open and when I turned to check it out the binder slid off my leg and out the door. :yikes:

I asked the controller to give me the textual. When he asked why just the FAF and the missed, I told him what happened. Him and a Delta pilot had a good hardy laugh.
 
gismo said:
And I LOVE not having to spend two hours each month fumbling with Jepp updates and not carrying 30 lbs of NACA books with me everywhere.

There was a time when I carried a small printer with me on trips so I could print a few plates for backup but I finally concluded that this was a solution to a problem where the consequences of the problem coupled with the likelihood of said problem were small enough to not be worth the bother.
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:yeahthat:

I haven't had an app crash while flying (knock on wood), but would have everything I needed off it well before the approach commenced so that the loss of it shouldn't be a big deal.
 
ARFlyer said:
I've had a binder fall out of the aircraft on approach. I heard the door pop open and when I turned to check it out the binder slid off my leg and out the door. :yikes:

I asked the controller to give me the textual. When he asked why just the FAF and the missed, I told him what happened. Him and a Delta pilot had a good hardy laugh.
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A Jepp binder could really hurt someone!! :yikes:
 
ARFlyer said:
I've had a binder fall out of the aircraft on approach. I heard the door pop open and when I turned to check it out the binder slid off my leg and out the door. :yikes:

I asked the controller to give me the textual. When he asked why just the FAF and the missed, I told him what happened. Him and a Delta pilot had a good hardy laugh.
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That is a great story! :lol:
 
somorris said:
I like the way you have your lapboard set up, John. Pretty cool, and it has worked for 25 years. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting!
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Thank's for the compliment :) ....actually it's not a lapboard, it's an approach book holder I made by modifying a "Wild Willys kneeboard" (remember those?) so I can clip it up on the yoke, pic #1 is the yoke clip, #2 is the "wild willys" in place and #3 is my lapboard with "L" chart and clearance pad clipped on :D
I velcro'd the stopwatch in place awhile ago while my Tag-Heuer IFR timer was back to the factory in Switzerland for repairs. As you can see I'm kind'a old fashioned, I also carry at least two #2 pencils, a pencil sharpener in the glove box and wouldn't go without my old E6-B "whizwheel" that I bought in a little pilot shop at the Army Aviation Training Center at Fort Rucker, Alabama in 1967.
 

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ChrisK said:
I use a yoke mounted mini backed up by a full sized ipad strapped to my leg backed up by a GNS430 backed up by my phone backed up by the sportys approach capable handheld backed up by a backup battery backed up by a second backup battery backed up by calling approach on one of my radios and saying "help!!!"

I intend to buy a Stratus at some point :)
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I normally do not have that much room.
I have had the iPad shut down at not the best times and I now carry a battery backup for the iPad. No electrical panel source for the iPad built into the plane.

Call me parinoid, I still print charts I think I'll need, the iPad is the back up.
Normally it is on the right seat or in the lap of the right seat pax.
 
BillTIZ said:
Call me parinoid, I still print charts I think I'll need, the iPad is the back up.
Normally it is on the right seat or in the lap of the right seat pax.
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The problem is on long cross country flights I have an idea of where I may make stops, but that's subject to change en route based on flight conditions. Printing charts for every potential landing site is impractical for many flights.
 
LDJones said:
The problem is on long cross country flights I have an idea of where I may make stops, but that's subject to change en route based on flight conditions. Printing charts for every potential landing site is impractical for many flights.
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Agreed. I have a Gen1 iPad, so I'm hoping most of the instability is based on age and the old iOS running the newer software.

This winter I will upgrade to the latest iPad, most likely wifi only and rely on an external gps source. The decision will be difficult not to get the 4G version to get the internal gps for backup. I may, but may not activate the service. I'm most often on wifi and can always use my phone for a hotspot in a pinch.

The other decision will be, stick with ForeFlight and get a stratus? Or go with a different program and more flexible gps/ADSB receiver.

AOPA FlyQ ? Any users?
 
BillTIZ said:
Agreed. I have a Gen1 iPad, so I'm hoping most of the instability is based on age and the old iOS running the newer software.

This winter I will upgrade to the latest iPad, most likely wifi only and rely on an external gps source. The decision will be difficult not to get the 4G version to get the internal gps for backup. I may, but may not activate the service. I'm most often on wifi and can always use my phone for a hotspot in a pinch.

The other decision will be, stick with ForeFlight and get a stratus? Or go with a different program and more flexible gps/ADSB receiver.

AOPA FlyQ ? Any users?
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AOPA FlyQ is pretty much gone.

In terms of other apps, the only minus I see to ForeFlight is the exclusive Stratus tie. (It is probably a plus as well) To me it's more about UI and personal familiarity. I think about switching each year but don't.

On your wifi point, I'm on my second wifi-only iPad and have not missed xG capability.
 
I have Jepps in the panel and NOS on the phone and iPad.

I still write down some very important features as part of my approach breifing:

MDA/DH and any step down fixes and their alts.
The beginning of the missed approach procedure.

The rest is usually redundant with the GPS's database.
 
BillTIZ said:
Agreed. I have a Gen1 iPad, so I'm hoping most of the instability is based on age and the old iOS running the newer software.

This winter I will upgrade to the latest iPad, most likely wifi only and rely on an external gps source. The decision will be difficult not to get the 4G version to get the internal gps for backup. I may, but may not activate the service. I'm most often on wifi and can always use my phone for a hotspot in a pinch.

The other decision will be, stick with ForeFlight and get a stratus? Or go with a different program and more flexible gps/ADSB receiver.

AOPA FlyQ ? Any users?
Click to expand...

I'm a ForeFlight/Stratus guy. I think the decision to tie ForeFlight to a single operating system (iOS) and the hardware (Stratus) to a single program likely increases the reliability and stability of the system overall.

That being said, the Stratus 2 seems like a great deal to me at $899. I think the Garmin GDL39 is the same price, however the battery in the Stratus lasts much longer.
 
If a critical component for a safe flight like an Ipad or IFR GPS goes recycle on an approach, that would constitute a go around. I always liked the set up that used a different instrument for the go around. Set it up before hand and just switch to navigating with it on the missed. Wow, the concept of "diversity" used in avionics!

If its an IPAD, and you still need info off the approach plate, its a go around also.

Seems like everything needs a backup no matter what you do.
 
airdale said:
when I'm shooting an approach the last thing I'm going to be doing is playing with a toy computer.
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Not sure if I have been lulled into complacency or just understand and accept the risks (maybe even drank the koolaid). But flying single pilot IFR approaches with Ipad mini on yoke (geo referenced plates are very nice to validate the GPS), a G430W in the dash and paper pad on knee makes for a pretty good combination in my cockpit.:wink2:

If the Ipad crashes, I always carry paper charts for airways and departing/arrival airport approach chart books (although not always current, so go ahead and shame me here) .

If I the ipad crashes on approach then it would be a missed using the 430 with a call to the tower confirming the procedures while I reached back and grabbed my paper chart (depending on conditions, if MVFR I would probably just continue lower for a visual) .

And yes If I had to land en-route in a state where I did not have the backup charts, well then I would have to deal with that.

I have been shamed for not having backups to backups and old school paper charts (go ahead and throw in digs here if feel its necessary), but I can say without a doubt that I am a better pilot using the technology I am accustomed to for 99% of my IFR flights.

The situational awareness I get by having much more info on the approach (opaque chart overlay), geo referenced location and flipping to runway info and back to chart with one tap "at night" without fiddling with flashlight gains me safety more often than the 1/2% risk of failure on final. So I choose the risk and fly approaches with the ipad.

Guess every group needs at least one cavalier individual to balance out the bell curve. :rolleyes:
 
airdale said:
Here is a snipped version of something I saw posted in another thread:

When I read this, my reaction was: "Huh?"

I like these tablets; they are great toys and the in-cockpit weather is wonderful. But ... when I'm shooting an approach the last thing I'm going to be doing is playing with a toy computer. In fact, I am much more likely to be playing with my tablet when I am flying right seat with a friend. Left seat, nice day, small or familiar destination airport, I may not even turn the thing on. (I am almost always flying with a G430 or G530.)

But I suspect that I am a bit unusual in this. Comments?
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I can't say that I've ever had my Jepp plates crash. Batteries don't die at inoportune times. Display hybrids don't die.

Yes, I have a Nexus 7. Yes, I have Garmin Pilot installed and the files are always updated. But, I trust my paper plates. The N7 has it's quirks and shooting an approach in the clag is NOT when I want to find them.
 
As a former member of the "Jepp Binder Club", the only thing I miss about updating the paper charts was the 6 pack of beer I would go through updating them. In hindsight I guess I miss the really old days when I had my secretary (it was politically correct to call them this back then) do them.

Even when not finishing off a 6 pack during this process, I would sometimes be on the road and not there to get the next revision delivery -- which then led to the painful process of reviewing chart NOTAMs to update the one I had in my possession or I put the revised chart in the wrong place in the binder and had to find it in the muck.

Paper was nice, but like everything else, it has drawbacks. As for the electronic versions. Love them. Like everything else that is electronic, you need to have a backup strategy. I carry a mini running Garmin Pilot on the yoke, a standalone full sized iPad with Garmin Pilot in the seat pocket and my iPhone running fltpln mobile with the current databases. The risk is minimal.
 
Until the latest update to Garmin Pilot for Android I didn't really worry too much about it, however, I would now keep an alternate device (running a different App like FlightPro or Avare or hell even Naviator) or keep set of paper plates available which defeats the purpose - it's going to take some time to regain my trust assuming they fix the current Charlie-Foxtrot that is 4.0.1.

'Gimp
 
Scott@KTYR said:
Always have Backups for everything!!!
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Agree, I haven't been flying any IFR so it was not a concern but I will be doing an IPC as part of my COMM-Multi-IFR add-on, and I am also thinking about flying to KS for Christmas this year and would need a backup for that.

I downloaded the free AVARE App onto my Galaxy Note 3 phone and must say for a free app it is surprisingly capable. Geo-referenced approach plates, full A/FD, flight planning capability, and obstacles - it is much more impressive than the last time I tried it (maybe a year ago).

Plus, it can accept and display ADS-B data so I might try and build up one of the SDR receviers - if I can find one that handles the 980UAT as well as 1090ES data.

'Gimp
 
Scott@KTYR said:
Always have Backups for everything!!!
Click to expand...

Exactly. And given that each of the 4 planes in the club are equipped differently, I need to cover all bases. The C-172N is /G. The C-182P is /A. The Arrow is /U. I don't recall what the C-172P is, but /A might not be too far from the mark (I hope it has DME, haven't flown it in ages). So I can count on built in approach plates (sort of) in the C-172N with the GNS-430W. It still doesn't give me altitudes to fly, so I need plates. N7 with GP has those, but the paper plates are still hanging in the clip on the yoke. Redundancy is great.

Heck, why is the TC an electric gyro while the AI and DG are vacuum? Eliminates a single point of failure. Same idea.
 
Brad Z said:
I also wait on upgrading OS and FF versions to make sure the bugs are worked out.
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Any update can introduce new bugs - Best plan if you're concerned about bugs is to wait one week from the release date to install it. If there isn't another version out by then, there probably aren't any bugs bad enough to have showed up.

OTOH, ForeFlight is so good at what they do that I'm confident enough to run most beta versions in actual IMC. I do still have the release version as a backup but I haven't had to switch over in flight yet. By the time it's released, it's generally rock solid. The exceptions are rare enough that they don't show up until the app is "in the wild" with regular people using it in ways that us testers may not... And they're quickly fixed.

But if you wait for the .0.1 version, you're not really increasing safety any. Wait a week after every version, even the .0.1's, and you'll have about as good of a level of safety as you can have.
 
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