Stupid public school

[PittsDriver]

No Child Left Behind is fundamentally flawed because "left behind" implies a destination every child should be headed toward. And while that might be the case, the destination has been far from characterized properly. It certainly isn't excellence in math and science for every single kid. No doubt, those are essential skills for some of our population but the world needs people good at other things and it's a waste to hold everyone back so that a future <insert your own unskilled job person here> can pass his calculus test.

 

[AuntPeggy]

I seriously doubt that the members of just this thread could reach a consensus on just how our children should be educated.

There are literally millions of Americans who want their input on just how it should be done, constantly squabbling about the matter. Meanwhile our children can barely understand the complexities of operating a toilet paper holder, or screwing the lid back on the peanut butter jar.

In our very noble efforts to leave no child behind, we are leaving them all behind, every one of them, in one way or another.

Spelling bee? If we stay the course we are presently on, spelling bees will soon be outlawed because they might hurt the self esteem of the children who were not selected. Each child will be taught through months of drilling to spell the word "cat" or perhaps "dog". Once having successfully completed this mind numbing task, they will be given a gold star and their high school diplomas. The school administration will be awarded huge bonuses for their brilliant administering. The teachers will be awarded "Atta Boys" (or Girls)

John

Completely absurd and not even entertaining. John, your opinions have gone off the deep end. There doesn't seem to be any way to get you to listen to yourself and realize that the world is not so simple that you can use blanket statements that all of "them" are evil and all of "us" are good. There may be answers to our problems, but painting wide swaths of people with a black brush belies the complexity of the problems.

Not all bureaucrats are lazy evil good-for-nothings. Most are hard-working, diligent, and caring. Not all teachers are worthless. I don't know of any school children who cannot screw on a peanut butter jar lid or operate a toilet paper holder. If you do, they probably have special needs that the school is addressing.

Sad. There was a time when you seemed like a reasonable human being.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

Actually, the more I think about it, why not have a few bureaucrats come and work in my shop as volunteers for a week, just so they can understand what I have to go through to earn the money to pay their salaries? I think what they will find the most shocking is that I have to produce a perfect product, every day, no matter how crappy I might feel. I don't get to make excuses.

John

As soon as you agree to volunteer to work for free for a week, as a "bureaucrat"

I have to produce a perfect product everyday too, otherwise I might:

1. Die
2. Be significantly injured;
3. Entertain a civil rights lawsuit as a defendant;
4. Kill or seriously injure someone else who Pays MY Salary!!1!

...or at the very least significantly impact the life of someone else besides myself.

If you screw up you lose a sale But keep telling us how the bureaucrats don't understand how hard your life is, particularly public school teachers.

Market capitalism has appeared to work wonders for private schools, for those parents who can afford them.

But when the business of business is to make money (not "create jobs", nor "educate our children", nor "stimulate the economy", nor "make America strong" but to make money), I'm not sure that I would be happy where educating every American child to some nth degree is simply the method and means to that ultimate goal of maximizing profit. Sorry

 

[dmccormack]

In the end, until we end this fallacy that "all children are equal" and "no child will be left behind" we will continue to slide into mediocrity, at best.

People ARE different, they learn different, and yes Virginia we have different intelligence levels.

We need longer school days that focus on math, science, reading and writing. I think music is a great tool as well. Football and all other sports should not be school endeavors but totally private leagues for AFTER school. Never gonna happen though, nope.

BS

Why?

Who is going to make that determination? Some panel? Some exam?

Sorry -- I'd rather 'waste" money on providing all children the opportunity to develop at the different rates and with different interests, and that comes with attempting -- and often failing -- a wide variety of ventures..

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I've found that when typing the word "public," I have to be careful as to its spelling.

What's amusing is how many appellate courts across the nation have misspelled "public defender." It makes me giggle everytime I see it. Tee hee hee.

Geesh - I tried finding a video of a funny old SNL skit that was a parody of old Mac ads (this would have been in the 80's) but jeez, an awful lot of people seem to spell it "pubic library."

 

[John Baker]

Completely absurd and not even entertaining. John, your opinions have gone off the deep end. There doesn't seem to be any way to get you to listen to yourself and realize that the world is not so simple that you can use blanket statements that all of "them" are evil and all of "us" are good. There may be answers to our problems, but painting wide swaths of people with a black brush belies the complexity of the problems.

Not all bureaucrats are lazy evil good-for-nothings. Most are hard-working, diligent, and caring. Not all teachers are worthless. I don't know of any school children who cannot screw on a peanut butter jar lid or operate a toilet paper holder. If you do, they probably have special needs that the school is addressing.

Sad. There was a time when you seemed like a reasonable human being.

C'mon, admit it, you had a great time responding to my lunacy, it had to be at least a little entertaining for you. I know I'm having fun. Isn't that what this is all about, entertaining ourselves with our self perceived superiorities over the lesser contributors?

John

 

[denverpilot]

Unless we get away from education being something you're "owed" and back to something you "desire", which is a big stretch from where we are as a Country morally and ethically, public/private and how they're paid for, won't matter much.

People that want knowledge will obtain it any way possible. People who want to be "trained" to do a job are not aspiring to be any smarter than the family dog. People who want to understand enough to train themselves, are a whole different non-canine breed.

And there's also learning to recognize what you don't know and having the proper people on your side/team to fill in the gaps in your knowledge.

Henry Ford was once placed on mock trial before Congress with the "charges" being that he couldn't possibly know enough to be trusted with his shareholder's money at his relatively low formal education level.

His reply that infuriated the Congresscritters was, "That's why I have the best telephone system money can buy." He was one of the first well-known businesspeople to have a multi-line telephone on his desk, and was proud of it. He could get answers to even the most vexing questions by startling some expert -- by being summoned to the local five and dime or wherever the local phone operator's switchboard was in the evening -- to take a phone call from Mr. Ford.

 

[Gary F]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKTfaro96dg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOnAIdIMoeI&feature=related

 

[airguy]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

Objection -- leading.

Sustained.

Money follows doing a good job in private industry. Money follows doing a poor job in government. Which one is going to be more motivated to do the right thing for you and/or your children? Which school do you want to send your kids to?

 

[airguy]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

Sounds wonderful! To help me understand this "performance" thing, could you explain how that is done equably and fairly? Say you have your first class of 20 students. They are well behaved, bright and eager. You prepare your lesson plan and go forth. At the end of the year, they ace their exams - WOW, your performance was excellent.

Next year, same lesson plan, half the students couldn't care less, another quarter are disruptive and at the end of the year, they miserably fail their exams - What was your performance? Sounds like you would fire yourself, or is it not your fault?

Teaching performance is a bit trickier than most.

Gary

Simple - you don't wait until the end of the year to solve your problems in the class rooms, the entire premise of your supposition is intentionally flawed and misleading. The disruptive kids get one warning, and then they get tossed out. The non-disruptive ones that don't care can pass or fail as they wish - not my problem - but I won't stop teaching the bright ones while waiting for the dumb ones. The dumb ones will (or maybe will not) make it through, and will get a job with their name on their shirt while aspiring to someday be able to buy their own double-wide. The bright kids will get top honors and move on in life, wearing suits and ties and telling the dumb ones what to do while writing them paychecks on Friday. My educational institution will eventually be a success because parents will realize that we don't dumb down the curriculum and teach to the lowest common denominator, and those that actually WANT to succeed will attend, while those that don't care will go to your public schools to be taught by teachers that don't care. Real-world example - why is Harvard better than your local community college?

Is that "fair"? Nope. Life ain't fair. Build a bridge and get over it.

People are not all the same, as has already been pointed out. We need workers, and we need thinkers. The public schools of 30 years ago knew this, and taught kids accordingly. The ones that absolutely are not ever going to be thinkers were taught a trade so they could be capable of feeding themselves instead of relying on welfare. The thinkers were prepped for college and sent there. The sooner we get over all this "Treat them all alike" BS the better we'll be - they are not all alike. They never have been, they never will be, and pretending they are only hurts the best of them.

 

[dmccormack]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

Simple - you don't wait until the end of the year to solve your problems in the class rooms, the entire premise of your supposition is intentionally flawed and misleading. The disruptive kids get one warning, and then they get tossed out. The non-disruptive ones that don't care can pass or fail as they wish - not my problem - but I won't stop teaching the bright ones while waiting for the dumb ones. The dumb ones will (or maybe will not) make it through, and will get a job with their name on their shirt while aspiring to someday be able to buy their own double-wide. The bright kids will get top honors and move on in life, wearing suits and ties and telling the dumb ones what to do while writing them paychecks on Friday. My educational institution will eventually be a success because parents will realize that we don't dumb down the curriculum and teach to the lowest common denominator, and those that actually WANT to succeed will attend, while those that don't care will go to your public schools to be taught by teachers that don't care.

People are not all the same, as has already been pointed out. We need workers, and we need thinkers. The public schools of 30 years ago knew this, and taught kids accordingly. The ones that absolutely are not ever going to be thinkers were taught a trade so they could be capable of feeding themselves instead of relying on welfare. The thinkers were prepped for college and sent there. The sooner we get over all this "Treat them all alike" BS the better we'll be - they are not all alike. They never have been, they never will be, and pretending they are only hurts the best of them.

Hmmm....

While I agree with the premise that competition is good for schools, my counter-argument is that the measures of performance used in schools are not predictive of future success.

Ask the Japanese how successful the whole exam-for-life program is.

Another data point to consider: The guys I know who own and fly very nice airplanes wear names on shirts -- they own welding, HVAC, drilling, automative, and wood working shops.

 

[airguy]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

Hmmm....

While I agree with the premise that competition is good for schools, my counter-argument is that the measures of performance used in schools are not predictive of future success.

True statement - that is why you need competent direction (public school board or private fiat) to determine an appropriate curriculum and teach it effectively. Today's public schools have demonstrated abject failure of this concept. A private institution would have to look at graduation rates and college entrant percentages to judge the accuracy of their work - and NOT in a "All our kids got out! Yay! We did good!" kind of way.

Another data point to consider: The guys I know who own and fly very nice airplanes wear names on shirts -- they own welding, HVAC, drilling, automative, and wood working shops.

A generalization on my part perhaps - but I believe it drove home my point sufficiently well that even you picked it up.

 

[Everskyward]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

Simple - you don't wait until the end of the year to solve your problems in the class rooms, the entire premise of your supposition is intentionally flawed and misleading. The disruptive kids get one warning, and then they get tossed out. The non-disruptive ones that don't care can pass or fail as they wish - not my problem - but I won't stop teaching the bright ones while waiting for the dumb ones. The dumb ones will (or maybe will not) make it through, and will get a job with their name on their shirt while aspiring to someday be able to buy their own double-wide. The bright kids will get top honors and move on in life, wearing suits and ties and telling the dumb ones what to do while writing them paychecks on Friday. My educational institution will eventually be a success because parents will realize that we don't dumb down the curriculum and teach to the lowest common denominator, and those that actually WANT to succeed will attend, while those that don't care will go to your public schools to be taught by teachers that don't care.

People are not all the same, as has already been pointed out. We need workers, and we need thinkers. The public schools of 30 years ago knew this, and taught kids accordingly. The ones that absolutely are not ever going to be thinkers were taught a trade so they could be capable of feeding themselves instead of relying on welfare. The thinkers were prepped for college and sent there. The sooner we get over all this "Treat them all alike" BS the better we'll be - they are not all alike. They never have been, they never will be, and pretending they are only hurts the best of them.

You are going to kick all the dumb and disruptive kids out of your classroom and where are they going to go? Do you want them on the street? There are compulsory school attendance laws in every state. Also, the idea that people who are engaged in trades aren't "thinkers" perpetuates the notion that going into a trade is just a fallback position if you aren't smart enough to be a "thinker". Some very smart people are more attracted to hands on type jobs because it's better fit with their personality.

I agree that education shouldn't be a "one size fits all" proposition but I don't necessarily see that it is. A number of my relatives are or have been big city public school teachers and you can't tell me they don't care about the kids.

 

[dmccormack]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

A generalization on my part perhaps - but I believe it drove home my point sufficiently well that even you picked it up.

No, it was so broadly ignorant it had to be contradicted.

 

[dmccormack]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

You are going to kick all the dumb and disruptive kids out of your classroom and where are they going to go? Do you want them on the street? There are compulsory school attendance laws in every state. Also, the idea that people who are engaged in trades aren't "thinkers" perpetuates the notion that going into a trade is just a fallback position if you aren't smart enough to be a "thinker". Some very smart people are more attracted to hands on type jobs because it's better fit with their personality.

I agree that education shouldn't be a "one size fits all" proposition but I don't necessarily see that it is. A number of my relatives are or have been big city public school teachers and you can't tell me they don't care about the kids.

Agree.

While I am in favor of school choice, our society has consistently agreed that universal, free education is beneficial to all.

How this is delivered, and what the content and obejctives should be -- well that's open for debate.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

You are going to kick all the dumb and disruptive kids out of your classroom and where are they going to go? Do you want them on the street? There are compulsory school attendance laws in every state. Also, the idea that people who are engaged in trades aren't "thinkers" perpetuates the notion that going into a trade is just a fallback position if you aren't smart enough to be a "thinker". Some very smart people are more attracted to hands on type jobs because it's better fit with their personality.

I agree that education shouldn't be a "one size fits all" proposition but I don't necessarily see that it is. A number of my relatives are or have been big city public school teachers and you can't tell me they don't care about the kids.

That's kind of what I was thinking. "Let's kick the dumb/unworthy ones out of the classrooms" only gets them...out of the classrooms. While I don't necessarily have a problem with the concept of a more "particularized treatment" based on an individual's particular attributes at all (I was, and remain, a strong proponent of the magnet school idea; and as cruel as it may sound, I don't have a problem with Judge Smails' position on the matter), it doesn't address the bigger problem and perhaps creates additional ones.

The "problem" children under discussion - be it bad grades or bad behavior - are very frequently that way because of a lack of care or attention on the part of parents (go show up for a day of juvenile court and consider who's not in the courtroom). They're not, of necessity, born either stupid or disruptive (and, when it comes to the former, keep in mind that neither grades nor schooling determine, and don't necessarily reflect, intelligence). The cause and effect is very obvious. While there aren't any easy answers to it, the right answer is not, in any way, "kick them out of school, too." I don't have a problem with kicking problem people out of traditional schools, but any approach has to be slightly more comprehensive.

This isn't some strawberries and cinammon "let's save the world" type of issue. This is because I, and all of us, have vested interests in not having guns stuck in our faces, not paying for wards of the state (everything from welfare to prisons); while also having a vested interest in our fellow citizens being as capable as they're capable of being.

Something else worth keeping in mind, when considering teacher/student performance, is that both the potter and the clay are worthy of examination.

 

[Gary]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

Simple - ** big snip *** Build a bridge and get over it.

Simple - yes, your proposal is. You would basically ensure your performance by only teaching to the "best and brightest". That's so simple even a caveman could do it. If one wants to have an educational experience of being only with the best, there are a multitude of private schools out there - of course one has to pay for that.

The sooner we get over all this "Treat them all alike" BS the better we'll be - they are not all alike. They never have been, they never will be, and pretending they are only hurts the best of them.

The current educational system really doesn't treat all student alike.

The "problem" children under discussion - be it bad grades or bad behavior - are very frequently that way because of a lack of care or attention on the part of parents (go show up for a day of juvenile court and consider who's not in the courtroom). They're not, of necessity, born either stupid or disruptive (and, when it comes to the former, keep in mind that neither grades nor schooling determine, and don't necessarily reflect, intelligence). The cause and effect is very obvious. While there aren't any easy answers to it, the right answer is not, in any way, "kick them out of school, too.".

This!! Educational success, or failure, starts in the home. Without parents involved, the chances of a student doing well is drastically reduced.

Gary

 

[airguy]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

Simple - yes, your proposal is. You would basically ensure your performance by only teaching to the "best and brightest". That's so simple even a caveman could do it. If one wants to have an educational experience of being only with the best, there are a multitude of private schools out there - of course one has to pay for that.

Funny - I kinda thought that's what we were discussing here? It's certainly what I had in mind when I wrote that, yes.

Educational success, or failure, starts in the home. Without parents involved, the chances of a student doing well is drastically reduced.

Gary

I fully agree - but I don't have any ideas for how to solve that problem. We have to make people accountable for themselves and get out of the nanny-state mentality to make that happen, and I think this country has gone too far down the California-flowerchild path for that to ever happen.

You are going to kick all the dumb and disruptive kids out of your classroom and where are they going to go? Do you want them on the street? There are compulsory school attendance laws in every state.

I'm talking about private schools here - not the gov't-run daycare that we have now. So yes, I would treat them like any decent college treats their students - if you don't want to be here, then I don't want you to be here either. Have a nice day, the door is over there.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

...
This!! Educational success, or failure, starts in the home. Without parents involved, the chances of a student doing well is drastically reduced.

Gary

What I've found is that if parents are willing to put their kids first - and that doesn't necessarily mean "pushing" them, but just putting their interests before the parent[']s' - the kids stand a really good chance of turning out reasonably well.

That's obviously not always true. Nor does it mean that those kids are going to grow up to be perfect. Just that they'll likely turn out pretty well, and stand a good chance of passing that on down the chain. At the end of the day, that's really all you can ask, I think.

There are times where I wonder if being a good parent isn't the single best thing that any one person can ever do.

[edit:] Of course, I think this is ultimately a problem that has no solution. It's as much a part of human nature as anything else. Doesn't mean that we can't make efforts to reduce it or minimize it, though.

 

[dmccormack]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

There are times where I wonder if being a good parent isn't the single best thing that any one person can ever do.

I can tell you this for certain -- it's the most difficult, with the least tangible rewards.

We have three grown children -- all were late bloomers. Our oldest daughter rebelled in every way possible, yet she was never banished or shunned (Lancaster County lingo, there).

Now she's completing her RN, is married, stable, and doing well.

And she calls us every day.

 

[airguy]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

What I've found is that if parents are willing to put their kids first - and that doesn't necessarily mean "pushing" them, but just putting their interests before the parent[']s' - the kids stand a really good chance of turning out reasonably well.

That's obviously not always true. Nor does it mean that those kids are going to grow up to be perfect. Just that they'll likely turn out pretty well, and stand a good chance of passing that on down the chain. At the end of the day, that's really all you can ask, I think.

There are times where I wonder if being a good parent isn't the single best thing that any one person can ever do.

[edit:] Of course, I think this is ultimately a problem that has no solution. It's as much a part of human nature as anything else. Doesn't mean that we can't make efforts to reduce it or minimize it, though.

I agree completely - I just don't know how to get this country back to that point where we used to be. My parents were always wanting to know where I was, what was I doing, and who was I doing it with - and frequently checked out my story to make sure I was telling the truth. I got my butt beat on a regular basis when I screwed up, and usually deserved it. I was taught early on that life isn't fair so just deal with it, you are not "owed" anything, and you are responsible for your own self. I never doubted for one second that my family loved me unconditionally, even when I was being corrected for bad behavior. I turned out pretty well because of them and their realistic expectations. Too many parents today are simply tuned out.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

I can tell you this for certain -- it's the most difficult, with the least tangible rewards.

We have three grown children -- all were late bloomers. Our oldest daughter rebelled in every way possible, yet she was never banished or shunned (Lancaster County lingo, there).

Now she's completing her RN, is married, stable, and doing well.

And she calls us every day.

I've seen some of your other posts about your kids, and it sure sounds like they turned out well.

I can't say that I call my folks every day, but it's a few times a week at the minimum. It's funny how, somewhere between 16-20, your parents suddenly become your friends. It's a few decades getting there, but I figure that's a decent turnout - for everyone involved.

 

[JeffDG]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

I've seen some of your other posts about your kids, and it sure sounds like they turned out well.

I can't say that I call my folks every day, but it's a few times a week at the minimum. It's funny how, somewhere between 16-20, your parents suddenly become your friends. It's a few decades getting there, but I figure that's a decent turnout - for everyone involved.

My dad has gotten smarter every year since I turned 25 somehow.

 

[Gary]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

Now she's completing her RN, is married, stable, and doing well.

And she calls us every day.

Success! You get to rate your perfomance excellent.

Funny how parenting and teaching are so intertwined and similar.

Gary

 

[ScottM]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

My dad has gotten smarter every year since I turned 25 somehow.

Not my dad. He died when I was 25.

My step-dad surely did not get smarter, but I grew to respect him a lot more and we eventually became good friends. I held his hand when he died a couple of years ago.

Mom pretty much raised me. While she was far from the perfect parent and let me have all sorts of freedom she did not hover over me nor did she hit me. But I always valued education. More than anyone in my family I wanted to keep learning as much as possible. My dad had regretted not finishing college after the war and I think that regret drove me to basically be in school my entire life. I could say that a lot of what I wanted out of life was to not make the same mistakes as my parents had done.

 

[John Baker]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

I'm wondering if our system of forced education for kids in K-12 might have something to do with our high percentage of poor performers. Kids are given a choice in San Diego, either go to school, or go to juvenile hall (reform school)

I don't believe kids have the feeling of they are lucky to be there. It is more that they have to be there, so they attend, as the law requires them to. There is nothing special about school for many of them, so they do the bare minimum that will get them by. I'm not saying all kids, but rather a high percentage of them.

I'm thinking that kids in foreign countries might think attending school as a privilege, therefor may be more attentive in class and their studies. I'm just guessing though.
For my own part, for the brief few years I attended school, I was bored to death. I had around a C+ average and zero motivation.

John

 

[tdager]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

This!! Educational success, or failure, starts in the home. Without parents involved, the chances of a student doing well is drastically reduced.

Gary

Almost universally EVERYONE agrees with this. What no one can say, or is willing to say/do, how to fix the problem.

Sorry peeps, but if the parents "do not care" there is not much we as society can do about it unless we are willing to change parental laws.

 

[airguy]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

Almost universally EVERYONE agrees with this. What no one can say, or is willing to say/do, how to fix the problem.

Sorry peeps, but if the parents "do not care" there is not much we as society can do about it unless we are willing to change parental laws.

Right. Like it or not we have to deal with the kids that are a product of negligent parents. Some of them can be reached and turned around, but sadly there are some that are beyond help. I am NOT in favor of holding back the front of the line while the back of the line tries to "catch up." Some of them will always be on the left side of the bell curve.

 

[PittsDriver]

Sorry -- I'd rather 'waste" money on providing all children the opportunity to develop at the different rates and with different interests, and that comes with attempting -- and often failing -- a wide variety of ventures..

Provide the opportunity/available to every kid - definitely. And that's hardly a waste. But to dumb down the system for everyone to the least common denominator is to take opportunities away from so many more. Give a kid the opportunity and if they (and their parents) don't have their act together enough to take advantage of the opportunity, then leave 'em behind says I. Not discarded from the system but on a different track. The proper system of education lets every kid reach for a bar set at a level that think they might not reach and then get them there - different bars for different kids defined by their level of commitment and ability.

 

[airguy]

Sorry -- I'd rather 'waste" money on providing all children the opportunity to develop at the different rates and with different interests, and that comes with attempting -- and often failing -- a wide variety of ventures..

By that logic I should insist that you pay for my ATP training, even though I have almost zero desire to fly for an airline. It's up to me whether or not I pass or fail, but you should still provide it to me so I have the opportunity to develop.

Of course that's not realistic - but my point is, where do you draw the line? I say basic education K-12 is required, yes - but let the parents have a choice of where to send their kids. If they want to put them in public school, then they pay school taxes. If they want to send them to private school, then give them their school taxes back and show them the door.

 

[Everskyward]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

I'm talking about private schools here - not the gov't-run daycare that we have now. So yes, I would treat them like any decent college treats their students - if you don't want to be here, then I don't want you to be here either. Have a nice day, the door is over there.

I think everyone else was talking about public schools. Obviously you can kick a kid out of a private school. I wouldn't know much about private schools though since I went to government run day care from K-bachelor's degree.

 

[ScottM]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

Right. Like it or not we have to deal with the kids that are a product of negligent parents. Some of them can be reached and turned around, but sadly there are some that are beyond help. I am NOT in favor of holding back the front of the line while the back of the line tries to "catch up." Some of them will always be on the left side of the bell curve.

Not all kids who are bad learner are the product of "negligent parents." Many parents did not get a good education themselves are not wise in the ways of learning. They often times do not possess nor realize that they are deficient in the skills needed to be a good performer in school. Schools will still need to attempt to teach those kids as well and that means some extra work which of course equals more needed funding, if we are to ever hope to break the cycle.

 

[dmccormack]

By that logic I should insist that you pay for my ATP training, even though I have almost zero desire to fly for an airline. It's up to me whether or not I pass or fail, but you should still provide it to me so I have the opportunity to develop.

Of course that's not realistic - but my point is, where do you draw the line? I say basic education K-12 is required, yes - but let the parents have a choice of where to send their kids. If they want to put them in public school, then they pay school taxes. If they want to send them to private school, then give them their school taxes back and show them the door.

Reductionist absurdism isn't argument -- expect maybe in French modern art?

Anyway, "school" is not merely (or I should say, "should not" merely) be a processing plant where raw material is routed and formed in accordance with guidelines and rules.

How many of we vaunted degree holders changed majors or changed classes based on shifting interest of experience?

Face it -- "education" in any form is "wasteful" , i.e., you can't Six Sigma-ize it.

 

[dmccormack]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

Not all kids who are bad learner are the product of "negligent parents." Many parents did not get a good education themselves are not wise in the ways of learning. They often times do not possess nor realize that they are deficient in the skills needed to be a good performer in school. Schools will still need to attempt to teach those kids as well and that means some extra work which of course equals more needed funding, if we are to ever hope to break the cycle.

I'm with you until the "therefore more funding" conclusion.

There is no evidence that $ per student = "Best" Education

There is certanly a corollary, but that does not make it axiomatic.

 

[ScottM]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

I'm with you until the "therefore more funding" conclusion.

There is no evidence that $ per student = "Best" Education

There is certanly a corollary, but that does not make it axiomatic.

Yeah but we do not see the Ivy League giving out coupons nor do we see Andover, Phillips nor Exeter reducing tuition. So until then I think the corollary is pretty much the fact of the matter.

 

[dmccormack]

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

Yeah but we do not see the Ivy League giving out coupons nor do we see Andover, Phillips nor Exeter reducing tuition. So until then I think the corollary is pretty much the fact of the matter.

Not really -- those graduates have an entire network of connections and support that skew the results towards the "success" end of the scale.

Surely you've encountered graduates of the vaunted petri-dishes of intellectualism and realized there's not much "learning" going on there?

 

[Everskyward]

How many of we vaunted degree holders changed majors or changed classes based on shifting interest of experience?

How many people turned out many years later to be not what you expected? I went to a HS class reunion last year and found out the the former class president had plead guilty to theft from a non-profit and sexual harrassment of one of his students (he was a teacher). The star QB on the football team had been arrested for breaking into former President Reagan's property. Oh, and the disruptive kid, he's now a successful lawyer.

 

[dmccormack]

How many people turned out many years later to be not what you expected? I went to a HS class reunion last year and found out the the former class president had plead guilty to theft from a non-profit and sexual harrassment of one of his students (he was a teacher). The star QB on the football team had been arrested for breaking into former President Reagan's property. Oh, and the disruptive kid, he's now a successful lawyer.

Exactly!

I contend that School Success <> Life Success

And success is *not* only getting into med/law/engineering school.

 

[AdamZ]

A corollary to this lesson might be that the primary reason you should do something is for your own sense of satisfaction and self-improvement and not for public recognition by others.

Yeah try telling that to a 10 year old who worked her butt off just to be able to compete. What happened to Erin STINKS an I hope the school apologizes.

 

[Everskyward]

Yeah try telling that to a 10 year old who worked her butt off just to be able to compete. What happened to Erin STINKS an I hope the school apologizes.

Not saying it doesn't stink or that the school shouldn't apologize but I think that there can be a lesson learned from disappointment, especially disappointment with others.