Stupid public school

Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

AuntPeggy said:
John -
What about this idea?
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This is a wonderful idea, with just one small problem; I have to work. I have to work to support myself and also pay my much wasted taxes. I work with my hands, if I do not work, I do not get paid. Bureaucrats, on the other hand, make considerably more money than myself, and will get paid if they work or not.

Actually, the more I think about it, why not have a few bureaucrats come and work in my shop as volunteers for a week, just so they can understand what I have to go through to earn the money to pay their salaries? I think what they will find the most shocking is that I have to produce a perfect product, every day, no matter how crappy I might feel. I don't get to make excuses.

John
 
I have no kids, so no real dog in this hunt. But I do have a teacher sister and sister-in-law, and another SIL in a CC testing lab. Listening to them talk it sounds like the so-called mainstreaming, leveling, 'no child left behind' is a real problem when trying to teach kids.

Example: Kid continuously disruptive and disrespectful in class. Can't do much, it take a consensus of three teachers before the first step is taken. Several steps before the other kids actually get a break. I'd have been out in the hall the first day.

I could go on but won't. Not allowing anyone to be different bring every child to the average or below. With no consequences why do better?

Note: The folks come from NM, CA, and WA
 
Tom-D said:
It ain't for every body but>>>>>>>> http://homeschooling.about.com/od/gettingstarted/a/homeschool4you.htm

I once asked a faculty member of the UW, why 50% of the students were Asian? he responded, "because they pay cash."
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One has to be home to homeschool.

I feel strongly that most American parents are glad the school system is there for free babysitting. When that is your attitude it is no wonder it is left afloat at the mercy of those few who are at the extremes of the spectrum.
 
Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

Gary said:
Pretty harsh. Tell you what... go volunteer in an elementary or high school for two weeks. Take part in the actual effort being made. After that come back and give us your appraisal. Until then, your opinion is just that, an outsider looking in and drawing conclusions without facts....

There is lots of things wrong with our educational system, what you quoted above just isn't the problem.

Gary
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I couldn't do my wife's job. She teaches 6th grade, mostly math. The math I can handle, the 6th graders are a different story. You'd be reading about me on the front page of the paper, and it wouldn't be a good story. It takes a special kind of person to do that work.

Oh, and is she any good? She has former students come back saying they wish their current teachers explained things so clearly.
 
I've found that when typing the word "public," I have to be careful as to its spelling.

What's amusing is how many appellate courts across the nation have misspelled "public defender." It makes me giggle everytime I see it. Tee hee hee.
 
murphey said:
There was a great segment on NPR Wednesday afternoon comparing US and Asian K-12 programs. China has mandated K-9 for all children and within the next couple years, that will be K-12. China realized the failure/lack of education during the Cutural Revolution (when schools were shut down) is an enormous deficit and is working to fix it. There are nation-wide standards, quite high in fact.

Japan, Korea, Singapore, China - few if any outside activities, students are expected to spend as much time studying and doing homework (if not more) as actual contact time, longer school days, longer school year.

Another factor involving China - teachers are considered a national resource, they get preference when applying to college/university, are well paid.

And there's no local interference.

This from an outside, non-US organization, BTW.
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There is also a Planet Money podcast (the latest I believe) where an economist is estimating that a good teacher with an average sized class contributes $500k per year to America's future economy over an "average" teacher. For which they are paid about 10% of that ;)
 
ScottM said:
Because private schools never do anything wrong or make mistakes?
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No - but being a private enterprise (instead of a gov't entity) they will FIRE teachers that don't perform, and will lose customers if they don't do a good job. Government-run programs are the exact opposite.

What happens when a government organizations does it's job poorly? They dump more funds into it to "improve" the organization. Did you do your job well? If so, then no additional funding is needed. Where is the incentive to a good job? They are blatantly rewarding poor behavior, with OUR dollars.

[/rant]
 
Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

ScottM said:
And moving to private for profit school would mean that the education system would not be about the money?
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Correct. It would then be about PERFORMANCE, because without performance they will lose their customer set and then there will be NO MONEY.
 
There will never, ever, be a solution to the many problems inherent with providing "free" public education. We are a democracy, we all get to stir the pot and add our own ingredients to the brew. Then, we expect by some miracle, it will actually taste good. It will not, no matter what we do.

China is not a democracy, they do not have to please anyone except the central committee, a committee that explains to every school, exactly what they will accomplish, and when.

We can not hope to ever come close to winning the educational race against such a system.

John
 
John Baker said:
We can not hope to ever come close to winning the educational race against such a system.

John
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To be frank -- who cares? Is there a "race"? And if so, are we sure the finish line measures real performance?

FWIW -- how many High School Heroes end up bypassed by the quiet kids in the back?

I barely made it through HS since I was bored out of my mind and was tracked through all the level 4 classes (Translated: "Dummies").

I attended college after 4 years in the Air Force and completed a BA in 2 years.

It's not just what the test scores show.
 
Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

airguy said:
Correct. It would then be about PERFORMANCE, because without performance they will lose their customer set and then there will be NO MONEY.
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So private for profit industry is not about money, just doing a good job?
 
John Baker said:
China is not a democracy, they do not have to please anyone except the central committee, a committee that explains to every school, exactly what they will accomplish, and when.
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China has a very layered government with plenty of control at the provincial, city governments, and special administrative zones. You are presuming something without actually checking your facts. As an example the city of Shanghai is almost run as a separate entity. The mayor of that city is considered as one of the most powerful people in the civilian government.

The government of the administrative zones of Hong Kong and Macao has far more autonomy to set their own rules and laws than people in Heibei, Shezhuan, Lioaning or the any other province.
 
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ScottM said:
China has a very layered government with plenty of control at the provincial and city governments. You are presuming something without actually checking your facts.
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Your right, I am making presumptions, and I appreciate your enlightening me. China sounds exactly like the U.S. the way you explain it. If that is the case, then why are their children ahead of ours academically? It is now obvious to me, after your explanation, that China has just as many people stirring the pot as we do, parents threatening to sue and such.

John
 
John Baker said:
China sounds exactly like the U.S. the way you explain it. If that is the case, then why are their children ahead of ours academically?
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In general the Chinese value education and those that are elite. We tend to demonize the elite. We almost celebrate the average and mediocre.

But that is just a quickie answer and there is of course a more nuanced and complicated answer. Our system tends to not want to leave anyone behind and is trying to elevate all to college. Someone earlier in this thread talked about how we deal with kids that cannot perform or are disruptive. The school is constrained by the parents and other tax payers to deliver 100% successful students 100% of the time. The reality is that some may never get to college level. We need to steer them to a different track, we need to have a track for those with behavioral issues. Until we recognize that, then we are teaching to the lowest common denominator and have set up our system to fail. I was very sad to read the article last week about how undergrads at college are barely able to do any critical thinking.
 
John Baker said:
Your right, I am making presumptions, and I appreciate your enlightening me. China sounds exactly like the U.S. the way you explain it. If that is the case, then why are their children ahead of ours academically? It is now obvious to me, after your explanation, that China has just as many people stirring the pot as we do, parents threatening to sue and such.
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Maybe their culture is different. Didn't you read about that whole Dragon-mother controversy? Or maybe it was Tiger-mother. Lets see if I can find it.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/01/21/DDS61HC6NT.DTL&feed=rss.entertainment
 
Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

ScottM said:
And moving to private for profit school would mean that the education system would not be about the money?
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What is money Scott? Not poking to poke, but what is money? We humans have crafted a "thing" that represents value, in this case we call it money, represented by coins and bills.

Now money can be given, or taken, a gift or a curse, but for most of us, we "earn" money by trading our most precious of commodities, our time, for money. Few people work for free, even the most charitable and giving person gets some money for their efforts, if nothing else just to simply feed, clothe, and shelter themselves.

So I never understood why "money" is so bad. Pure pursuit of money at all costs perhaps, but money itself, and the simple pursuit of it, is not evil or bad.
 
Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

tdager said:
What is money Scott? Not poking to poke, but what is money? We humans have crafted a "thing" that represents value, in this case we call it money, represented by coins and bills.

Now money can be given, or taken, a gift or a curse, but for most of us, we "earn" money by trading our most precious of commodities, our time, for money. Few people work for free, even the most charitable and giving person gets some money for their efforts, if nothing else just to simply feed, clothe, and shelter themselves.

So I never understood why "money" is so bad. Pure pursuit of money at all costs perhaps, but money itself, and the simple pursuit of it, is not evil or bad.
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Not at all sure what point you are trying to make. I was asking John about his theory of what is wrong with public education is that it is all about the money. Does that then mean private education is better because it is NOT about money?
 
ejensen said:
I have no kids, so no real dog in this hunt. But I do have a teacher sister and sister-in-law, and another SIL in a CC testing lab. Listening to them talk it sounds like the so-called mainstreaming, leveling, 'no child left behind' is a real problem when trying to teach kids.

Example: Kid continuously disruptive and disrespectful in class. Can't do much, it take a consensus of three teachers before the first step is taken. Several steps before the other kids actually get a break. I'd have been out in the hall the first day.

I could go on but won't. Not allowing anyone to be different bring every child to the average or below. With no consequences why do better?

Note: The folks come from NM, CA, and WA
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In the end, until we end this fallacy that "all children are equal" and "no child will be left behind" we will continue to slide into mediocrity, at best.

People ARE different, they learn different, and yes Virginia we have different intelligence levels.

We need longer school days that focus on math, science, reading and writing. I think music is a great tool as well. Football and all other sports should not be school endeavors but totally private leagues for AFTER school. Never gonna happen though, nope.
 
Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

John Baker said:
No, my opinion is that of a taxpayer appraising what he is getting for his money. What are we, something like 57th in worldwide educational standings?John
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Fair enough. As a taxpayer you aren't satisfied on your taxes rate of return. How did you evaluate that? More importantly, what do you believe should be done about it? Have you attended a schol board meeting? Gone to a PTA meeting? Expressed your concern to your local representative? Taught a class in your profession or skill?

John Baker said:
This is a wonderful idea, with just one small problem; I have to work. I have to work to support myself and also pay my much wasted taxes. I work with my hands, if I do not work, I do not get paid. Bureaucrats, on the other hand, make considerably more money than myself, and will get paid if they work or not.
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Somehow thought business was slow... Of course there are afterschool classes, evening school activities, sports events.... even a few hours a week would be greatly appreciated by any school. If you believe that all teachers are bureaucrats, spending some time with a few may give you a different idea. However, in fairness, you will encounter a few people that do seem to fit your opinion, just like every other organization, there are good ones and there are not so good ones.

John Baker said:
Actually, the more I think about it, why not have a few bureaucrats come and work in my shop as volunteers for a week, just so they can understand what I have to go through to earn the money to pay their salaries? I think what they will find the most shocking is that I have to produce a perfect product, every day, no matter how crappy I might feel. I don't get to make excuses.John
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Yes, I can understand why no one has volunteered.

Gary
 
John Baker said:
There will never, ever, be a solution to the many problems inherent with providing "free" public education. We are a democracy, we all get to stir the pot and add our own ingredients to the brew. Then, we expect by some miracle, it will actually taste good. It will not, no matter what we do.

China is not a democracy, they do not have to please anyone except the central committee, a committee that explains to every school, exactly what they will accomplish, and when.

We can not hope to ever come close to winning the educational race against such a system.

John
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This might be an appropriate time to quote some lines from West Wing

"(in the next-to-last episode of seacon 1) Sam Seaborn says:
Education is the silver bullet
Education is everything
We don't need little changes
We need gigantic monumental changes
Schools should be palaces
The competition for the best teachers should be fierce
They should be making six-figure saliers
Schools should be incredibly expensive for the Government
and absolutely free of charge to its citizens, just like National Defense
That's my position







I just haven't figured out how to do it yet... "
 
Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

airguy said:
Correct. It would then be about PERFORMANCE, because without performance they will lose their customer set and then there will be NO MONEY.
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Sounds wonderful! :D To help me understand this "performance" thing, could you explain how that is done equably and fairly? Say you have your first class of 20 students. They are well behaved, bright and eager. You prepare your lesson plan and go forth. At the end of the year, they ace their exams - WOW, your performance was excellent.

Next year, same lesson plan, half the students couldn't care less, another quarter are disruptive and at the end of the year, they miserably fail their exams - What was your performance? Sounds like you would fire yourself, or is it not your fault?

Teaching performance is a bit trickier than most.

Gary
 
Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

Gary said:
Sounds wonderful! :D To help me understand this "performance" thing, could you explain how that is done equably and fairly? Say you have your first class of 20 students. They are well behaved, bright and eager. You prepare your lesson plan and go forth. At the end of the year, they ace their exams - WOW, your performance was excellent.

Next year, same lesson plan, half the students couldn't care less, another quarter are disruptive and at the end of the year, they miserably fail their exams - What was your performance? Sounds like you would fire yourself, or is it not your fault?

Teaching performance is a bit trickier than most.

Gary
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Easy....you drop the farce that everyone is equal, tell the students that do not care they can shape up or ship out, and move on.
 
Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

tdager said:
Easy....you drop the farce that everyone is equal, tell the students that do not care they can shape up or ship out, and move on.
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OK - how do you handle the ones that truly have learning disabilities, what about the ones who truly want to learn but have problems at home.

Is it in our best long term good to tell a 10 year old - shape up or ship out? Do they really understand that concept? Where do they move on to?

You are correct that we are not all equal, not sure that I agree that schools set up their plans with this as one of the guiding concepts.

Gary
 
rpadula said:
LOL. How did you ever get to be an attorney? :rofl:
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The only thing that saved me was refraining from a westlaw search for a misspelling of "county." I do have *some* dignity.:goofy:
 
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John Baker said:
There will never, ever, be a solution to the many problems inherent with providing "free" public education. We are a democracy, we all get to stir the pot and add our own ingredients to the brew. Then, we expect by some miracle, it will actually taste good. It will not, no matter what we do.
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I would hardly call it free. I have to bend over for the education portion of my property taxes - which is fine - I want the neighborhood kids to know how to read.
 
Re: Stupid public school mistake screws child

Gary said:
OK - how do you handle the ones that truly have learning disabilities, what about the ones who truly want to learn but have problems at home.

Is it in our best long term good to tell a 10 year old - shape up or ship out? Do they really understand that concept? Where do they move on to?

You are correct that we are not all equal, not sure that I agree that schools set up their plans with this as one of the guiding concepts.

Gary
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If only I could post a video of Judge Smails from work....
 
ScottM said:
In general the Chinese value education and those that are elite. We tend to demonize the elite. We almost celebrate the average and mediocre.

But that is just a quickie answer and there is of course a more nuanced and complicated answer. Our system tends to not want to leave anyone behind and is trying to elevate all to college. Someone earlier in this thread talked about how we deal with kids that cannot perform or are disruptive. The school is constrained by the parents and other tax payers to deliver 100% successful students 100% of the time.
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+1000
 
I seriously doubt that the members of just this thread could reach a consensus on just how our children should be educated.

There are literally millions of Americans who want their input on just how it should be done, constantly squabbling about the matter. Meanwhile our children can barely understand the complexities of operating a toilet paper holder, or screwing the lid back on the peanut butter jar.

In our very noble efforts to leave no child behind, we are leaving them all behind, every one of them, in one way or another.

Spelling bee? If we stay the course we are presently on, spelling bees will soon be outlawed because they might hurt the self esteem of the children who were not selected. Each child will be taught through months of drilling to spell the word "cat" or perhaps "dog". Once having successfully completed this mind numbing task, they will be given a gold star and their high school diplomas. The school administration will be awarded huge bonuses for their brilliant administering. The teachers will be awarded "Atta Boys" (or Girls)

John
 
John Baker said:
I seriously doubt that the members of just this thread could reach a consensus on just how our children should be educated.

There are literally millions of Americans who want their input on just how it should be done, constantly squabbling about the matter. Meanwhile our children can barely understand the complexities of operating a toilet paper holder, or screwing the lid back on the peanut butter jar.

In our very noble efforts to leave no child behind, we are leaving them all behind, every one of them, in one way or another.

Spelling bee? If we stay the course we are presently on, spelling bees will soon be outlawed because they might hurt the self esteem of the children who were not selected. Each child will be taught through months of drilling to spell the word "cat" or perhaps "dog". Once having successfully completed this mind numbing task, they will be given a gold star and their high school diplomas. The school administration will be awarded huge bonuses for their brilliant administering. The teachers will be awarded "Atta Boys" (or Girls)

John

GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
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Fixed that for ya :cornut::cornut:
 
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