Stupid pilot trick number 2

cgrab

cgrab

Pattern Altitude
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
2,162
Location
Huntsville AL
Display Name
Display name:
cgrab
I fly once a week to keep the engine happy and my skills up even though I really have no place to go. Last week I did all the preflight and took off to do my planned series of turns in the practice area. I returned and put the plane back in the hangar.

This week I got to the hangar and there was a blue stain on the front wheel fairing and a drip from the fuel selector check valve. It appears in my previous preflight it did not snap closed. I cleaned up what I could and calculate that I lost ten gallons over the flight and week of sitting. I cancelled my flight and will go for fuel in the morning.

Now my plane has a big blue "V" on the belly and three streaks on the fairing.

I will be very careful to check all 3 valves after my preflight from now on. I encourage everyone to do the same.
 
If it makes you feel any better...

When I took my wife for our anniversary trip, I did my preflight while she watched from in front of the right wing. As I sumped the left tank she says... why is this one still dripping? I said, "it's just the vent". Thankfully she continued to watch and and alerted me when it didn't stop. Walked back over to find that the drain valve had stuck open just a bit, and I would've never noticed from the back side as we were climbing in.
 
Had that happen on a long night XC. Refueled and one of the tank sump valves kept dripping. Landed when I saw one tank was draining too quickly. A flashlight under the plane figured out the problem and I like to think it has made my preflights much more careful.
 
I would always get rusty water from one sump... Replace the drains, they are cheap.
IMG_2230.JPG
 
Last edited:
What was stupid pilot trick number 1?
 
#1 was leaving the fuel selector in "R" until the engine stopped. I was returning from the beach with my wife and happened to be over a familiar airport. I made a dead stick landing and found my mistake on the ground. Yes, I should have done the checklist but when it stopped, I made the decision to land and did it.
 
So your engine died from fuel starvation and rather than switch tanks, you did a dead stick landing with your wife in the plane?

I realize that may be a stupid conclusion on my part, but I admit to being a little confused.
 
Yes, when the engine died, I saw the airport and began a slip to land. I made the calls and the landing with no issues. I decided that diagnosis is easier on the ground. Once I decided on a path, I made it happen. Yes it was a stupid pilot trick.
 
Cherokees are notorious for leaking fuel sumps. It got to the point where I stopped sumping entirely, and I can tell you I'm not the only Cherokee pilot to do so. One time the engine sump dumped a whole tankload of gas into the hangar. Had either my buddy or me been smokers we'd have had a blast.
 
steingar said:
Cherokees are notorious for leaking fuel sumps. It got to the point where I stopped sumping entirely, and I can tell you I'm not the only Cherokee pilot to do so. One time the engine sump dumped a whole tankload of gas into the hangar. Had either my buddy or me been smokers we'd have had a blast.
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t support that. I’d like to know if there’s water in the tank from the pump or leaking filler seal after rains. Also, I look at the color and smell to check misfueling. When on the ground, not a big deal to take a second look at the drain before you finish the preflight.
 
MajorTurbulence said:
I wouldn’t support that. I’d like to know if there’s water in the tank from the pump or leaking filler seal after rains. Also, I look at the color and smell to check misfueling. When on the ground, not a big deal to take a second look at the drain before you finish the preflight.
Click to expand...

I'm with @MajorTurbulence on this. I always sump the tank. I'd rather know about water in the fuel on the ground rather than on departure. If you have a leaky sump valve, replace it. They are cheaper than the $100 hamburger that you are going out for. If you start short cutting your preflight inspection because of problem with an inexpensive and easy to replace part, what else will you start skipping?
 
steingar said:
Cherokees are notorious for leaking fuel sumps. It got to the point where I stopped sumping entirely, and I can tell you I'm not the only Cherokee pilot to do so. One time the engine sump dumped a whole tankload of gas into the hangar. Had either my buddy or me been smokers we'd have had a blast.
Click to expand...

There's only a few companies that make these parts. Nothing unique about them if they get installed on a Piper Cherokee versus some other make & model. If yours tend to leak you've either got particulates coming out of your tank or the o-ring seals are hardened with age.
 
Say whatever you want, try talking to a few Cherokee owners before you do though. You might learn something.
 
steingar said:
Cherokees are notorious for leaking fuel sumps. It got to the point where I stopped sumping entirely, and I can tell you I'm not the only Cherokee pilot to do so. One time the engine sump dumped a whole tankload of gas into the hangar. Had either my buddy or me been smokers we'd have had a blast.
Click to expand...

GRG55 said:
There's only a few companies that make these parts. Nothing unique about them if they get installed on a Piper Cherokee versus some other make & model. If yours tend to leak you've either got particulates coming out of your tank or the o-ring seals are hardened with age.
Click to expand...

steingar said:
Say whatever you want, try talking to a few Cherokee owners before you do though. You might learn something.
Click to expand...

Well, as a Cherokee owner, I can add the following...

1. Yes, the sump valves can leak if particles get lodged in them or the seals get worn. I had one that you had to make sure it closed fully by letting it snap back into place rather than let it close gently. Note the use of the past tense, "had".....

2. These aren't special "Cherokee" sump valves...like all mechanical equipment, they wear out...and you replace them.

3. NOT sumping as part of a preflight because you're worried about the valve not sealing is ....ummm...unintelligent. I know quite a few Cherokee owners. Our solution, strangely enough, is to replace a leaky, dripping, or difficult-to-seat valve, rather than habitually risk missing a fuel contamination situation. As someone who discovered a fuel cap that wasn't sealing through sumping almost a cup of water out of my right tank during a preflight.....I will NEVER skip sumping for any reason, and never have.
 
Last edited:
MuseChaser said:
3. NOT sumping as part of a preflight because you're worried about the valve not sealing is ....ummm...unintelligent. I know quite a few Cherokee owners. Our solution, strangely enough, is to replace a leaky, dripping, or difficult-to-seat valve, rather than habitually risk missing a fuel contamination situation. As someone who discovered a fuel cap that wasn't sealing through sumping almost a cup of water out of my right tank during a preflight.....I will NEVER skip sumping for any reason, and never have.
Click to expand...
I kept replacing those damn things to no avail. Like I said, I was far from alone...
 
cgrab said:
#1 was leaving the fuel selector in "R" until the engine stopped. I was returning from the beach with my wife and happened to be over a familiar airport. I made a dead stick landing and found my mistake on the ground. Yes, I should have done the checklist but when it stopped, I made the decision to land and did it.
Click to expand...

I did exactly that. I don’t remember what stupid pilot trick # that was, but definitely in one of my 1st five.
When the engine quits right over the airport, and you don’t know why. It seems much more prudent to put all your effort into safety putting it on the ground and figure out what is wrong on the ground.

I knew I could safety land it power off. I didn’t know if I could get the engine restarted.

Brian
 
Interestingly, the 1968 Cardinal owners' manual does not say that the sumps should be checked during walk around. It says that if there is water when you pull out the strainer drain knob then check the sumps.
 
cgrab said:
Interestingly, the 1968 Cardinal owners' manual does not say that the sumps should be checked during walk around. It says that if there is water when you pull out the strainer drain knob then check the sumps.
Click to expand...
In 1968 Cessna wasn't being sued every day. Some airplanes even came without sump drain valves; the ports had plugs in them. If you find water in the strainer, that normally means that there's enough water to fill the sump enough that it starts reaching the outlet to the engine, and that much water, during certain maneuvers, could get out and completely fill the strainer and kill the engine.

In the flight school I replaced those drain valves yearly. Some of them are easily refurbished with MS29513-006 and MS29513-012 O-rings. If you leave them for enough years, corrosion will seize them in there and you could tear the entire port boss out of the tank trying to get the valve out. Cheap maintenance isn't cheap.
 
steingar said:
I kept replacing those damn things to no avail. Like I said, I was far from alone...
Click to expand...

If they keep failing, most likely you have a problem further upstream. Dried out sealant flaking off and plugging the drain, corroded hose lining or fitting, who knows. Do you see any particulate when (if .... hehehehe) you sump?
 
MuseChaser said:
Well, as a Cherokee owner, I can add the following...

1. Yes, the sump valves can leak if particles get lodged in them or the seals get worn. I had one that you had to make sure it closed fully by letting it snap back into place rather than let it close gently. Note the use of the past tense, "had".....

2. These aren't special "Cherokee" sump valves...like all mechanical equipment, they wear out...and you replace them.

3. NOT sumping as part of a preflight because you're worried about the valve not sealing is ....ummm...unintelligent. I know quite a few Cherokee owners. Our solution, strangely enough, is to replace a leaky, dripping, or difficult-to-seat valve, rather than habitually risk missing a fuel contamination situation. As someone who discovered a fuel cap that wasn't sealing through sumping almost a cup of water out of my right tank during a preflight.....I will NEVER skip sumping for any reason, and never have.
Click to expand...
I have to strongly echo everything said here. And to further disavow this notion that Cherokee owners collectively support no sumping, unless my Archer has been expelled from the tribe, please imagine my hand raised high in opposition to this notion. My earlier comment stands.
 
No way I'm flying a plane that I can't sump the tanks in. That's crazy. Odds are it'll be fine, but it's no different than flying without having any idea how much gas you have.
 
Didn't bother me in the slightest. In 20 years I've found water in the fuel all of once after the aircraft was outside in a hard rain. Advantage of being in a hangar I guess. I do like the fact that I've been able to return to sumping the tanks in my Mooney.
 
steingar said:
Didn't bother me in the slightest. In 20 years I've found water in the fuel all of once after the aircraft was outside in a hard rain. Advantage of being in a hangar I guess. I do like the fact that I've been able to return to sumping the tanks in my Mooney.
Click to expand...
If you hadn't found that water, you might not have lived those last 20 years.
 
I used to fly a twin turb. The sump drains were flush mounted. If you stuck the thingy too far up the valve, an internal flapper valve went over center and stuck open. Fuel came out at high rate. After a 75 gal fuel spill, it was determined that "@#*@ piluts" could not be trusted any further for this operation and maint people did it.
Any body got a capacitance fuel gauge? They have their own set of troubles. Engines still seem to run (somewhat) with water in the fuel, but the fuel level readout shows more than you really have in the tank.
A couple of our guys went to Kuwait on contract to support the contractors putting out the oil well fires that Sadam started. One day their fuel guage was kind of low, but still showed a reserve. The twin PWs conked about together and they landed OK. They were quickly spotted but nobody came to them. Guess it was cause they dead sticked into Sadam's mine field. A lot of water was drained and a little fuel.
 
Arnold said:
A friend tells me that his newish C-172 has 13 sump points.
Click to expand...
They do. Five in each wing, one at the strainer, one at the selector valve, and one at the low point in the system. The five in each tank is because the tank is no longer a separate, smooth-bottomed tank mounted inside the wing; it's the wing itself, with the tank cavity having all its seams sealed, but the stiffeners across the bottom act like dams that can trap water that accumulates to dangerous levels, so a drain is required at the low point of each "dam."
 
Drains that keep getting contaminated with junk indicate a need to flush the tanks. The valves need to come out and the fuel drained into buckets until no more junk comes out. Rocking the airplane some helps to move this stuff toward the sump. We used to find a lot of bugs and bits of bugs in the tanks when there was a lot of night flying going on; the bugs are attracted by the fuelling light and the gasoline fumes and get into the tank. Don't ever leave the cap off thinking you're going to fill the other side and come back to top off the first tank and dip it. That's just asking for bugs, and it's also risking taking off with the cap off.
 
cgrab said:
#1 was leaving the fuel selector in "R" until the engine stopped. I was returning from the beach with my wife and happened to be over a familiar airport. I made a dead stick landing and found my mistake on the ground. Yes, I should have done the checklist but when it stopped, I made the decision to land and did it.
Click to expand...
I got my first ever pink slip when I did my CFI reinstatement ride last year after I"lost the engine" abeam the numbers. I did what I would really do in this situation and went straight for the numbers.

Was busted for not running the flow and checklist. I wrote it off to miscommunication of what he was looking for.

I got it "right" the next time, but if I'm 1000 AGL and within reach of an actual runway when the fan gets quiet I would focus on the landing, exactly as you did.
 
MajorTurbulence said:
I wouldn’t support that. I’d like to know if there’s water in the tank from the pump or leaking filler seal after rains. Also, I look at the color and smell to check misfueling. When on the ground, not a big deal to take a second look at the drain before you finish the preflight.
Click to expand...

JRflyboy said:
I'm with @MajorTurbulence on this. I always sump the tank. I'd rather know about water in the fuel on the ground rather than on departure. If you have a leaky sump valve, replace it. They are cheaper than the $100 hamburger that you are going out for. If you start short cutting your preflight inspection because of problem with an inexpensive and easy to replace part, what else will you start skipping?
Click to expand...

A certain flight school in north central ND has taken to removing the fuel testers from their airplanes during the winter months. Their lame excuse? "If there is ice in the tank it can damage the O-Ring and cause fuel to leak." :rolleyes:
 
smv said:
A certain flight school in north central ND has taken to removing the fuel testers from their airplanes during the winter months. Their lame excuse? "If there is ice in the tank it can damage the O-Ring and cause fuel to leak." :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

My very first job in Alaska.

I went to pre-flight the mighty sled (207) we were to train in. I sumped the left tank, and when I removed the fuel tester from said sump, a steady stream of fuel started pouring out the sump.

Lesson learned: Don't sump the tanks in winter because any ice in the sump will tear the O-ring or stick the sump wide open. Both conditions will cause a lot of fuel to drain from the tank and then a mechanic has to come out and replace the sump drain. Back then Av gas in Alaska was durn near 5 bucks a gallon....
 
Zeldman said:
My very first job in Alaska.

I went to pre-flight the mighty sled (207) we were to train in. I sumped the left tank, and when I removed the fuel tester from said sump, a steady stream of fuel started pouring out the sump.

Lesson learned: Don't sump the tanks in winter because any ice in the sump will tear the O-ring or stick the sump wide open. Both conditions will cause a lot of fuel to drain from the tank and then a mechanic has to come out and replace the sump drain. Back then Av gas in Alaska was durn near 5 bucks a gallon....
Click to expand...

Yah... Much better to leave the ice in there where it can clog a fuel port or perhaps melt in flight. :rolleyes:
 
smv said:
Much better to leave the ice in there where it can clog a fuel port or perhaps melt in flight.
Click to expand...


Never spent a winter in Alaska I take it....

And there are other ways to remove ice from fuel tanks in winter.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top