Yes, but I’ve never seen a sign on the back of a car that says “Learner Driver.” It’s always “Student Driver.”
(Gotta get one of those stickers for my plane....)
Students are "Learners" now...........
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Yes, but I’ve never seen a sign on the back of a car that says “Learner Driver.” It’s always “Student Driver.”
(Gotta get one of those stickers for my plane....)
dtuuri
Final Approach
I bet some didn't sleep very well after seeing their fuel temps decreasing over the north pole.
LoLPilot
Line Up and Wait
I'm actually curious about this myself. I have adapted to the change but I have zero clue what prompted it, nor understand how it is better. I assume I'm not part of the aggrieved class this aims to relieve.
Most likely because "student" and "instructor" carry connotations of power differentials, i.e. the instructor has authority over the student. As far as the question of "what is w*ke?" it generally refers to a branch of sociology that views all social interaction as clashes between groups with different levels of relative "power" in society. The aim of that particular branch of sociology is to undue existing social systems and remake them as a supposedly "egalitarian" society. Someone else here said that the "student to learner" change smells fishy, and I agree that it smells fishy. My guess is that the "student to learner" thing follows along this ideology (critical social theory).
@schmookeeg keep using "student."
RyanShort1
Final Approach
For the record, I don't like the term "woke" and I'm NOT addressing this from an "anti-woke" perspective, but from a perspective of what the terms have historically meant and what they imply, and how the changes impact the previous body of work that we draw upon for flight training.
RussR
En-Route
I don't care if people call it a FR or a BFR, it's the same thing and I'm glad they're coming to me to get it done (well, I'm glad when "most" of them come to me...)
However, it does amuse me when I see articles (they're all over the place) saying "it's no longer called a BFR". Because, as far as I can determine, it has NEVER been officially called a BFR in the regulations. I went back to 1974 when it was implemented, and it was called a "Flight Review" in 61.57 back then, and could find no reference in subsequent years in either 61.57 or 61.56 (when it was moved to there) calling it a Biennial Flight Review. I've been flying for over 30 years, and called it a BFR myself. So was it just a colloqialism? Like "lower case b" FR? A biennial Flight Review (which is fairly accurate), a bFR?
Sort of. But an official colloquialism, too. And the B was capitalized.
AC 61-98 from 1987 was apparently named "Scope and Content of Biennial Flight Reviews". I have been unable to find this AC, but AC 61-98A refers to it on page 1 (and canceled it).
AC 61-98A also refers to (and cancels) AC 60-12, from 1976 (so, shortly after the FR was implemented), which has BFR all over it!
But AC 61-98A, dated 1991, cancels these two documents that reference the BFR and instead uses the current wording of "flight review".
I'd be curious about other more recent FAA publications that use the term BFR, if anybody has access to them. But from what I can determine from the pertinent CFRs and ACs:
- BFR was never a term in the regulations
- Since 1991 it has not been used in the applicable ACs
That's 33 years ago, yet most of the articles you read that mention a "change" imply it was recently.
Anybody have examples of more recent FAA publications with the term "BFR"?
Brad Z
Final Approach
Just to stir the pot I'm going to petition the FAA to add preferred pronouns to our people who operate aircraft certificates.
Katamarino
Pattern Altitude
You could have just said "no", it would have been a lot quicker.
You should look up Godwin's second law, I bet it fits you perfectly.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
But it wouldn’t be as effective in coloring his point.
Katamarino
Pattern Altitude
What was his point, then? That he is ardently against something he is incapable of articulating?
RyanShort1
Final Approach
His point appeared to be that your post that he quoted is a bit of a red herring, which I consider it to be.
Like the term or not (I don't) we both know what that person was trying to say.
Katamarino
Pattern Altitude
He states that the FAA has gone "woke" - and he made literally no other point. He clearly thought it was important to post it, or he wouldn't have said anything.
So how exactly is it a "red herring" to ask him to clarify his meaning?
Katamarino
Pattern Altitude
That was exactly my point. If he doesn't have the courage to say what he means, and instead needs to hide behind childish hyperbole, then he should be called on it.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
'cause in the context of the thread it would be better to just ignore that particular bit of uselessness and stick to the "learner" discussion. That's what Red Herrings do - they lead off the trail. You took troll bait.
Katamarino
Pattern Altitude
I see your point, and thanks for clarifying. I disagree though - I think that there's no place for bigots like him on this board and I intend to call them out on it when I see them. He has 16k posts, so he's hardly a throwaway troll account.
dtuuri
Final Approach
The "GUIDELINES For The Conduct of BIENNIAL FLIGHT REVIEWS" was a product of an ad hoc industry group in 1975. You name it, they were represented, including THE Ohio State University and the FAA. It's concerning to me how we have met the enemy, and he is us since then. A direct quote:
"It is not intended to be a critique of the pilot's ability to execute specific maneuvers such as those found in flight training or in testing for certificate or rating qualifications."
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Bro do you even lift
one can be a student and not learn, yes? can one be a learner and not learn? doesn't make sense. by dictionary definitions, a student is "a person who takes an interest in a particular subject" while a learner is "a person who is learning a subject or skill". there have been plenty of STUDENT pilots who didn't LEARN jack squat. so on top of it being mostly idiotic and a complete waste of time and money, it also sounds flat out incorrect.
morleyz
Pre-takeoff checklist
Just for some historical context, Darth Vader uses the term "learner" to describe himself in Episode IV, released in 1977. Keep in mind that Vader was also from a long time ago, so the term has been around for quite a while.
Personally, who cares. If you're not capable of learning a few new terms or adjusting to current vernacular then I question your ability to adjust to constant changes in regulations, technology or anything else associated with being a pilot. I'm guessing there are approaching zero certificated pilots that are also English scholars. It's not woke or sensitivity or cancel culture or anything else, it's just the evolution of language, which has been going on as long as language has existed.
Personally, who cares. If you're not capable of learning a few new terms or adjusting to current vernacular then I question your ability to adjust to constant changes in regulations, technology or anything else associated with being a pilot. I'm guessing there are approaching zero certificated pilots that are also English scholars. It's not woke or sensitivity or cancel culture or anything else, it's just the evolution of language, which has been going on as long as language has existed.
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GaryM
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Gary M
I identify as a student. You must accept my reality, or be cancelled.
Katamarino
Pattern Altitude
This is the first solid argument against the change that I have seen. "Learner" leads to the dark side.
morleyz
Pre-takeoff checklist
I mean, he also says that he is now the master. Maybe we should change that too. You can be an Airline Transport Learner and after passing your checkride, Airline Transport Master.This is the first solid argument against the change that I have seen. "Learner" leads to the dark side.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Let me give it a go: "Woke" is the expression used to describe the sudden desire to recruit and indoctrinate, by force of law or regulation, those inherently opposed to one's political beliefs rather than engage in time honored methods of persuasion.
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NoBShere
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NoBShere
Thanks for bringing me up to speed. So who was the moron that decided it no longer meant "not sleeping"? That person needs to be banished. Probably the same person that decided we should park in driveways and drive on parkways.
LoLPilot
Line Up and Wait
Popular press points to social activists in 1940's-1960's (https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/woke/) but the term likely refers to the critical social theory idea of awakening the critical consciousness (e.g. learning to see all social systems through power imbalances and becoming motivated to work against structures perceived to be in power) - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5892452/
Liberation and Decolonization (Critical Thinking and Consciousness; Decolonization Stages)
This chapter discusses the complex process of decolonization, particularly in the context of education, mental health, and cultural identity. It emphasizes that while there are multiple approaches to decolonization, there is no one specific approach to achieving a...
link.springer.com
So a lot of it comes from social activist scholarship, which is a great deal of what is behind the identity politics driving the culture wars in the west today. Ironically enough, the discord its sewing is kind of the idea behind it.
You have now and they're available on line if you want one, having been the way UK student drivers are forced to broadcast their position in the driver hierarchy since the beginning of time. The British are experts at establishing hierarchy in every area of life, L-plates being a part of that. Its their nature and the reason some of them are so over-sensitive to it
I'd personally much rather be termed a student than a learner. Student implies that you have an earnest interest in the subject and are open to learning from others. Learner seems to me a term that implies a dull mind, lack of enthusiasm, and a certain arrogance.
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GaryM
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Gary M
That's pretty good, though I'd include 'peer pressure' with force of law or regulation. Peer pressure is a huge driver for many young people on social media, but folks of all ages can fall into the trap of group think.
schmookeeg
En-Route
I think you helped me figure out my mental turmoil over this.
I'm all in favor of language changing, colloquially, on its own. I don't say "rad" anymore unless ironically. Times have moved on and away from certain words, and language evolved. Rad!
The recent changes do not seem to have happened organically on their own or in their own time. There's a feeling of a "push" here, and that makes me uncomfortable, because it is being done without a widespread consensus, and it's being framed as just without letting people get there on their own. When you force people to do something, a lot of them (self included) will do the opposite out of spite because they don't like being manipulated. Which sort of spoils the result. A lot of those people would have probably gone along with it on its own momentum and not cared one whit, but someone, somewhere, is impatient for these changes.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
You'd have to wait for us to "learn" that the definitions had rightfully changed. I didn't learn that by studying... The FAA is being a poor teacher.I think you helped me figure out my mental turmoil over this.
I'm all in favor of language changing, colloquially, on its own. I don't say "rad" anymore unless ironically. Times have moved on and away from certain words, and language evolved. Rad!
The recent changes do not seem to have happened organically on their own or in their own time. There's a feeling of a "push" here, and that makes me uncomfortable, because it is being done without a widespread consensus, and it's being framed as just without letting people get there on their own. When you force people to do something, a lot of them (self included) will do the opposite out of spite because they don't like being manipulated. Which sort of spoils the result. A lot of those people would have probably gone along with it on its own momentum and not cared one whit, but someone, somewhere, is impatient for these changes.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Ok, done.
masloki
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Nunya
I bit. You mean the nautical term of a hold in a man o’ war ship where the wounded were taken or the hole in the ground where you keep your cocks? Now that I know the two irrelevant origins, I’m onboard with flight deck.
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Katamarino
Pattern Altitude
Interestingly, lawyers for Desantis (not the most liberal guy around) were pressed for a definition, and gave a very different one.
"The belief there are systemic injustices in American society and the need to address them."
Maybe they should have asked you first?
morleyz
Pre-takeoff checklist
I kind of miss rad, but yes, it is dead. I'm expecting it to come back though. I see the baggy sweatshirts and shredded jeans are cool again.I think you helped me figure out my mental turmoil over this.
I'm all in favor of language changing, colloquially, on its own. I don't say "rad" anymore unless ironically. Times have moved on and away from certain words, and language evolved. Rad!
The recent changes do not seem to have happened organically on their own or in their own time. There's a feeling of a "push" here, and that makes me uncomfortable, because it is being done without a widespread consensus, and it's being framed as just without letting people get there on their own. When you force people to do something, a lot of them (self included) will do the opposite out of spite because they don't like being manipulated. Which sort of spoils the result. A lot of those people would have probably gone along with it on its own momentum and not cared one whit, but someone, somewhere, is impatient for these changes.
When I feel the "push" as you say, I try to reflect on what it is that actually makes me uncomfortable. I do find in most instances it's just my natural resistance to change and I think most people have that to a certain level. The FAA isn't really forcing you to use learner, but they did have a group of people discuss and determine it's a better term. The Merriam-Webster definitions of learner and one definition of student are almost identical. Many words that are pushed are things that truly are racist, sexist, etc. We have to adapt our language as we learn and frankly (lol) become woke, which to me is simply awareness that there are people in the world that are different and some of them have 100% been systematically abused, subjugated, and discriminated against. The words we use really do tie into that. The cockpit argument is representative. Women are the ones who have cited the term as being sexist and used to demean their role in aviation. This is a long article, but you can get the gist of it from the exec summary. I find it interesting from a point of view that I cannot understand, being a woman. https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/trecms/pdf/AD1168801.pdf. My point is that while women are nowhere near the majority of military or civilian pilots, a simple change in terminology that makes them feel more accepted in a field that they are equally qualified in seems like a really easy win. Maybe I'm just soft in my old age.
"Right on" has come and gone at least twice
RyanShort1
Final Approach
Only because they've degraded the nuance and changed the definitions. I don't hear ANYONE around me using the term learner as synonymous for student except in very specific situations as I've given before in the thread like "he's a slow learner."
I have several dictionaries on my shelves because I like to be able to look things up. There are several words that have been given the treatment these days, and most of them are along ideological and politically correct lines. Like it or not, it does happen, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea, or one that we should immediately accept without discussion.
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GeorgeC
Oh, I get it now- the L means learner!You have now and they're available on line if you want one, having been the way UK student drivers are forced to broadcast their position in the driver hierarchy for since the beginning of time. The British are experts at establishing hierarchy in every area of life, L-plates being a part of that. Its their nature and the reason some of them are so over-sensitive to it
I'd personally much rather be termed a student than a learner. Student implies that you have an earnest interest in the subject and are open to learning from others. Learner seems to me a term that implies a dull mind, lack of enthusiasm, and a certain arrogance.
RussR
En-Route
My 16-year old daughter actually said something was "rad" the other day. I'm fairly certain she said that to tease me, BUT I was also surprised she even knew the word. It's not like I go around the house saying it.
Yeah, but to be fair they were in court at the time and subject to prosecution if they lied. So they had no choice but to give an honest answer.
dtuuri
Final Approach
That doesn't look honest to me, it looks like putting lipstick on a pig.
ateamer
Pattern Altitude
More to the location where the cockswain (the head of a small boat) was stationed.
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