Student Pilot XC Issues - Help!

[mjburian]

Yesterday I had my second dual cross country flight. My first was on December 8, 2007... and actually, yesterday was only my 3rd lesson since Thanksgiving (due to weather). During the first dual xc, I felt fairly confident that I could accomplish the necessary tasks when I was flying the route solo. Yesterday, however, was the complete opposite -- I felt like there was *way* more going on than I could keep track of both in the air and on the ground.

First, the route of flight got changed at the last minute. The METARS and TAFs all looked good (for once), but when we called Flight Service they advised against VFR flight along our planned route. This, combined with the fact that I've never called Flight Service for a briefing (I have used DUATS to the point where I'm comfortable with it, but my instructor wanted me to give "calling in" a try) caused me quite a bit of stress. While on the phone, the briefer was giving me information *way* faster than I could write it down... and I wasn't sure which of the things he was saying were important and which weren't. Any advice on getting better at taking a pre-flight briefing over the phone?

Because of the weather, the flight was changed from 3 legs (about 200 miles total) to an "out and back" of about 100 miles total. However, to get the most benefit possible we added more checkpoints and purposely went out of our way a bit to bring a second VOR into the navigation. It really felt like every minute or two there was something to mark down on the navigation log (time to checkpoint, ahead or behind and how much, fuel burn for the leg, fuel remaining, actual ground speed, etc). I felt like if I gave that stuff the attention it needed, I wouldn't be paying enough attention to the actual "flying"... and since I was taught to "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" I didn't give the navigation and communication the attention it needed.

Also, our destination happened to be a Class C airport... an airspace type in which I've never flown. As a matter of fact, I've only done 2 total landings at an airport with a control tower (both Class D). The original plan had us going to a Class D airport first (to get me comfortable on the radio again) and then into the Class C (just to get some experience with it). Due to the weather, we were only able to get into the Class C.

Anyway, I felt overwhelmed and just wanted to know what you guys thought I could do to get over this hump. I had a similar feeling about my abilities before my first solo... so I'm trying not to get down on myself. Instead, I want to push through it by trying to study/practice as much as I can between flights. Just wondering what you guys think might be the best way to approach the study/practice regimen.

By the way, my instructor did say that I shouldn't feel bad about anything. The last minute change caused the route to be shortened, so there was a lot going on in a short time. I have another dual scheduled for next weekend, and he decided to make it a longer out and back. That way there would be more time just flying the plane instead of climb, hurry up and figure out time/speed/distance stuff, descend.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

That's a lot of stuff Marty!

Flight service. The more you call them, the more comfortable it will become -- I recommend not using DUAT until you get comfortable. Don't be afraid to ask the briefer to slow down, to explain something, or to ask for information that they didn't provide (for example, I've never had a briefer offer lifted index data and have had to ask for it every time I wanted it).

Work load. The more you fly the more you'll be able to stay ahead of everything. Just keep at it and it will get easier and easier. Also, talking to Class B and C TRACON isn't a whole lot different than talking to the tower at a Class D airport (except for getting a squawk code). The principles of the initial call up are they same -- tell 'em who you are, where you are, and what you want. Don't be afraid to ask them to repeat something or explain something, either.

Anyway, it all gets easier with practice. After I got my PP-ASEL I was doing some dual with a CFI. We were at Cape May which was (I don't know why I remember this) 54 nm from my home airport. After I did the run up, he said something like "All the charts and papers just blew out of the airplane, the GPS and Nav radios just died, and the only things that work are Comm 1 and the magnetic compass. Get me home!". And so I did. By pilotage. It was a real confidence builder. These days, many years later, my wife likes to sight see, particularly on the return flight from somewhere. I generally oblige her and use highways, rivers, etc. to get where she want to go, and then more pilotage to get back home (it is cheating, after all, to use the GPS ).

 

[tonycondon]

ask the briefer to slow down and ask question to make sure you get the info right. its important that you understand that info before you are airborne.

dual cross countries are typically high workload. especially the relatively short 100 mile out and return. Us CFIs have a great knack and keeping the workload high with navigation questions, time/speed distance problems and generally annoying questions. If the instructor says you did good, then you did. Enjoy your solo XC's, they will be a lot of fun!

 

[mjburian]

That's a lot of stuff Marty!

Flight service. The more you call them, the more comfortable it will become -- I recommend not using DUAT until you get comfortable. Don't be afraid to ask the briefer to slow down, to explain something, or to ask for information that they didn't provide (for example, I've never had a briefer offer lifted index data and have had to ask for it every time I wanted it).

Work load. The more you fly the more you'll be able to stay ahead of everything. Just keep at it and it will get easier and easier. Also, talking to Class B and C TRACON isn't a whole lot different than talking to the tower at a Class D airport (except for getting a squawk code). The principles of the initial call up are they same -- tell 'em who you are, where you are, and what you want. Don't be afraid to ask them to repeat something or explain something, either.

Anyway, it all gets easier with practice. After I got my PP-ASEL I was doing some dual with a CFI. We were at Cape May which was (I don't know why I remember this) 54 nm from my home airport. After I did the run up, he said something like "All the charts and papers just blew out of the airplane, the GPS and Nav radios just died, and the only things that work are Comm 1 and the magnetic compass. Get me home!". And so I did. By pilotage. It was a real confidence builder. These days, many years later, my wife likes to sight see, particularly on the return flight from somewhere. I generally oblige her and use highways, rivers, etc. to get where she want to go, and then more pilotage to get back home (it is cheating, after all, to use the GPS ).

I think the comfort-level I have with DUATS has to do with the fact that I can take in the information at my own pace. My instructor mentioned that calling in to FSS will eventually get easier... especially since they will be able to sift through the NOTAMs and TFRs that are pertinent to my flight. As opposed to DUATS, which seems to give you every NOTAM and TFR within about 5 states of your proposed route. Don't get me wrong... I appreciate the information. It just takes me a bit longer to sift through all of that stuff than it does one of the FSS briefers. I think asking the briefer to slow down is the key to solving my first issue.

Also... the Class C is a little different (for a beginner), since once you make contact at a Class D you're done screwing with the radios until you land. In the Class C, I was handed off from Approach to Tower in the middle of flying my pattern. "Staying a frequency ahead" as my instructor puts it, just wasn't something I was able to do while aviating and navigating.

Now, all I have to do is get 2 sets of eyes and 4 hands and I should be able the handle the enroute stuff.

 

[KennyFlys]

The trick is in the planning. I'm sure you were ready for it but became a little anxious with last minute changes. You wrote the flight plan and had gone over you log with estimates several times such you were quite comfortable. Then a wrench is thrown in and you're a little unsure.

So, make the adjustments and review it a few times. Chair-fly the route on your chart so you know a little more what you're looking for on the actual flight. Prominent checkpoints are important.

If you're not comfortable with the changes or weather pushes you direction less appealing or simply not safe, there's always the option of canceling the trip. That's a real-life decision that will apply long after you get your ticket.

When you call flight service, say up front you're a student pilot. Even place it on the remarks section on your flight plan. Briefers will slow down with you as a student. If they don't ask them to. They get paid to make sure you get the information necessary to your flight, not by the number of words spoken. The older briefers who have been around a while are more relaxed will take the time with you.

Class C may seem more intimidating but don't let it. All you're looking at beyond Class D is larger dimensions, required transponder and a slightly higher traffic volume. Enter the patten as instructed and the rest of it's the same. Be sure to have an airport diagram for any airport you land at as well as for a few alternates along your route.

I don't know where you are so I have no idea what navaids are around you. You're first means of navigation is visual reference but a constant tracking of VOR will help you maintain situational awareness. Keep the second VOR tuned and the OBS constantly adjusted so you can triangulate your position every few minutes.

With regard to GPS, you can certainly load your flight plan but then I'd prefer the student to turn down the display and use the most basic functions for navigation. You're a VFR pilot and those skills will be important long after you even obtain an instrument rating. Learn the needles and how to use those. Worry about the magenta line another day.

I hope what I've provided helps.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Also... the Class C is a little different (for a beginner), since once you make contact at a Class D you're done screwing with the radios until you land. In the Class C, I was handed off from Approach to Tower in the middle of flying my pattern. "Staying a frequency ahead" as my instructor puts it, just wasn't something I was able to do while aviating and navigating.

On frequencies. I prepare a cheat sheet which lists frequencies I'll probably need (trying to fly a helicopter while looking up stuff on a chart is a real pain). As soon as I switch to a new frequency, I immediately put in the next frequency I'm likely to need. If I'm talking to approach, I'll put in what they're likely to switch me to next, or the tower, as appropriate. Talking to the tower, put in ground. That's what your CFI is talking about, I think.

I think you'll find that your comment about Class D isn't quite right. If they're busy, you can end up talking to the tower quite a bit if they need to separate you from other traffic. Also, if you are transitioning Class D (rather then landing there) they may have instructions for you. And if you are landing, they'll probably give you a reporting point and may issue new instructions when you report. So you can end up having just as much or more contact with ATC than you would in Class B or C.

 

[GMascelli]

Marty

I have attached a sheet I still use every flight. I can note the duats info then call FSS and note the briefing also (it helps to see that the briefing matches up to what I read) I also have a few lines to fill in on the top that provides the briefer with all the info they need. The info the give you matches the order of the document, it helps with the flow. As others have stated, ask them to slow down or repeat, it's your flight and your in charge. Hope it helps.

Try printing out the kneeboard size sheets from the AOPA airport directory, they provide a host of info and they will fit under your flight plan on the kneeboard. Here is the link.

 

[poadeleted20]

What they said -- ask (and tell if ask doesn't work) the briefer to slow down. Make clear that you're a student pilot who is still learning the ropes. 98% of briefers will bend over backwards to accommodate training once they know you're a student, and for the other 2%, there's the FSS complaint hotline (888/358-7782 (888-FLT-SRVC)).

As for the checkpoints, if you are spending that much time on your flight logs, you simply have too many checkpoints. I understand your instructor's interest in getting you more experience on this, but you just can't put 200 miles of training in a 100 mile flight, and trying to do so is counterproductive -- but you seemed to figure that out by yourself even if your instructor did not.

 

[markb5900]

As part of project mentor I have done many "3 way" briefings with my mentee's.
Just tell the briefer you are a student, they WILL slow down and help you or they SHOULD I should say.
When I have done the "3 way" telephone calls, I just told the briefer that I had a student on the line, they were MORE than happy to help and give suggestions and really EXPLAIN things.

 

[KennyFlys]

Gary, that's a handy little item. Thanks for posting it.

Marty, I had missed something about numerous check points. At one time early in my training, I recall having not enough then too many. I've found checkpoints at twenty miles with a range between about 17-22 miles apart works pretty good. You don't want them so far apart you get extra time to lose track but not so close you don't have time to make time/distance/fuel calculations between points; not to mention lose track of your primary purpose up there... to fly the airplane.

If you're buying a pad of flight logs, don't do that. There are so many generic versions available on-line, you can print your own. I'll post what I used during my commercial training and checkride. Eventually, I want to design something that can incorporate a bit more collection of data into a folded legal sheet that would be of added benefit like what Gary has provided.

In your mention of frequency changes, know as much as you can ahead of time during flight planning. The Airport/Facilities Directory is your friend in this regard. When you pick airports as a checkpoint, look it up in the A/FD and get the appropriate frequency for Center or the TRACON in that area. For an intended stop or pass-through, it will tell you what frequency to expect for a given direction (if not all directions) into their airspace. Write those down in an easy format so you know what to expect. After one hand-off, you can set the standby frequency for the next expected hand-off. Sometimes, they may give you something other than expected but more often than not, you'll be set to change as instructed.

Gary had also given the link to AOPA's airport directory page. One of the most useful items you can grab from that are the printable knee-board in PDF formats for every airport. They aren't as comprehensive as the A/FD but you can add data to them from the A/FD.

If you're not a member of AOPA, at least take advantage of the free six-month subscription. There is a wealth of information to help supplement your training and assist in explaining things that may be a rough area for you. After that, it's a worthy $39/yr for the benefit of the resources.

Best Wishes with continued training and Fly Safe!

 

[mjburian]

On frequencies. I prepare a cheat sheet which lists frequencies I'll probably need (trying to fly a helicopter while looking up stuff on a chart is a real pain). As soon as I switch to a new frequency, I immediately put in the next frequency I'm likely to need. If I'm talking to approach, I'll put in what they're likely to switch me to next, or the tower, as appropriate. Talking to the tower, put in ground. That's what your CFI is talking about, I think.

I think you'll find that your comment about Class D isn't quite right. If they're busy, you can end up talking to the tower quite a bit if they need to separate you from other traffic. Also, if you are transitioning Class D (rather then landing there) they may have instructions for you. And if you are landing, they'll probably give you a reporting point and may issue new instructions when you report. So you can end up having just as much or more contact with ATC than you would in Class B or C.

I'm sorry if I was unclear. What I meant about the radios is that once you're on the tower frequency (and ground on your standby comm) at a Class D airport you're landing at... you don't have to find frequencies and/or change them on the radio. I realize that for most of you, this isn't a big deal... but at least for me finding the right frequency at the right time (which is actually ahead of the time you need it) and entering it in the radio (verifying you put it into the correct one... usually the standby) is a fair amount of work to add onto the already burdensome task of flying a plane and not getting lost.

 

[mjburian]

Marty

I have attached a sheet I still use every flight. I can note the duats info then call FSS and note the briefing also (it helps to see that the briefing matches up to what I read) I also have a few lines to fill in on the top that provides the briefer with all the info they need. The info the give you matches the order of the document, it helps with the flow. As others have stated, ask them to slow down or repeat, it's your flight and your in charge. Hope it helps.

Try printing out the kneeboard size sheets from the AOPA airport directory, they provide a host of info and they will fit under your flight plan on the kneeboard. Here is the link.

Thanks for the spreadsheet... I'll print a few of those out. I did print out the kneeboard-size sheet from AOPA for the airport we were going to, the problem is my kneeboard didn't work out. I didn't have it for the first dual xc and realized quickly that I needed something to keep all of the paper under control.

I thought the Sporty's kneeboard was going to help, but shortly after takeoff I threw it in the back and went back to the "left hand on the yoke, paperwork on the right knee (being held down by the right elbow), and right hand holding a pen and doing everything other than flying" routine.

 

[skyflyer8]

Marty,

Ditto to all of the above.

Add: Does your instructor have anyone else working on XCs right now? Ask to ride along to observe. I've gotten lots of positive comments from students of mine who have ridden along on others' XCs. Have a chart and a copy of the flight planning sheet.

 

[Capjac]

I had many of the same problems you did. I just got my PPL last year and the X-C's were frustrating, mainly because I wanted to go places and sight see, but I was overwhelmed by all the stuff needing done. Here are some of the things I did to get over the hump.

Call FSS on every flight, even when doing pattern work. And, as mentioned already, tell them you are a student. In a short time calling FSS was as routine as when my instructor called. I even told the tower, approach, center etc. I was a student. (Didn't care if they laughed at me either!) This worked out well when I landed at MCI (Class B) and turned off on the wrong taxi-way. When my instructor informed them of what I did you could hear the chuckles in the background.

Study the form you use to do X-C's. I found that I was very good at filling in the blanks before the flight, but during the flight I had to search for the little boxes to use. I also made my own form up with parts of others that I liked.

The night before the flight, Chair Fly the route. Then write down everything you are going to do and say. Start at pre-flight and include potential frequencies and what you will actually say to the tower, center, FSS etc. Kinda like pre-flighting the flight itself. Study this and it will come to you during the flight.

BELIEVE your instructor, I could have sworn mine was lying to me when he told me I did OK, but looking back I WAS doing OK, for a student. I just didn't fly as well as my instructor! Do not be too hard on yourself, these guys know what they are doing.

There is no better feeling (solo included, IMHO) than completing your first solo X-C. Have fun.

 

[mjburian]

Marty,

Ditto to all of the above.

Add: Does your instructor have anyone else working on XCs right now? Ask to ride along to observe. I've gotten lots of positive comments from students of mine who have ridden along on others' XCs. Have a chart and a copy of the flight planning sheet.

Unfortunately not. My instructor is my dad. He's not instructing for money at all... in fact, his time is being offered for nothing to me. That's the reason he wanted me to get into the ground school class... so I had some interaction with other student pilots.

But, you bring up a good point. I might check with my ground school instructor and see if he has any students doing cross country work... maybe I could ride along with them. How does that generally work, though? Does the "ride along" pay for any instructor time? Do they generally help the flying student offset their costs?

 

[mjburian]

I had many of the same problems you did. I just got my PPL last year and the X-C's were frustrating, mainly because I wanted to go places and sight see, but I was overwhelmed by all the stuff needing done. Here are some of the things I did to get over the hump.

Call FSS on every flight, even when doing pattern work. And, as mentioned already, tell them you are a student. In a short time calling FSS was as routine as when my instructor called. I even told the tower, approach, center etc. I was a student. (Didn't care if they laughed at me either!) This worked out well when I landed at MCI (Class B) and turned off on the wrong taxi-way. When my instructor informed them of what I did you could hear the chuckles in the background.

Study the form you use to do X-C's. I found that I was very good at filling in the blanks before the flight, but during the flight I had to search for the little boxes to use. I also made my own form up with parts of others that I liked.

The night before the flight, Chair Fly the route. Then write down everything you are going to do and say. Start at pre-flight and include potential frequencies and what you will actually say to the tower, center, FSS etc. Kinda like pre-flighting the flight itself. Study this and it will come to you during the flight.

BELIEVE your instructor, I could have sworn mine was lying to me when he told me I did OK, but looking back I WAS doing OK, for a student. I just didn't fly as well as my instructor! Do not be too hard on yourself, these guys know what they are doing.

There is no better feeling (solo included, IMHO) than completing your first solo X-C. Have fun.

Thank you very much for your insight. Actually, you reminded me of another "change" from our original flight. I flight planned the original trip with a flight plan form I was familiar with. My instructor thought the form was too complicated (he's probably right) and provided an easier-to-use flight planning form. The problem was, once we were in the air... I had a hard time remembering which box was for what information. Not that I wouldn't have had any problems if the form hadn't changed... but I'm sure it didn't help either.

I've been thinking about taking both forms and cutting them up (with scissors) and taping them into a new form. I see ups and downs to both forms... but they are both purchased forms. I like the idea of having some control over what information goes on the form. For instance, the original form has a great section for frequencies and performance information. The new form leaves that stuff out completely (except for a small box for a single frequency at the departure and destination airports)... but looks to be quite a bit easier for listing checkpoints, times, distances, fuel, etc.

After I got back home from the flight yesterday, it hit me that I should have prepared more. I decided that I would chair fly the route ahead of time next time I go out. And, actually, I'm thinking about making a checklist for all of the things I have to do throughout the flight. If I have time, I'd like to refer to that checklist along the flight and cross things off once I have done them. For instance, on my way into the Class C the checklist would include things like:

* Listen to ATIS (put approach freq in the radio)
* Contact Approach (put tower freq in other radio)
* Switch to tower freq (put ground in the other radio)
...etc

I felt like I was barely keeping up with things I had to do... much less being able to think ahead and maybe make things a little easier on me.

 

[Capjac]

The good news is since you recognize what you need to do, you will fix them. I will upload the form I made, feel free to use it all, or part or none. (Unfortunately I am at work, so I will upload it tomorrow.) I cut out the parts I did not use, and since I made it, it was easier to understand.

 

[mjburian]

Is there any reason I can't (or shouldn't) call FSS when I'm practicing filling out the flight plan? For instance, my instructor has asked me to plan our next cross country twice during this coming week. In the past, I have done that by getting a briefing from DUATS. If I can practice getting and understanding briefings over the phone, I'm sure that would alleviate some of the stress of the process.

But, I understand the rest of you might have a harder time getting someone on the phone if I'm "wasting" the briefers' time for a flight plan that will never be executed.

Thoughts?

 

[mjburian]

The good news is since you recognize what you need to do, you will fix them. I will upload the form I made, feel free to use it all, or part or none. (Unfortunately I am at work, so I will upload it tomorrow.) I cut out the parts I did not use, and since I made it, it was easier to understand.

Note to self: Add "ask Capjac for a copy of the form he made" to the list of things I have forgotten today.

Thanks.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Is there any reason I can't (or shouldn't) call FSS when I'm practicing filling out the flight plan? For instance, my instructor has asked me to plan our next cross country twice during this coming week. In the past, I have done that by getting a briefing from DUATS. If I can practice getting and understanding briefings over the phone, I'm sure that would alleviate some of the stress of the process.


Thoughts?

How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice. Call FSS for briefings. Tell them you are a student pilot. Ask them to slow down if necessary. Do it over and over again until you know what to expect.

Make up your own forms that meet your needs. Hubby made up his own, I downloaded one from the Internet, tried writing on a small pad, then ended up using 3 x 5 cards paper-clipped to my kneeboard.

But, I understand the rest of you might have a harder time getting someone on the phone if I'm "wasting" the briefers' time for a flight plan that will never be executed.

Right now, you are helping me the most by becoming the best pilot possible. That means getting as familiar as possible with the 'system."

 

[mjburian]

Thank you to everyone for your help. I think the main things I'm going to work on this week will be:

* Call FSS and practice flight plan the proposed flights for this weekend (making sure they know I'm a student pilot and not being afraid to ask them to slow down or repeat something)
* Chair fly the route, keeping in mind what I will likely need to do and when I'll need to do it
* Figure out a way to make my kneeboard work (including getting my sectional folded up to a manageable size), so I won't have as much loose paper in the cockpit
* Decide on (or create) a flight plan form that will work for me (at least based on the limited experience I have with them)

I appreciate all of the comments and will continue to monitor this thread throughout the week in case there are more suggestions and/or advice. Hopefully, weather will cooperate this weekend and I'll update you all on how it goes.

Thanks again.

 

[gprellwitz]

As soon as I switch to a new frequency, I immediately put in the next frequency I'm likely to need.

Great to be ahead of the curve, but, unless you've written down the previous frequency, I'd wait until I'd received a reply on the new freq before I replaced it with the supposed next one. If you don't get a reply, it's real nice to be able to hit the flip-flop button and talk to the last people you knew could converse with you!

If you're planning to traverse the same route backwards on the return, it can be useful to write down the freqs as yo get them, since that will probably be the same sequence in reverse on the way back! (That'll depend on the time of day and a few other factors, of course.)

 

[Ted]

I'd agree with everything said. It sounds like more than anything you need to get more practice time in. It might also help if you went and spent some more time at a class D airport. For the record, IPT (where I fly out of) DOES have a ground frequency as well as tower. When you land they've always told me to taxi to [wherever I'm going] on the tower frequency, but when I start the plane back up, I'm supposed to make initial contact with ground.

Keep on practicing, and it will make sense. I agree with having a cheat sheet - it really helps and makes your work load easier. But more than anything, you would benefit from being in more situations where you're forced to have a higher workload, so it doesn't become a big stress item for you anymore.

The best parallel so far in my training I can draw is on landings. IPT has two huge (relatively speaking) runways. Getting the 172 down somewhere on there is really easy. Just about the time I thought I was doing an alright job and feeling confident about landing there, my instructor took me to a new airport with a much smaller runway. This was when I was still pre-solo, probably about 6 or 7 hours. After screwing up my pattern, I had the ONLY go-around I've had to do so far in my training, and then when I actually landed on the second try I wasn't feeling the least bit comfortable about it. Nevermind the fact that I couldn't even find the airport. What happened was I was used to things being a particular way with a particular work load that I was comfortable with, and then I got handed something that was significantly different, and it was somewhat overwhelming. It sounds like this is all that hapened to you.

Now, I don't think twice about even tiny runways. Some are more difficult than others, certainly, but the point is I got more practice doing it and now it's not a big deal.

You done good, just keep at it! And ask flight service to slow down or repeat. For me personally, talking to others and asking them to repeat things or speak slower is something I really didn't want to do at first, but they don't mind and it makes it much easier once you do.

For radio work, spending time at a controlled field would certainly help. Also, something that I like listening to is liveatc.net (thanks to Missa for sending me that link). It's hard to follow at first, but if you just have it on in the background while you're working, you'll start to pick up on things, and sometimes it's outright humorous.

 

[stingray]

Is there any reason I can't (or shouldn't) call FSS when I'm practicing filling out the flight plan? For instance, my instructor has asked me to plan our next cross country twice during this coming week. In the past, I have done that by getting a briefing from DUATS. If I can practice getting and understanding briefings over the phone, I'm sure that would alleviate some of the stress of the process.

But, I understand the rest of you might have a harder time getting someone on the phone if I'm "wasting" the briefers' time for a flight plan that will never be executed.

Thoughts?

Marty I think because you are familiar with Duats you should use it. Just call Flight Service first and get all the info. Then go over it with the Duats info. Fars say to use "All avaliable info". It may also help to get an abreviated briefing from FSS every day. "Conditions for a 30 min flight" it will help you get used to talking to FSS.

Never launch if you are not comfortable for any reason, it is not worth it and gives you the wrong message if you do get back in one piece.

Dan

 

[rottydaddy]

Ditto, ditto ditto... especially the fact that the more you make trips like this, the easier it gets. I think everybody goes through an "overwhelmed" stage when they start doing XCs: the data-gathering, talking to FSS and ATC, navigating, unfamiliar routes and airports... it's a lot to take in.

 

[Capjac]

I finally got home from work and am attempting to upload my sheet I use for XC. Hope this works!

After uploading, I see that they do not list Excel as an uploadable file, I will try anyway, if it does not go through, send me an email address and I will send it that way.

 

[AuntPeggy]

After uploading, I see that they do not list Excel as an uploadable file, I will try anyway, if it does not go through, send me an email address and I will send it that way.

Try zipping the file in WinZip, then upload.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Marty I think because you are familiar with Duats you should use it. Just call Flight Service first and get all the info. Then go over it with the Duats info.

I was actually going to suggest the opposite - Get as much info online as you can and review it, then call the briefer. That way you'll know a fair amount already and you'll be able to better comprehend what the briefer says.

Also, try recording a few briefings so you can pause them or listen to them over again. They should be going over the information in the same order every time you call, so after you listen to enough of them, you'll know what's coming and be able to absorb it better.

 

[stingray]

I was actually going to suggest the opposite - Get as much info online as you can and review it, then call the briefer. That way you'll know a fair amount already and you'll be able to better comprehend what the briefer says.

That's how I do it. You can acctually give the briefer some suggestions that way. I've been told a few times that "You can't get through", but after I explained a roundabout route he would start really looking for a solution.

I was trying to get him to learn (Not step on the CFI's toes) and yet still be comfortable flying.

Dan

 

[Henning]

Yesterday I had my second dual cross country flight. My first was on December 8, 2007... and actually, yesterday was only my 3rd lesson since Thanksgiving (due to weather). During the first dual xc, I felt fairly confident that I could accomplish the necessary tasks when I was flying the route solo. Yesterday, however, was the complete opposite -- I felt like there was *way* more going on than I could keep track of both in the air and on the ground.

First, the route of flight got changed at the last minute. The METARS and TAFs all looked good (for once), but when we called Flight Service they advised against VFR flight along our planned route. This, combined with the fact that I've never called Flight Service for a briefing (I have used DUATS to the point where I'm comfortable with it, but my instructor wanted me to give "calling in" a try) caused me quite a bit of stress. 1)While on the phone, the briefer was giving me information *way* faster than I could write it down... and I wasn't sure which of the things he was saying were important and which weren't. Any advice on getting better at taking a pre-flight briefing over the phone?

Because of the weather, the flight was changed from 3 legs (about 200 miles total) to an "out and back" of about 100 miles total. However, to get the most benefit possible we added more checkpoints and purposely went out of our way a bit to bring a second VOR into the navigation.2) It really felt like every minute or two there was something to mark down on the navigation log (time to checkpoint, ahead or behind and how much, fuel burn for the leg, fuel remaining, actual ground speed, etc). I felt like if I gave that stuff the attention it needed, I wouldn't be paying enough attention to the actual "flying"... and since I was taught to "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" I didn't give the navigation and communication the attention it needed.

Also, our destination happened to be a Class C airport... an airspace type in which I've never flown. As a matter of fact, I've only done 2 total landings at an airport with a control tower (both Class D). The original plan had us going to a Class D airport first (to get me comfortable on the radio again) and then into the Class C (just to get some experience with it). Due to the weather, we were only able to get into the Class C.

3)Anyway, I felt overwhelmed and just wanted to know what you guys thought I could do to get over this hump. I had a similar feeling about my abilities before my first solo... so I'm trying not to get down on myself. Instead, I want to push through it by trying to study/practice as much as I can between flights. Just wondering what you guys think might be the best way to approach the study/practice regimen.

By the way, my instructor did say that I shouldn't feel bad about anything. The last minute change caused the route to be shortened, so there was a lot going on in a short time. I have another dual scheduled for next weekend, and he decided to make it a longer out and back. That way there would be more time just flying the plane instead of climb, hurry up and figure out time/speed/distance stuff, descend.

A few points I'll address:
1) "Excuse me, could you back up and slow down just a bit, I'm new at this and learning." 20 years ago, that would not only get you a briefing, but an analysis of the analysis and a lesson in how to analyse the info that he was giving you, and how to make decissions on that analysis. Anymore YMMV, but there are still some good briefers out there.

2) I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but you are paying way too much attention to the minutia, way more than necessary. You track all this with rough mental gouges gauged against time of fuel on board minus one hour. Your efforts are much better spent paying attention outside the windows and to what the aircraft is doing and for any potential traffic. I suggest you get a count down timer to track fuel time with. Set it to an hour less than you have on board and judge your progress against it. Typically, on a short cross country, you only need to calculate your ground speed once per direction, and if you plot the on the E6B, you can do it once for a 100 mile flight and then adjust the E6B with course change and be pretty good unless you fly through a front. As soon as your quick gouges show that you won't make it to your destination before that timer runs out, then you have to calculate with precission when it will, if that calculation takes you below 1/2 an hour, you figure out where to land and pick up some fuel. You don't need to know exactly how much fuel you have, you just have to know enough/not enough, and you can figure that off your navigation/time log which from the sounds of it, you are keeping a bit too tightly spaced.

3) Practice, practice, practice. You are at the very bottom of your learning curve, don't sweat it, it'll all come together.

 

[skyflyer8]

But, you bring up a good point. I might check with my ground school instructor and see if he has any students doing cross country work... maybe I could ride along with them. How does that generally work, though? Does the "ride along" pay for any instructor time? Do they generally help the flying student offset their costs?

Sorry for the late response. In my experience, no and no. As long as the instructor focuses his or her attention on the left-seat student and not the ride-along observer, the student is getting their money's worth. In fact, he or she is benefitting from learning about handling the plane with extra weight and a real-world distraction.

 

[gprellwitz]

Sorry for the late response. In my experience, no and no. As long as the instructor focuses his or her attention on the left-seat student and not the ride-along observer, the student is getting their money's worth. In fact, he or she is benefitting from learning about handling the plane with extra weight and a real-world distraction.

And that also means that as a ride-along I'm silent unless I'm directly addressed or see something that's immediately safety related. I don't want to be taking the instructor's attention from the student who's paying. OTOH, it could be argued that in some circumstances it could be better to have additional conversation going on. Make sure you work it out ahead of time, though.

 

[mjburian]

Thanks again to everyone for your advice/insight. On Saturday, I had a dual cross country and things went *much* better. I think it was due to a combination of factors, but mainly:

* I called FSS quite a few times since the last cross country, just to get comfortable with the flow of a briefing.

* I planned the flight ahead of time, down to every last detail I could think of and asked my instructor to offer any additions that he thought might be likely. Then, I "chair flew" the route... making sure to keep in mind the items on the checklist I had created.

* After having a hard time finding a few of the checkpoints last time, I revised my criteria for what would be considered a "good" checkpoint.

* I practiced as much as possible with the E6-B so that I wouldn't fumble at all with it once we were in the air.

* The planned flight went off without a hitch (no last minute change of destination, launch time, etc). Also, the trip was longer... so I had a chance to "get comfortable" between takeoff and approach to the destination airport.

* I had flown recently, so I wasn't as rusty with the "Aviate" portion of the flight... and could dedicate more time to the "Navigate" and "Communicate" portions.

Again, thanks to everyone that offered suggestions. I honestly think you have helped me to understand what needs to go into planning a cross country flight (beyond just get a briefing and file a flight plan).

One additional question, though, if you don't mind. On our trip from 57C to DBQ we got flight following from RFD Approach (I planned ahead for this and had the necessary frequencies). However, immediately after leaving 57C we tried to contact MKE Approach to pick up flight following once we were off the ground. We didn't get a response back (no problem, I know it's "workload permitting")... so we waited a bit and then contacted RFD Approach and got the service.

My question is, how do I know who to contact for flight following based on my position? For instance, at some point heading west from 57C we will leave MKE's airspace. How do I know at what point that happens? Also, how do I know if I have entered RFD's coverage area yet? This might seem like a fairly basic question, but my instructor is unreachable for a few days and I have checked with Google and can't seem to get the right search terms to get a map of coverage areas. Does something like this exist (and if so, where can I find it)?

Assuming weather cooperates, I will be doing my first solo xc on Thursday or Saturday (I'm on the schedule for both days, to help increase my odds of actually getting in the air). Unfortunately, if I can't get the solo xc in on one of those days, I'll have to do another dual xc before I can solo (my instructor wants the solo xc to happen within a week of the dual, to be sure everything is relatively fresh in my mind).

 

[Steve]

The best way to get that information is make a visit to the local TRACON facility. They'll have a graphic of their "airspace" and possibly those of the facilities around theirs. I've seen them presented at FAA safety meetings, too, so you may want to watch for one of those in your area.

If you haven't signed up yet you might consider registering online for notifications of scheduled safety meetings

http://www.faasafety.gov/SPANS/default.aspx

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One additional question, though, if you don't mind. On our trip from 57C to DBQ we got flight following from RFD Approach (I planned ahead for this and had the necessary frequencies). However, immediately after leaving 57C we tried to contact MKE Approach to pick up flight following once we were off the ground. We didn't get a response back (no problem, I know it's "workload permitting")... so we waited a bit and then contacted RFD Approach and got the service.

My question is, how do I know who to contact for flight following based on my position? For instance, at some point heading west from 57C we will leave MKE's airspace. How do I know at what point that happens? Also, how do I know if I have entered RFD's coverage area yet? This might seem like a fairly basic question, but my instructor is unreachable for a few days and I have checked with Google and can't seem to get the right search terms to get a map of coverage areas. Does something like this exist (and if so, where can I find it)?

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[gprellwitz]

My question is, how do I know who to contact for flight following based on my position? For instance, at some point heading west from 57C we will leave MKE's airspace. How do I know at what point that happens? Also, how do I know if I have entered RFD's coverage area yet? This might seem like a fairly basic question, but my instructor is unreachable for a few days and I have checked with Google and can't seem to get the right search terms to get a map of coverage areas. Does something like this exist (and if so, where can I find it)?

I don't know of a map for that. Presuming I'm below 10000' (as I usually am), I'll check the AF/D to too who's listed as approach control for an airport near my location. Above 10000', just contact Center. The center boundaries are shown on the low altitude en route chart, but I don't expect you'll have that. Some GPS's have them listed under "nearest."

 

[ScottM]

One additional question, though, if you don't mind. On our trip from 57C to DBQ we got flight following from RFD Approach (I planned ahead for this and had the necessary frequencies). However, immediately after leaving 57C we tried to contact MKE Approach to pick up flight following once we were off the ground. We didn't get a response back (no problem, I know it's "workload permitting")... so we waited a bit and then contacted RFD Approach and got the service.

My question is, how do I know who to contact for flight following based on my position? For instance, at some point heading west from 57C we will leave MKE's airspace. How do I know at what point that happens? Also, how do I know if I have entered RFD's coverage area yet? This might seem like a fairly basic question, but my instructor is unreachable for a few days and I have checked with Google and can't seem to get the right search terms to get a map of coverage areas. Does something like this exist (and if so, where can I find it)?

I don't know of a map for that. Presuming I'm below 10000' (as I usually am), I'll check the AF/D to too who's listed as approach control for an airport near my location. Above 10000', just contact Center. The center boundaries are shown on the low altitude en route chart, but I don't expect you'll have that. Some GPS's have them listed under "nearest."

57C is probably just on the edge of MKE's coverage. A good rule of thumb is below 10k and less that 20NM from the center of the Class C you can get FF. It is just a rule of thumb and works around the Midwest pretty well but YMMV.

A good way to see what freq and who to contact is to go to the AOPA site and look at any approach plate for the airport you are departing from. Look at who at the frequency tab to see who approach control is and contact them upon departure. The GPS 8 into 57C show MKE App on 125.35MHz.

You can always beg an instrument pilot for an outdated low alt. enroute chart too and you can get some of the freqs and see coverage there as well. The worst that usually happens is either no response or being told to change to another frequency.

Also for future knowledge KRFD TRSA coverage ends right at 0C0.

 

[gprellwitz]

A good way to see what freq and who to contact is to go to the AOPA site and look at any approach plate for the airport you are departing from. Look at who at the frequency tab to see who approach control is and contact them upon departure.

I think this is the same as is shown in the AF/D, which he should already have with him. But yes, instrument plates are another good source. And, as Scott says, try a reasonable guess. If it isn't right, they'll usually give you the right frequency, unless you're talking to Chicago Approach!

 

[ScottM]

I think this is the same as is shown in the AF/D, which he should already have with him. But yes, instrument plates are another good source. And, as Scott says, try a reasonable guess. If it isn't right, they'll usually give you the right frequency, unless you're talking to Chicago Approach!

Call Chi-App on 133.5 and ask. You'll get try "Suggest you contact approach on 120.55, lots of luck with that Ha ha"

 

[ScottM]

I think this is the same as is shown in the AF/D, which he should already have with him. But yes, instrument plates are another good source. And, as Scott says, try a reasonable guess. If it isn't right, they'll usually give you the right frequency, unless you're talking to Chicago Approach!

You are right he probably has the AFD. The plate are free form AOPA. I am just not in the habit of looking at the AFD. I usually look at an online flight planner when doing all that stuff and my AFD is in the plane in case I need when diverting.

 

[mjburian]

57C is probably just on the edge of MKE's coverage. A good rule of thumb is below 10k and less that 20NM from the center of the Class C you can get FF. It is just a rule of thumb and works around the Midwest pretty well but YMMV.

A good way to see what freq and who to contact is to go to the AOPA site and look at any approach plate for the airport you are departing from. Look at who at the frequency tab to see who approach control is and contact them upon departure. The GPS 8 into 57C show MKE App on 125.35MHz.

You can always beg an instrument pilot for an outdated low alt. enroute chart too and you can get some of the freqs and see coverage there as well. The worst that usually happens is either no response or being told to change to another frequency.

Also for future knowledge KRFD TRSA coverage ends right at 0C0.

Does anything other than experience tell you that coverage from RFD ends at 0C0? We were able to reach them and get FF somewhere near JVL.

Like I said, I know MKE App covers the area around 57C... but by the time I take off, initiate the climb to altitude, and work to get on course and finding my first checkpoint... I have left their airspace. Hence, the reason we contacted RFD App.