Student Pilot XC Issues - Help!

[KennyFlys]

First of all, I apologize for starting the argument (again, apparently) over whether or not a student pilot should learn GPS before taking the PPL checkride.

Marty, you didn't do anything but bring up an issue that should be addressed. Some of the responses dictate you did us all a favor.

Secondly, I know that my instructor (as my father) has my well-being in mind first and foremost. You guys can continue to argue for or against, but (no offense) I only have confidence in one person as far as my flight training goes... and that is the person I chose to be my instructor. So, regardless of the opinions voiced here the only one that matters (to me) is the one I hear in the cockpit during my instruction.

Whether training is right or wrong, if the student does not trust their instructor, there will be no learning. It sounds like you picked the right guy for your training. You both are going for the basics according to the PTS. You can't go wrong there. Given your dad is a professional pilot and also an active instructor, I'm sure he'll keep you on track for further training to prepare you for a job such as his.

Finally, I completed my first solo xc flight less than 12 hours ago... and, although the flight went very well (there's a lot more time to think, plan and look for checkpoints without an instructor talking to you every few minutes)... the *one* thing I wish I didn't have in the plane was the GPS. As I said earlier, it's a handheld that is suction-cupped to the windscreen. During my departure climb out on the outbound leg... guess which instrument in the plane "broke loose" and landed on my lap?

Congratulations on your first solo flight. Now, it may become apparent as to one of the purposes of an instructor... to give you distractions and force you to work through them while performing needed functions for the safety of flight. I recall during commercial training I wanted to tell my instructor to shut up on more than one occasion. But, that pressure will also help you make it through a checkride and subsequent events while exercising your privileges.

A GPS receiver on suction cups can be an issue. I don't know if you're using "moisture" of sorts to give the cups a seal but that helps a lot. The other solution is perhaps mounting it on the other side of the cabin so if it does fall, it certainly won't happen during a critical phase of flight.

I'll look forward to hearing more about your progress.

 

[ScottM]

First of all, I apologize for starting the argument (again, apparently) over whether or not a student pilot should learn GPS before taking the PPL checkride.

Not an argument it is a discussion and no need to apologize. This is the learning style of the board users. we present our side of an issue and let people poke holes in it or support it. In the end we all learn something.

 

[stingray]

No, you first teach what is required. After that, you teach what is in the airplane as if it's installed, it's fair game during the ride.

The PTS rules. And, as I said earlier... whatever is in that PTS is fair game during a Flight Review. In fact, there isn't much in Part 91 that isn't fair game. If the CFI doing your FR isn't touching on those aspects of flight planning, navigation and cockpit resource management among many other things, they are doing you a disservice.

Safety is always first Ken, and using everything at your disposal is how you achieve that. For VFR flight you need a basic understanding of the VOR. You do not need to show you can fly an ILS to min. You need to show you know how to find out where you are using it. I never had a problem with you teaching anyone how to use the VOR radio, I just cannot see why you having such a problem with pilots using the GPS. If used correctly the GPS is a great tool. Use it. I do agree that being dependent on the magenta line is not a good thing, but that does not mean turn it off, that means learn to use it correctly. In other words keep it off the moving map page but learn how to navigate through it. From experience with the 430 I could say that if you started teaching it on the first lesson the student still would not be comfortable or know everything about it by the time they passed their test. Look at your last sentence, cockpit resource management. That means being able to manage the resources in your cockpit. I am not sure on this, but if it is in the plane you had better know how to use it. Because you can be tested on anything in the plane.

Dan

 

[KennyFlys]

Safety is always first Ken, and using everything at your disposal is how you achieve that. For VFR flight you need a basic understanding of the VOR. You do not need to show you can fly an ILS to min. You need to show you know how to find out where you are using it. I never had a problem with you teaching anyone how to use the VOR radio, I just cannot see why you having such a problem with pilots using the GPS. If used correctly the GPS is a great tool. Use it. I do agree that being dependent on the magenta line is not a good thing, but that does not mean turn it off, that means learn to use it correctly. In other words keep it off the moving map page but learn how to navigate through it. From experience with the 430 I could say that if you started teaching it on the first lesson the student still would not be comfortable or know everything about it by the time they passed their test. Look at your last sentence, cockpit resource management. That means being able to manage the resources in your cockpit. I am not sure on this, but if it is in the plane you had better know how to use it. Because you can be tested on anything in the plane.

Dan

We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not opposed to teaching proficiency on any GPS but for a primary student it will come long after one knows how to navigate by basic means followed by VOR. If you came to me for a Flight Review, you would get questioned about VOR usage just as much or more than GPS. During discussion, I would determine how much you use GPS. Either way, at some point during that flight you would be asked to track course, heading and altitude within PTS or better and it won't be using the GPS. I'd be asking about ground references and asking you to show me where we are on an old fashioned moving map. That's where you move your finger along the course line on your chart. I think they call that pilotage.

I'm guessing every flight you make away from the home 'drome is GPS direct coupled to autopilot. No serious airspace to be concerned with so it's just a sight-seeing flight en route. I doubt there's much hand-flying the plane.

I read a story a year or so ago by an ATP who missed the older days of flying an airliner. His company's current policy limited the hand-flying their planes. He was thrilled on the times he would uncouple and hand-fly the entire approach. Our school's planes are old and avionics look like a mis-match from a flea market but they work. But, those limitations forced me to hand-fly the entire time. I'm thankful for that.

 

[poadeleted20]

That is to take the test, but after you have your PL a VFR pilot does not need a VOR, GPS, or an ADF in the plane. So if the student wants to use the GPS rather than the VOR why make him/her wait until late or after they have their PL. Why not teach them how to totally use the GPS and instruct them on the use of the VOR. You will need a basic understanding of the VOR to pass the written. I am not saying to not teach the VOR I am saying the student is going to use the GPS anyway why not make sure they know it inside and out.

There is no reason not to teach a Student Pilot how to use the GPS installed in the plane in which they are training, and, since it's fair game on the PPL practical test, every reason to do so (as long as they first learn how to navigate safely without it). And if there's no VOR in the plane, it is not necessary to do any flight training on VOR. Either way, the plane will have to have some sort of electronic nav equipment in it for the test, and that equipment must be learned for the test. But whatever electronic equipment is in the plane, a solid grounding in DR/pilotage is an essential prior step to learning radio navigation.

 

[stingray]

I'm guessing every flight you make away from the home 'drome is GPS direct coupled to autopilot. No serious airspace to be concerned with so it's just a sight-seeing flight en route. I doubt there's much hand-flying the plane.

You would be so wrong Ken. I use chartcase and plan out my trip to the fullest. I use the best route available. I do not go into airspace unnecessarily, I go around over under where I can. I use airports, VOR's and waypoints. I own a VIKING, I hand fly. I flew the Six on autopilot. How many people put the corvette on cruise. I don't think you read my posts very well. I use the magenta line very little. I am usually on the OBS page or data page. I like talking to airports as I pass, I give Pilot reports when I can. I will usually talk talk to class D towers when I pass so they know I'm there. Ken almost every flight for me (Unless I am just going to work, which I do without any GPS or VOR 40 miles) is a long cross country which requires plenty of planning.

Dan

 

[stingray]

There is no reason not to teach a Student Pilot how to use the GPS installed in the plane in which they are training, and, since it's fair game on the PPL practical test, every reason to do so (as long as they first learn how to navigate safely without it). And if there's no VOR in the plane, it is not necessary to do any flight training on VOR. Either way, the plane will have to have some sort of electronic nav equipment in it for the test, and that equipment must be learned for the test. But whatever electronic equipment is in the plane, a solid grounding in DR/pilotage is an essential prior step to learning radio navigation.

I agree whole heartedly.

Dan

 

[nosehair]

I forgot the CFI was your dad. Makes more sense to a point. All he is saying is your training will not stop at your check ride. You have to pass my (CFI) checkride then your good to go. I do the same thing with my son, after he solo's he then gets to do some dual time with me until I am comfortable with his progress. It's a dad thing.

Here is the essence of this whole GPS/pilotage argument: It's a dad thing.

So why do you think a dad wants his offspring to survive? Why would he want the flesh of his loins to be as proficient as he possibly can, and why do you think that learning basic pilotage and dead-reckoning is made a priority before using a machine that does it for you?

You all sound like the kids of today who cannot do simple math in their heads because they are allowed to use calculators in school. That is the fear of all us older pilots - we think you are gonna meet Mother Nature unprepared someday as a result of not being able to navigate with a chart.

He's concerned about his son's life - just as we (flight instructors) should be about every person we train to fly.

The bottom line of every judgement about someone's ability to fly is the question: "Would I let this person take my young daughter up in this airplane in these conditions?"

That's how personal instructors and examiners are supposed to be when recommending or certifying a pilot.

Don't you want to know that a pilot carrying your children has sufficient experience at basic navigation by charts and a compass when the GPS goes down?

Navigation by charts, compass and watch take practice - not just a couple of times to "get the idea", but to become really proficient.

It is poor form to take on an attitude that "training" should be "normal" operations. Training should include normal operations, but the majority of training should be on the basics, and abnormal operations.

There will be plenty of time to practice normal operations after checkride, but unusual, abnormal, emergency, and repetitive-for-proficiency items are what training is all about.

 

[stingray]

Here is the essence of this whole GPS/pilotage argument: It's a dad thing.

Your right training is a dad thing, I train my son. I feel a lot more comfortable that he knows how to use the GPS and that he has it in the plane with him on a CC. That way IF things go south he knows how to use it without fumbling around. That does not mean that he has to use it. He should use his pilotage skills to get him where he is going. We use dead-reckoning on all our trips to KBCK 120 miles away.

Don't you want to know that when things go bad using a chart for whatever reason (Chart flying out the window or getting tossed to far back in the plane) that your pilot knows how to use the rest of the equipment in the plane.

Dan

 

[Everskyward]

Not an argument it is a discussion and no need to apologize. This is the learning style of the board users. we present our side of an issue and let people poke holes in it or support it. In the end we all learn something.

I can see how it can be educational, as well as confusing, to some the newer pilots like the OP, especially ones who have only had one instructor, to be exposed to many viewpoints on the same subject. I think everyone has a common general goal, to fly around safely. However some of the various opinions about how to achieve that goal can vary widely.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I've gotta weigh in on this.

While it is important to learn how to properly (and fully) use GPS, I must vehemently disagree with it being used very early in training, as it allows the brain to get lazy.

When I was a kid, I was SCARY good at doing math in my head. Once, when I was in about 7th grade, my dad was giving me a ride to school and we were watching the sun rise and he idly said "I wonder how long it takes the sun to rise one degree." Literally less than two seconds later, I came back with "Four minutes per degree." Why am I telling you this? Because a year later, I got a calculator watch. My abilities to do math in my head went right out the window. Once I finally got rid of the calculator watch, it took a LONG time and a lot of effort to get anywhere close to as good as I had been, and I'm still not sure if I've made it back to the point I was before the calculator watch.

Likewise, when I began as a transportation manager for a traveling music group and had to navigate a fleet of large vehicles through unfamiliar territory, I quickly developed a very good sense of direction. Months later, a friend let me borrow his GPS for a few days. It was a wonderful tool... Until he went home and took it with him. I went to leave town and realized I hadn't the slightest clue where I was or which way I was facing! The GPS did to my situational awareness what the calculator watch did to my mental math abilities.

I'm afraid that allowing the GPS to even be turned on during the first couple of cross country flights would severely diminish the chances that the student pilot would ever develop the ability to build a detailed picture in their head of where they are, which way they're facing, and what their surroundings are.

That said, I also know what happens at the opposite end of the spectrum: The CFII that I used for my IR was Mr. Equipment Failure and while that helped me to handle failures and make sure I was always using as much redundancy as possible ("Well, my DME's about to fail so I'd better tune in the cross radials to identify these fixes...") it also led to me not making full use of the GPS. When I did my IPC with Tony, I gained quite a few tricks using the GPS that made things much easier (the ground track reading is very useful when trying to establish a reference heading, even if you didn't have anything in the flight plan on the GPS, for example.) So, I'll also say that this stuff DOES need to be taught, and needs to be taught pre-PPL *IF* the GPS is a panel-mount unit. With a handheld I think it's perfectly acceptable to take it out of the plane and worry about it after the checkride. (However, I also think it'd be a good thing for students to know how to use prior to their solo X-C's so they can do the Ron Levy method of having the GPS inside a sealed envelope just in case.)

I think it's all a matter of timing. Proper GPS use needs to be taught, but ONLY AFTER the student has mastered pilotage, DR, VOR's, ADF/NDB if equipped, and has developed the basic skills of situational awareness. THEN add the easy tool.

FWIW, with my students in the truck, I let them use my GPS briefly in the beginning for a couple of days until they're comfortable enough with the truck that I can start letting them navigate on their own. Then, I take it away for the remainder of the training. If the trainee purchases their own GPS for use after I'm done with them, I'll let them use it for the final week of training so that I can show them all the various quirks that need to be understood with the units, but NOT until they have developed the basic ability to build a map of their surroundings in their head. Rule #1: The GPS is a wonderful tool, but it is ONLY a tool.

 

[stingray]

I think it's all a matter of timing. Proper GPS use needs to be taught, but ONLY AFTER the student has mastered pilotage, DR, VOR's, ADF/NDB if equipped, and has developed the basic skills of situational awareness. THEN add the easy tool

How much easier does it get than an ADF. Tune in follow the needle. No situational awareness needed.

I think the big issue here is that everyone depicts a GPS as a Moving map GPS. I have three GPS's that I use. Only one has a moving map the 250 XL and it is so small it is useless, so I do not use that page. Even on the moving map page if you were to change the "Direct to" to something other than where they were going when they were not looking they would learn in a hurry that you do need Situational awareness even if you use a GPS.

It would not be any different than if Garmin were to combine two VOR radios and give a location on a moving map that updated every sec. You would get a location a dir, speed, and deviation from a depicted line. Are you going to say then that I don't want you to use the VOR's. No you are going to say that I don't want you to use the moving map page. I want you to learn how to navigate on your own using the same tools that the moving map uses.

I can't say how many times I have heard about non-moving map GPS's that they are worthless "I would not have one". It is not The GPS it is the moving map. My examiner covered me up with a map and had me do a climbing right turn. Then uncovered me and said lets head back to the airport. He wanted to see what I used first to find my way. I knew I was south of the airport so I just turned north using the DG. Then I used the GPS to get on course.

I think that using the GPS (Without the moving map) makes a pilot more aware of his surroundings. It definitely is not better than the ADF as far as not needing any awareness at all and being able to get to the NDB, radio tower or whatever.

There is no reason to teach the moving map page on a GPS, and there is no reason to even have that page up at all. It is self explanatory as is the ADF. It is too bad it cannot be disabled for training. Then just think how much better we would be as far as understanding the capabilities of the best thing in navigation in years.

Dan

 

[poadeleted20]

How much easier does it get than an ADF. Tune in follow the needle. No situational awareness needed.

That's exactly what the crew of the USAF T-43 carrying Ron Brown did, including the "no situational awareness" part. They splattered themselves and their passengers on a hillside in Croatia. You can read an outstanding analysis of what they did wrong here.

Bottom line is that flying ADF ain't that simple, which is why a lot of folks don't like to use it, and some don't ever get it down pat.

 

[stingray]

That's exactly what the crew of the USAF T-43 carrying Ron Brown did, including the "no situational awareness" part. They splattered themselves and their passengers on a hillside in Croatia. You can read an outstanding analysis of what they did wrong here.

Bottom line is that flying ADF ain't that simple, which is why a lot of folks don't like to use it, and some don't ever get it down pat.

That is hardling the same as flying VFR to an NDB. Using an ADF for an approach is a hard thing to do. That is why pilots do not like NDB approaches. Not the same thing as just flying to an NDB in VMC.

Dan

 

[ScottM]

That is hardling the same as flying VFR to an NDB. Using an ADF for an approach is a hard thing to do. That is why pilots do not like NDB approaches. Not the same thing as just flying to an NDB in VMC.

Dan

IMHO it is exactly the same thing. Just pointing the needle and flying to it without situation awareness or proper tracking procedures just gets you flying in circles to a point, that is called homing.

When using the ADF you need to actually know how to track it whether you are on an approach or in cruise.

Here is a good article on how to do it right http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/ndb-nav-adf-2.htm

 

[stingray]

IMHO it is exactly the same thing. Just pointing the needle and flying to it without situation awareness or proper tracking procedures just gets you flying in circles to a point, that is called homing.


When using the ADF you need to actually know how to track it whether you are on an approach or in cruise.

Here is a good article on how to do it right http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/ndb-nav-adf-2.htm

Scott, tune in your ADF look at the needle. Look outside the plane at a distant point in the direction of the needle. Now fly to that point. You are VFR, not flying on instruments. Flying VFR is flying outside the plane. Use the instruments for help. Flying VFR is different than flying on instruments. Both you and Ron are talking about flying on instruments.

Dan

 

[ribrahim]

Marty

Try printing out the kneeboard size sheets from the AOPA airport directory, they provide a host of info and they will fit under your flight plan on the kneeboard. Here is the link.

You must be a member to get to that link!

maybe you can attach it , if you could
Thanks

 

[gprellwitz]

You must be a member to get to that link!

maybe you can attach it , if you could
Thanks

Romani,
Since there's a different one for each airport, attaching it isn't really an option (not to mention the copyright issues). However, you should note that there's a free 6 month membership available to AOPA for flight students. Go to https://flighttraining.aopa.org/apps/student/ft_free.cfm?priority=SX05FST to sign up.

There are those here who will debate whether AOPA is worth it, but I think that (almost?) all will agree that it's worth trying for free!