Student Pilot XC Issues - Help!

[ScottM]

Does anything other than experience tell you that coverage from RFD ends at 0C0? We were able to reach them and get FF somewhere near JVL.

No it is experience that I learned that little tidbit. I am based at 10C and when flying form RFD airspace they would always have me start squawking 1200 when I was abeam 0C0.

Like I said, I know MKE App covers the area around 57C... but by the time I take off, initiate the climb to altitude, and work to get on course and finding my first checkpoint... I have left their airspace. Hence, the reason we contacted RFD App.

You can always try center and if they don't cover that airspace they will give you the right frequency and tell you who does. To get the right center freq you can use the low altitude chart or your GPS possibly. Many times I don't try and grab FF until I am in cruise. Too many other things going on to worry about FF. It is different in IFR when you are going to be talking to ATC but your already know who you will be talking to so things are all set up for you.

 

[mjburian]

I think this is the same as is shown in the AF/D, which he should already have with him. But yes, instrument plates are another good source. And, as Scott says, try a reasonable guess. If it isn't right, they'll usually give you the right frequency, unless you're talking to Chicago Approach!

I do have the AF/D with me... I guess maybe I just need to check the listings (and approach frequencies) for all of the airports along the way. In this case, the departure airport's information doesn't help much... since I seem to be out of MKE's airspace by the time things settle down enough to call them up.

Otherwise, are you guys suggesting I call MKE anyway (even though I'm not in their airspace) to determine who I should be calling?

It seems like so many other things that I'm learning require me to prepare for all of this ahead of time. That's all I'm trying to do here, is determine who I should be calling. Maybe FF is more of a fluid concept, though, requiring me to figure it out "on the fly".

 

[mjburian]

No it is experience that I learned that little tidbit. I am based at 10C and when flying form RFD airspace they would always have me start squawking 1200 when I was abeam 0C0.

You can always try center and if they don't cover that airspace they will give you the right frequency and tell you who does. To get the right center freq you can use the low altitude chart or your GPS possibly. Many times I don't try and grab FF until I am in cruise. Too many other things going on to worry about FF. It is different in IFR when you are going to be talking to ATC but your already know who you will be talking to so things are all set up for you.

Maybe center is the way to go. At least it will be consistent: contact center, ask for FF, have them tell me they don't cover the area, and get the correct frequency. It just seems like I should be able to research this on the ground in order to save center the hassle.

I agree with waiting until cruise flight... although, we have been waiting until we are established in cruise climb and on course, then we'll try to pick up FF.

As for the GPS suggestions... not allowed in my training. My instructor has specifically stated that we will not be using the GPS until after I get my ticket. He wants me to prove (to him, myself, and the examiner) that I can navigate without it. Obviously, though, in an emergency situation we'd use it... this just doesn't qualify.

 

[gprellwitz]

As for the GPS suggestions... not allowed in my training. My instructor has specifically stated that we will not be using the GPS until after I get my ticket. He wants me to prove (to him, myself, and the examiner) that I can navigate without it. Obviously, though, in an emergency situation we'd use it... this just doesn't qualify.

Bad decision on your instructor's part, IMHO. I think we've had other threads on this, and I encourage you to look them up.

 

[ScottM]

As for the GPS suggestions... not allowed in my training. My instructor has specifically stated that we will not be using the GPS until after I get my ticket. He wants me to prove (to him, myself, and the examiner) that I can navigate without it. Obviously, though, in an emergency situation we'd use it... this just doesn't qualify.

That is not a good idea. It should be treated just as any other piece of equipment. Learn use it but don't depend on it as your only navigational source. Learn to cross check position with your VORs, learn VOR nav as well as pilotage and ded reckoning. There is no reason to wait until after your ticket. Learn it now.

 

[mjburian]

That is not a good idea. It should be treated just as any other piece of equipment. Learn use it but don't depend on it as your only navigational source. Learn to cross check position with your VORs, learn VOR nav as well as pilotage and ded reckoning. There is no reason to wait until after your ticket. Learn it now.

I'm not sure what the arguments are for learning the GPS as part of initial training (I'll look up the other threads)... but I don't think it's too much of an issue. I know how to use the basic functions (from "fun flights" with my instructor, who is also my dad). He just doesn't want the GPS to be used instead of other forms of navigation... at least to start with.

Once I get my ticket, I'll spend a few lessons learning how to navigate solely with the GPS... but for now I think it would be too tempting to use only that (or at least, to rely *more* on that than the forms of navigation I am supposed to be mastering right now).

The GPS is a handheld mounted on the windscreen... so not learning it (to me) is the same as not having it in the plane. What if they didn't own the GPS? Then, I would train the same way I am now.

Please let me know if you think this is somehow making me a less proficient pilot, as I would be more than happy to discuss this with my instructor. Otherwise, I would assume that I am becoming a better pilot by learning other methods of navigation -- in case the GPS goes out while I'm up flying some day.

 

[KennyFlys]

For a primary student, I disagree with Scott on this one.

Marty, you're a VFR pilot. Make your first means of navigation pilotage and dead reckoning. After that, learn the needles and how to efficiently use VORs. In fact, never make a flight without being able to verify your position without at least one VOR tuned in. This should include while maneuvering out in the practice area as well as any XC. During cross-country flights, use pilotage and dead reckoning as first means and verify by VORs.

Finally, make GPS your tool for situational awareness as a last resort. Even in learning instruments, I'd push for learning needles and making GPS dead last in the course of available tools.

Learn those "ancient" forms of navigation while improving your flying skills. You'll be a better pilot in the end as a result.

 

[mjburian]

For a primary student, I disagree with Scott on this one.

Marty, you're a VFR pilot. Make your first means of navigation pilotage and dead reckoning. After that, learn the needles and how to efficiently use VORs. In fact, never make a flight without being able to verify your position without at least one VOR tuned in. This should include while maneuvering out in the practice area as well as any XC. During cross-country flights, use pilotage and dead reckoning as first means and verify by VORs.

Finally, make GPS your tool for situational awareness as a last resort. Even in learning instruments, I'd push for learning needles and making GPS dead last in the course of available tools.

Learn those "ancient" forms of navigation while improving your flying skills. You'll be a better pilot in the end as a result.

That's basically what I'm hearing from my instructor... and I agree (although, my opinion may not count for much this early in the game).

Basically, we flew from 57C to KDBQ using the JVL and DBQ VORs as well as checkpoints, a timer and the E6-B to tell us how we were doing. On the way out, it felt like we were using the VORs as primary navigation... but on the way back, we definitely used checkpoints more than the VORs (although, we did double-check ourselves with the needles).

I feel the same way about the GPS as I do about the E6-B. I got a "whiz wheel" early on and plan to use it throughout my training. I also have an electronic E6-B... which I intend to bring with me for the written test (to verify the "whiz wheel" answers I get). I also imagine that I will probably use the electronic E6-B primarily once I've graduated into the league of pilots. But knowing how to use the "whiz wheel" will give me a backup, should the batteries go dead on the electronic E6-B.

Again, I'm not saying it's right... but I feel like learning the hard way first will give me options in the event of an issue with the day-to-day stuff most pilots probably use.

 

[ScottM]

For a primary student, I disagree with Scott on this one.

Explain further why you do not think private pilots students should learn to use a GPS?

I completely agree that ALL forms of navigation should be taught and said so in my post. I disagree that the GPS should be a post private pilot learning experience. There is no reason not learn it. It was one of the things that might have prevented guys like Schaeffer and Martin from being such colossal FUs in the sky.

It is a tool, one of many in ones tool box. To not learn it is a missed opportunity.

 

[gprellwitz]

I'm with Scott on this one. No one is saying that you shouldn't be proficient in flying the plane with only the instruments on the panel. Or for that matter, with all the instruments covered up!

But you should know the full capabilities of the equipment you fly with. And that means not just using it to find your location and follow a magenta line from point A to point B, but, if applicable to the unit, use it to calculate rates of descent, to figure winds aloft and fuel remaining, to locate the nearest airport/VOR/Center/MOA etc., to get weather or traffic alerts, etc.

That said, my answer is tempered somewhat by the fact that this is a handheld. My original presumption was that it was in the panel, in which case I would have added that you should know all the equipment on the plane prior to the checkride, because it's all fair game to the examiner.

 

[KennyFlys]

Explain further why you do not think private pilots students should learn to use a GPS?

I completely agree that ALL forms of navigation should be taught and said so in my post. I disagree that the GPS should be a post private pilot learning experience. There is no reason not learn it. It was one of the things that might have prevented guys like Schaeffer and Martin from being such colossal FUs in the sky.

It is a tool, one of many in ones tool box. To not learn it is a missed opportunity.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be taught. But, there's an unfortunate pattern of pilots barely being proficient on basic navigation concepts. Too much emphasis is placed on GPS and more so for an instrument student.

That being said... if it's in the airplane, know how to use it. Be proficient at it. Just make it a tool but a tool of last resort during training and then when you do learn it, don't become dependent on it. That gets only worse for instrument-rated pilots. Dependency on GPS and autopilot has killed more than a few that doesn't seem to be ending soon. So, it pays to know the needles without GPS.

When I learned to fly twenty years ago, GPS development was still classified outside of the rumors. If a dork like me can learn to get around without it, so can anyone else.

As for Martin and Co., paying careful attention to a chart and good situational awareness... well, doesn't require a GPS.

 

[KennyFlys]

I'm with Scott on this one. No one is saying that you shouldn't be proficient in flying the plane with only the instruments on the panel. Or for that matter, with all the instruments covered up!

But you should know the full capabilities of the equipment you fly with. And that means not just using it to find your location and follow a magenta line from point A to point B, but, if applicable to the unit, use it to calculate rates of descent, to figure winds aloft and fuel remaining, to locate the nearest airport/VOR/Center/MOA etc., to get weather or traffic alerts, etc.

That said, my answer is tempered somewhat by the fact that this is a handheld. My original presumption was that it was in the panel, in which case I would have added that you should know all the equipment on the plane prior to the checkride, because it's all fair game to the examiner.

I addressed your last line in my post. If it's in there, know how to use it.

 

[gprellwitz]

For the most part, we all seem to be in violent agreement here. A primary student shouldn't be dependent on the GPS as a crutch or as even the primary means of information or situational awareness. I still take issue with the instructor's not teaching or allowing the use of the GPS before the private ticket. Teach it and then frequently "fail" it! But "fail" other things, too! Most of the time your head should be outside of the cockpit in primary training anyways!

 

[skyflyer8]

Thanks again to everyone for your advice/insight. On Saturday, I had a dual cross country and things went *much* better. I think it was due to a combination of factors, but mainly: (snip)

Marty, the first part of your post, with all the reasons your flight went better, reads like a handy list of tips for all XC students to consider! Great job! I am happy for you that you had such a much better time, this time, and learned so much! Your enthusiasm really shows. Best of luck in the rest of your training, and keep us posted.

 

[stingray]

As for the GPS suggestions... not allowed in my training. My instructor has specifically stated that we will not be using the GPS until after I get my ticket. He wants me to prove (to him, myself, and the examiner) that I can navigate without it. Obviously, though, in an emergency situation we'd use it... this just doesn't qualify.

Does he not allow you to use the ADF also. Does he cover up the DG and say I want you to use only the Compass. After you get your ticket you can use the DG. All he is doing is making you learn the GPS after you get your ticket. There is nothing wrong with learning the VOR with out using the GPS, but to say you cannot learn the GPS until you get your ticket is setting you back. My examiner said and I quote, "You can use anything in the plane". I used my Lowrance 2000 to the fullest. I also used my VOR and ADF. If it is in the plane learn it and use it. The thing about a VOR is once you really understand it, it is one of the easiest pieces of equipment to use. So once you can show that you really understand it why can't you learn other equipment as well. I will say it is far harder to learn all the features of a GPS than to learn how to use a VOR and OBS. How safe are you going to be fumbling around the GPS screens while you are alone. Much better to learn them while you have a CFI in the plane. If he is a Great CFI he will know how to use every page on the GPS and teach them to you. I fly with pilots that have a GPS and only use the magenta line page. After the flight they are amazed at all the things that little GPS can do, never to go back to just the magenta page.

Dan

 

[mjburian]

Does he not allow you to use the ADF also. Does he cover up the DG and say I want you to use only the Compass. After you get your ticket you can use the DG. All he is doing is making you learn the GPS after you get your ticket. There is nothing wrong with learning the VOR with out using the GPS, but to say you cannot learn the GPS until you get your ticket is setting you back. My examiner said and I quote, "You can use anything in the plane". I used my Lowrance 2000 to the fullest. I also used my VOR and ADF. If it is in the plane learn it and use it. The thing about a VOR is once you really understand it, it is one of the easiest pieces of equipment to use. So once you can show that you really understand it why can't you learn other equipment as well. I will say it is far harder to learn all the features of a GPS than to learn how to use a VOR and OBS. How safe are you going to be fumbling around the GPS screens while you are alone. Much better to learn them while you have a CFI in the plane. If he is a Great CFI he will know how to use every page on the GPS and teach them to you. I fly with pilots that have a GPS and only use the magenta line page. After the flight they are amazed at all the things that little GPS can do, never to go back to just the magenta page.

Dan

I'm sorry... maybe I wasn't clear in my original statement. The thought is that I will learn the GPS with him in the plane, just not until after the checkride. I won't be fumbling with the GPS out on my own.

 

[stingray]

I'm sorry... maybe I wasn't clear in my original statement. The thought is that I will learn the GPS with him in the plane, just not until after the checkride. I won't be fumbling with the GPS out on my own.

I forgot the CFI was your dad. Makes more sense to a point. All he is saying is your training will not stop at your check ride. You have to pass my (CFI) checkride then your good to go. I do the same thing with my son, after he solo's he then gets to do some dual time with me until I am comfortable with his progress. It's a dad thing.

Dan

 

[mjburian]

I forgot the CFI was your dad. Makes more sense to a point. All he is saying is your training will not stop at your check ride. You have to pass my (CFI) checkride then your good to go. I do the same thing with my son, after he solo's he then gets to do some dual time with me until I am comfortable with his progress. It's a dad thing.

Dan

That's the impression I've gotten from him. He warned me when I started training that it was going to be tougher for me to get my ticket than most anyone else in the world... because he wants me to more prepared than I need to be.

When it was time for me to solo, it sounds like he couldn't sleep the night before... but realized he finally had to "let go" and let me up on my own. Afterwards, he told me I was ready to solo 2 or 3 lessons earlier... but he had a hard time sending his son up alone (even though he has sent hundreds of students up in the past... it was different when it was his son).

I have no dreams of being a pilot as a career... but I also don't intend to get my ticket and stop learning, either. So, the plan as it is now is for me to be able to handle most anything with the standard panel... and then pick up more as I progress.

 

[ScottM]

I'm not saying it shouldn't be taught. But, there's an unfortunate pattern of pilots barely being proficient on basic navigation concepts. Too much emphasis is placed on GPS and more so for an instrument student.

Well you got me confused. hsi dad say he should not learn it until after his PPL. I say that it should be part of his training and then you state that you do nto agree with me. Sure sounds like you are saying it should not be taught

That being said... if it's in the airplane, know how to use it. Be proficient at it. Just make it a tool but a tool of last resort during training and then when you do learn it, don't become dependent on it. That gets only worse for instrument-rated pilots. Dependency on GPS and autopilot has killed more than a few that doesn't seem to be ending soon. So, it pays to know the needles without GPS.

When I learned to fly twenty years ago, GPS development was still classified outside of the rumors. If a dork like me can learn to get around without it, so can anyone else.

As for Martin and Co., paying careful attention to a chart and good situational awareness... well, doesn't require a GPS.

All of this is what I was saying. So you actually AGREE with me. Face it I am right. now if you could only figure that out over in SPIN and about the treadmill.

 

[ScottM]

That said, my answer is tempered somewhat by the fact that this is a handheld. My original presumption was that it was in the panel, in which case I would have added that you should know all the equipment on the plane prior to the checkride, because it's all fair game to the examiner.

Agree with you. I thought it was a panel mount as well and my answers are geared towards that assumption.

 

[KennyFlys]

Well you got me confused. his dad say he should not learn it until after his PPL. I say that it should be part of his training and then you state that you do not agree with me. Sure sounds like you are saying it should not be taught

All of this is what I was saying. So you actually AGREE with me. Face it I am right. now if you could only figure that out over in SPIN and about the treadmill.

No... I'm saying it should not be taught until toward the end. Learn all the basics then go from there.

Let's put it this way... The only birds we have with a GPS are the Duchess' twins. On all the Skyhawks, Cutlass' and Warriors, it's the basics on needles at most. So, worry about the basics and then the last few flights before the ride, learn more about the GPS and its basic use such as nearest airport. That alone is enough to fulfill the requirement to know how to use what's on board for his level of training and certificate.

There's no need to learn more than that as a primary student. He or she has plenty to be concerned with on that PPL checkride. Once he starts instrument training, there will be much more to learn. But, even then I'd be pushing basic needles and leaving the GPS until latter stages.

 

[stingray]

No... I'm saying it should not be taught until toward the end. Learn all the basics then go from there.

Does not get more basic than a GPS. Point and click so to speak.

I think you are getting confused by "Letting them fly the magenta line" over "Teaching them how to use a GPS correctly".

Dan

 

[KennyFlys]

Does not get more basic than a GPS. Point and click so to speak.

I think you are getting confused by "Letting them fly the magenta line" over "Teaching them how to use a GPS correctly".

Dan

Close. But, I'd rather my student not be concerned with the "magenta line" until they've gotten well into instrument training. It's VFR flying. Pilotage, dead reckoning then VOR tracking come first. Know the GPS for its basic function IF it's installed and that doesn't require more than nearest and use for situational awareness.

 

[ScottM]

No... I'm saying it should not be taught until toward the end. Learn all the basics then go from there.

I think you are having some reading comprehension issues here. You and I are agreeing. We both think it should be part of the PPL course. You, for some unknown reason, are arguing about the order of teaching it in the PPL course. I have not even mentioned the order at all. All I have said is that it should be taught there as well as all the other methods of navigation. I think you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.

 

[stingray]

Close. But, I'd rather my student not be concerned with the "magenta line" until they've gotten well into instrument training. It's VFR flying. Pilotage, dead reckoning then VOR tracking come first. Know the GPS for its basic function IF it's installed and that doesn't require more than nearest and use for situational awareness.

Here's the scenario, your student was on his/her, first solo cross country and got disorientated. They did not want to give up but wanted to make it to the destination. As good Little students they tunned in the VOR to the station they thought was correct. (Even if they got it right they were 60 miles from it). So they just flew around in circles till they ran out of fuel. On the other hand your fellow CFI taught his/her student how to use all the instruments in the plane. This student got disorientated, so they turned on the GPS and tuned in the destination airport and read the DTK and distance to the airport. All without using any magenta line. This student arrived safe and sound using ALL available to him/her as required by the FAA. A CFI has such a small amount of time with a student that I can not understand why one would not use all of it to teach the instrument that will safe his bacon the fastest the easiest and the safest.

You are not a better pilot because you know how to use a VOR. If one explains how a VOR OBS works correctly in the class room it is very easy to use. Trouble is most do not know how to explain it (They know it) they just have a hard time getting the point across. If you are so worried that your pilots need to learn the VOR/OBS before the GPS then set up MFS and have them practice it there. Once you know it, you apply it. On a side note everyone says how you are not a real pilot until you can land a tailwheel. I have found it just the opposite, You have much more choices in a tailwheel. You botch a three point and you just convert it to a wheel landing. I can't tell you how many "Real Pilots" I have flown with that did not know anything past the first page on a GPS. Of course the first words out of their mouth after I tuned in the VOR was "Do I fly to or away from the needle". I am sure though to their defense that their CFI said don't worry about the VOR you can learn that later, for now we will just use the ADF it will bring us back to the airport every time.

Dan

 

[KennyFlys]

I think you are having some reading comprehension issues here. You and I are agreeing. We both think it should be part of the PPL course. You, for some unknown reason, are arguing about the order of teaching it in the PPL course. I have not even mentioned the order at all. All I have said is that it should be taught there as well as all the other methods of navigation. I think you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.

Dang, I've been found out!

Actually, I probably just misread what you wrote and/or misinterpreted your intent. My apologies.

 

[ScottM]

Dang, I've been found out!

I KNEW IT!

Actually, I probably just misread what you wrote and/or misinterpreted your intent. My apologies.

no prob!

 

[KennyFlys]

Here's the scenario, your student was on his/her, first solo cross country and got disorientated. They did not want to give up but wanted to make it to the destination. As good Little students they tunned in the VOR to the station they thought was correct. (Even if they got it right they were 60 miles from it). So they just flew around in circles till they ran out of fuel. On the other hand your fellow CFI taught his/her student how to use all the instruments in the plane. This student got disorientated, so they turned on the GPS and tuned in the destination airport and read the DTK and distance to the airport. All without using any magenta line. This student arrived safe and sound using ALL available to him/her as required by the FAA. A CFI has such a small amount of time with a student that I can not understand why one would not use all of it to teach the instrument that will safe his bacon the fastest the easiest and the safest.

You are not a better pilot because you know how to use a VOR. If one explains how a VOR OBS works correctly in the class room it is very easy to use. Trouble is most do not know how to explain it (They know it) they just have a hard time getting the point across. If you are so worried that your pilots need to learn the VOR/OBS before the GPS then set up MFS and have them practice it there. Once you know it, you apply it. On a side note everyone says how you are not a real pilot until you can land a tailwheel. I have found it just the opposite, You have much more choices in a tailwheel. You botch a three point and you just convert it to a wheel landing. I can't tell you how many "Real Pilots" I have flown with that did not know anything past the first page on a GPS. Of course the first words out of their mouth after I tuned in the VOR was "Do I fly to or away from the needle". I am sure though to their defense that their CFI said don't worry about the VOR you can learn that later, for now we will just use the ADF it will bring us back to the airport every time.

Dan

I agree and disagree. As a CFI, your butt is on the line if your student does not know how to navigate by very basic means. The DPE or inspector is examining a VFR pilot and expecting the skills required by the PTS.

The Private Pilot PTS is very specific in Area of Operation IV. Task A is Pilotage and Dead Reckoning. Task B is Navigation Systems and Radar Services. The former is or should be clearly understood.

The latter does not make even the slightest reference to GPS. If all the terms are examined carefully, they apply to use of VORs and very specifically indicates "airborne electronic navigation" which can in no way be confused with "GPSS" or "GNSS." It is the CFI's absolute responsibility their student knows how to use that system without fail before they turn them loose on a solo flight, particularly cross-country flight.

Once I'm absolutely assured my student knows how to set up and properly use a single (there will be performance with a single receiver) or dual VORs, then we'll dig into basic functions of a GPS. Even then, the only reason I'd dig into the GPS is IF it is installed on the aircraft used for the cross country or for the checkride. First, let's worry about what MUST be known for the certificate/rating sought. Too much gets forgotten and lost along the way as it is.

Sorry, I'm not budging on this one. I am dumbfounded by the statement, "You are not a better pilot because you know how to use a VOR." Actually, you're a better pilot of you know how to use one properly, correctly and efficiently. This goes far beyond the requirements of the PTS not to mention it is not an optional Task. Think about how unprepared they would be otherwise, let alone lack of preparedness for starting into an instrument rating.

You make reference to being lost. I'd refer you to Task D in the same area. Item 4 is, "Identifies prominent landmarks." This clearly makes Lost Procedures here a function of a VFR pilot and a GPS cannot be used. Can the certificated pilot use it? Sure. You might argue Item 5 allows it by use of the word, "navigation systems." But, I don't think a good examiner is going to let one slide on the "Nearest" function; not when there are more basic means which first must to be known. It would be wrong for me to teach as easy of means as well.

BTW, I did spin training in a Super Decathlon. But, I didn't land the plane on any of the three flights. Uh oh!

 

[Everskyward]

I am dumbfounded by the statement, "You are not a better pilot because you know how to use a VOR." Actually, you're a better pilot of you know how to use one properly, correctly and efficiently.

I could substitute the words "GPS" for "VOR" and still have it be true.

 

[KennyFlys]

I could substitute the words "GPS" for "VOR" and still have it be true.

Quite true. Tis why one must master one before the other, particularly when it must be answerable during the applicable check ride.

I already spoke to the consequences of a GPS dependent pilot not being competent on basic needles; more than just those on the VOR Indicator.

 

[Everskyward]

I already spoke to the consequences of a GPS dependent pilot not being competent on basic needles; more than just those on the VOR Indicator.

But what is the difference between being "GPS dependent" as opposed to "VOR dependent" or "ADF dependent" or "DME dependent"? In the end you should be able to survive without all these things, but they are just navigation aids which you should know how to use properly if they are installed in your airplane.

 

[KennyFlys]

But what is the difference between being "GPS dependent" as opposed to "VOR dependent" or "ADF dependent" or "DME dependent"? In the end you should be able to survive without all these things, but they are just navigation aids which you should know how to use properly if they are installed in your airplane.

We agree. The pilot should know how to use equipment in an aircraft or be capable of disabling it, i.e., turn it off. When I returned to flying, the plane was equipped with a KAP-140 autopilot. It would be some time before I would use it. But, a good preflight for avionics would include knowing it worked properly and more so if it was allowing manual control. It further included the ability to disable the autopilot and uncouple it. The GPS could simply be turned off but then it also had no controlling capability. A current database was verified as part of preflight.

Remove concerns of the above equipment and things change. First, a private pilot certificate is a VFR pilot. Second, GPS is not required.

When a certificated pilot learns and begins use of GPS for all navigation, this isn't a bad thing. But, the problem begins when they become dependent upon GPS.

When some pilots become instrument rated, particularly in a high performance and/or complex aircraft equipped with GPS and autopilot, they become dependent upon GPS for ALL navigation. There's nothing inherently wrong with that of itself. But, as time goes on they lose the ability to perform basic navigation use of VORs. Worse, they couple all GPS navigation to the autopilot. Again, there's nothing wrong with that as long as they remain proficient in navigating without use of the GPS.

My suspicion is many accidents take place from continuing coupled flight into an approach even for ILS or other approaches which should only be monitored on GPS. Suddenly, you have a pilot in heavy IMC attempting to fly needles down to minimums. They are not proficient on needles and end up losing control of the aircraft.

So, my belief is if the instructor sets in motion a strong belief in proficiency at the most basic level and continues it through advanced training, hopefully those values will stay with the pilot for all their future years in the sky.

 

[stingray]

We agree. Remove concerns of the above equipment and things change. First, a private pilot certificate is a VFR pilot. Second, GPS is not required.

When a certificated pilot learns and begins use of GPS for all navigation, this isn't a bad thing. But, the problem begins when they become dependent upon GPS.

For a VFR pilot a VOR is not required either.

Look at it like this, If the pilot is going to become Dependant on the GPS (Which I don't think happens to a good pilot) would you not agree that knowing the GPS to its fullest is a good thing. For example; go the nearest page find a VOR and put the freq in the radio now look up the radial that you intersect and plug that in to the OBS. Have student see how the needle centers as he/she crosses the radial. Cross checking the GPS. Was the student dependent on the GPS? Did they learn something about the GPS? Did they learn something about the VOR? If you do not teach the GPS and show how it can be used the student will become dependent on the magenta line.

Ken I look at it more like this, When you are first learning and flying solo there are lots of things going on. Do you want to make it as easy as possible or as hard. How does that go? Fly the plane, navigate, communicate. Make the student comfortable flying, (knowing exactly where you are makes thing very comfortable). Now navigate using the VOR and DR. Then communicate.

You do not need a plane to KNOW how to use a VOR/OBS.

I do not see the difference between flying off a GPS and a VOR, on both you fly toward the needle. Plug in 4 VOR's in the GPS and and those same in the VOR radio you will fly them exactly the same.

Dan

 

[poadeleted20]

For a VFR pilot a VOR is not required either.

Yeah, it is. The basic Private Pilot requirements include use of electronic navigation systems. That means the use of either VOR, ADF, or GPS on the flight portion of your PPL practical test, and for most folks, that's VOR. Of course, you have to be able to navigate without it, but you must be able to use it, too.

 

[KennyFlys]

For a VFR pilot a VOR is not required either.

Ditto to Ron.

Private Pilot PTS, Page 1-24

B. TASK: NAVIGATION SYSTEMS AND RADAR SERVICES​

(ASEL and ASES)

REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-23/FAA-H-8083-25; Navigation
Equipment Operation Manuals, AIM.​

Objective.​

​

​

To determine that the applicant:​

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to navigation systems
   and radar services.​
2. Demonstrates the ability to use an airborne electronic navigation
   system.​
3. Locates the airplane's position using the navigation system.​
4. Intercepts and tracks a given course, radial or bearing, as
   appropriate.​
5. Recognizes and describes the indication of station passage, if
   appropriate.​
6. Recognizes signal loss and takes appropriate action.​
7. Uses proper communication procedures when utilizing radar
   services.​
8. Maintains the appropriate​

Infer what you will. But, be prepared to answer the DPE or Inspector accordingly. Also, it's fair game during your Flight Review.

 

[stingray]

Yeah, it is. The basic Private Pilot requirements include use of electronic navigation systems. That means the use of either VOR, ADF, or GPS on the flight portion of your PPL practical test, and for most folks, that's VOR. Of course, you have to be able to navigate without it, but you must be able to use it, too.

That is to take the test, but after you have your PL a VFR pilot does not need a VOR, GPS, or an ADF in the plane. So if the student wants to use the GPS rather than the VOR why make him/her wait until late or after they have their PL. Why not teach them how to totally use the GPS and instruct them on the use of the VOR. You will need a basic understanding of the VOR to pass the written. I am not saying to not teach the VOR I am saying the student is going to use the GPS anyway why not make sure they know it inside and out.

Dan

 

[KennyFlys]

That is to take the test, but after you have your PL a VFR pilot does not need a VOR, GPS, or an ADF in the plane. So if the student wants to use the GPS rather than the VOR why make him/her wait until late or after they have their PL. Why not teach them how to totally use the GPS and instruct them on the use of the VOR. You will need a basic understanding of the VOR to pass the written. I am not saying to not teach the VOR I am saying the student is going to use the GPS anyway why not make sure they know it inside and out.

Dan

So, just take the most basic function and leave it behind? Oook.

 

[stingray]

So, just take the most basic function and leave it behind? Oook.

You cannot make someone use something they don't want to. All I'm saying is if the student wants to use the GPS make sure that they know how to use it to the fullest. You said yourself, everyone gets dependent on the GPS. That should tell you that is what they are going to use. Why not teach it to them correctly, so they do not just follow the magenta line. As I said before, show them how easy it is to use it with the VOR radio. I never said to leave anything behind. Teach everything in the plane not just what you think is important.

Dan

 

[KennyFlys]

Teach everything in the plane not just what you think is important.

No, you first teach what is required. After that, you teach what is in the airplane as if it's installed, it's fair game during the ride.

The PTS rules. And, as I said earlier... whatever is in that PTS is fair game during a Flight Review. In fact, there isn't much in Part 91 that isn't fair game. If the CFI doing your FR isn't touching on those aspects of flight planning, navigation and cockpit resource management among many other things, they are doing you a disservice.

 

[mjburian]

First of all, I apologize for starting the argument (again, apparently) over whether or not a student pilot should learn GPS before taking the PPL checkride.

Secondly, I know that my instructor (as my father) has my well-being in mind first and foremost. You guys can continue to argue for or against, but (no offense) I only have confidence in one person as far as my flight training goes... and that is the person I chose to be my instructor. So, regardless of the opinions voiced here the only one that matters (to me) is the one I hear in the cockpit during my instruction.

Finally, I completed my first solo xc flight less than 12 hours ago... and, although the flight went very well (there's a lot more time to think, plan and look for checkpoints without an instructor talking to you every few minutes)... the *one* thing I wish I didn't have in the plane was the GPS. As I said earlier, it's a handheld that is suction-cupped to the windscreen. During my departure climb out on the outbound leg... guess which instrument in the plane "broke loose" and landed on my lap?