Strategies for avoiding NIGHT VRF into IMC

JHW said:
My point is obviously that an instrument airplane does not mean you can fly any plane through any cloud. Having an instrument rating does not have much to do with the basic problem of staying vmc in the dark when conditions are such that it is the prudent thing to do.

Personally I dont think pilots without an instrument rating should be allowed to fly at night at all.
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It all depends on where the hell you live. If you don't want to fly at night without an IR I have no problems with that but please don't dictate what others should be allowed to do.
 
Sigh.

To the O.P, whom everyone has forgotten: When you are in a warm front, you're going to find this. Until you have an IR or better weather, you did corerctly.
 
comanchepilot said:
Now, over some parts of the west, even above the rocks, you have no freaking idea what your attitude is and there is not a cloud for 1000 nm. Its so dark and there are no towns and so few cars you could swear from those cars that they are stars and you are upside down.
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I really can't disagree with this at all, and there are plenty of parts of the east where (rocks notwithstanding) there is naught but hostile terrain and few lights. I myself would hesitate to fly such areas at night VFR, since one would loose any horizon and it might as well be an instrument flight. And if one if flying by instruments, one can't be looking out the window for other aircraft.
 
Regarding the question of ice in clouds at night: yes, this is a concern. However, CFIT is a bigger concern. So, for night flight, I'd advocate flying IFR (or at least ar IFR altitudes) as first priority, and then avoiding clouds.

This isn't to say let's fly into potential icing, but the whole question came up because of VFR into IMC. So we're making the assumption that we've hit a cloud anyway. Ice will be there if ice will be there, that we don't know for certain. We do know for certain where terrain is (it takes a while to produce more), so we are best off avoiding said terrain.
 
steingar said:
I really can't disagree with this at all, and there are plenty of parts of the east where (rocks notwithstanding) there is naught but hostile terrain and few lights. I myself would hesitate to fly such areas at night VFR, since one would loose any horizon and it might as well be an instrument flight. And if one if flying by instruments, one can't be looking out the window for other aircraft.
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Although that's true, IFR doesn't really help you with the see and avoid issues if you're in VMC. ATC will separate you from other IFR traffic, but to keep away from the VFR folks also flying instruments in those conditions, you still have to include "out the window" in your scan.

Fortunately, in those areas where there are few lights on the ground, there's also very little traffic to see and avoid. There are exceptions, of course (thinking over Lake Erie for example), and never any guarantees wherever you are.
 
Ben, whaddya mean if you are flying IFR you can't be looking outside? I fly IFR alot in the LA basin - mostly when I go to San Diego since even though Class B clearances are dispensed like candy on Halloween. its just easier. But I'm ALWAYs looking outside.

If you are flying VFR conditions [on top, or just CLR skies] and flying under IFR its just like a VFR flight only at a different altitude. . . you are scanning for traffic like a m-fker. And if you don't have an AP and can't keep the airplane on course and on altitude and still be looking outside you shouldn't be flying on an IFR flight plan much less flying period . . .
 
The instrument pilot is legally required to look for traffic when in VMC.
 
comanchepilot said:
It takes only about 20 real hours to get an instrument rating . . . flying you might do anyway - and $800 for an instructor - and just go do it. I think anyone with more than 250 hours should be flying to commercial standards anyway - and once you cross 1000 you should be able to pass the ATP practical check ride - at least the flying part of it. Its just flying.
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Only if you have access to an IFR certified aircraft. If not, the level of input in time and money increases astronomically.
 
I really didn't do a whole lot of night flying before I had instrument experience, but I'd highly recommend an instrument rating for anyone considering flying on anything but the brightest nights. I am primarily on instruments anytime I'm flying at night (I fly with NVG's nowadays, but even now I still mostly reference instruments whether I'm on them or not). I can't count how many times I've gotten spacial D/vertigo going through the clouds at night. There have been night join ups in VMC where I honestly felt like I was upside down plummeting into the earth had it not been for my attitude indicator/HUD, due to the black hole effect flying away from cultural lighting with lower vis. I don't think that instrument airways nav (ie using navaids and such) is a big deal for night, but basic instruments as in having a good scan of the 6 pack or whatever you are equipped with is vital to flying at night in a lot of areas.
 
35 AoA said:
I really didn't do a whole lot of night flying before I had instrument experience, but I'd highly recommend an instrument rating for anyone considering flying on anything but the brightest nights. I am primarily on instruments anytime I'm flying at night (I fly with NVG's nowadays, but even now I still mostly reference instruments whether I'm on them or not). I can't count how many times I've gotten spacial D/vertigo going through the clouds at night. There have been night join ups in VMC where I honestly felt like I was upside down plummeting into the earth had it not been for my attitude indicator/HUD, due to the black hole effect flying away from cultural lighting with lower vis. I don't think that instrument airways nav (ie using navaids and such) is a big deal for night, but basic instruments as in having a good scan of the 6 pack or whatever you are equipped with is vital to flying at night in a lot of areas.
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Try that over the ocean . . . you know what thats like. Then going back and landing in the black hole with a meatball and some lights. I'm still not sure I ever landed or just smacked a hook and the boat dragged me along. . .
 
comanchepilot said:
Try that over the ocean . . . you know what thats like. Then going back and landing in the black hole with a meatball and some lights. I'm still not sure I ever landed or just smacked a hook and the boat dragged me along. . .
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I think my last cognitive function occurs around a mile and a half when I check my fuel state and think about my ball call. Then I just black out until I'm in the wires.....either way I am awakened by the voice of one of the various God's either saying "lights on deck" or "bolter bolter bolter!"
 
FWIW, in many, many hours of night flying, I've never gone IMC inadvertently...
 
I had a LOT of night hours prior to my IR, but never once kidded myself that I couldn't find myself accidentally inside a cloud. Luckily I never did. My only inadvertent cloud encounter was in broad daylight over north-central Texas. And boy was that dumb.

Mitigation methods:

- CAVU with moon. Best possible method. Avoid overcast. Just wait. No point in getting there tonight with the added risk of a super dark rural night with no natural lighting at all.

- Unforecast stuff? Land. Now. And freakin' turn AROUND and go back where it was better. This the the number one thing I don't like in your story... Keep going lower with clouds thousands of feet below where you expected them to be? No frakkin' way would I have done that VFR. If weather is taking me by surprise in the dark, I'm done... 180 degree course reversal -- maybe with a descent to avoid hitting the stupid things twice on the way back -- and I'd find out how comfy the pilot's lounge couch was at Podunk International until daylight.

- Lights down inside the cockpit. You need to see what's going on out there.

- Fly over lit landmarks. Even in the darkest night, Interstate highways have lights all along them, even if its only the truck traffic. Direct routes off across rural countryside are dumb VFR at night.

- Lights on outside. Everything lit up like a Christmas tree. Sometimes you get hints in the landing lights or strobes, or even a weird glow back at you from the Nav lights in haze. Pay attention and leave 'em all on. See anything weird, look hard and figure out what it is.

- Always file a VFR flight plan and always use Flight Following. Planning at IFR altitudes and above and talking to someone at all times.

- Don't do it tired. Just don't. Fatigue will make you 50 IQ points stupider.

- Really read the weather charts. (Thanks Doc for pointing this one out. Intake it for granted, but a long night flight, I study the weather with borderline obsession.

- Know your outs. I've mentioned if you try really hard, you can plan a route that minimizes exposure to time when you can't glide to an airport. Fly high and use the O2. Give yourself time to handle an emergency and plenty of altitude to screw up in.

- Read every METAR and TAF along the entire route as well as the synopses written by a pro prognosticator. Never just departure and destination weather. Every one.

Anyway... that's a nice list, and it worked for me for years and years, but Ted's right... It still may not work out. Land. Wait. Morning is only a few hours away.

I've been kept out of the sky at night more often by convective activity --.that started long before nightfall -- than stratus layers... but that's because I just refused to fly underneath thick ones at night.
 
SkyHog said:
FWIW, in many, many hours of night flying, I've never gone IMC inadvertently...
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How many? Can we have a number?

I think we've established pretty well that it can happen, even on a perfectly clear night. At least it's happened to both Mari and me on separate occasions.
 
SkyHog said:
FWIW, in many, many hours of night flying, I've never gone IMC inadvertently...
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Out west it's easy to just pick up and fly at night and not hit IMC, back east it's a bit trickier. As long as you can see the moon youl'll be ok.
 
SkyHog said:
FWIW, in many, many hours of night flying, I've never gone IMC inadvertently...
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back in college flying cancelled checks in the midwest I'd run through clouds more nights than not, and in the winter pick up at least a trace of ice most of those encounters
 
JHW said:
back in college flying cancelled checks in the midwest I'd run through clouds more nights than not, and in the winter pick up at least a trace of ice most of those encounters
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Were you still in Peoria then flying for Byerly?
 
Jaybird180 said:
As I'm thinking about this, knowing the temp/dp spread is only relevant if one knows the actual lapse rate. ScottD showed me how the FAA knowledge test lapse rate is rarely practical. However there is a tool that is well suited to providing this information.....skew-t log p diagrams.

Unfortunately, the resolution may not provide enough data to cover the route of flight. At this point in my learning about weather I use it as an area forecast tool.

That's all I got. I will be monitoring this thread for better ideas, as I enjoy night flights and do not have an Instrument ticket yet.

Side note: an instrument ticket is not necessarily the saving grace for this scenario. I was speaking with a friend who told me about getting into VFR-IMC during his commercial solo night XC work. He was on an IFR flight plan and could go to instruments, but it was still unexpected. My review of NTSB reports have shown me that IR-rated pilots are also getting into VFR-IMC incidents.
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It is true that IR pilots who fly VFR into IMC don't seem to fare much better than non-IR pilots. The difference is that IR pilots on an IFR clearance flying into IMC have a near 100% success rate, or least as well as VFR pilots in CAVU. I rarely fly VFR even in CAVU because I have found that I am better organized and "tuned" up when flying IFR so encountering IMC is a non-event.

Sent from my SPH-M930 using Tapatalk 2
 
DrMack said:
It is true that IR pilots who fly VFR into IMC don't seem to fare much better than non-IR pilots. The difference is that IR pilots on an IFR clearance flying into IMC have a near 100% success rate, or least as well as VFR pilots in CAVU. I rarely fly VFR even in CAVU because I have found that I am better organized and "tuned" up when flying IFR so encountering IMC is a non-event.

Sent from my SPH-M930 using Tapatalk 2
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Always good to have the MSA/MCA/MEA for where you are flying in your hip pocket. Have also flown places where people have and will continue to fly themselves into terrain on moonless VMC nights in the traffic pattern or at least airfield environment. First time I ever landed at Palm Springs was at night, and I was quite shocked to see the terrain for the first time when we preflighted our aircraft the next morning in the daylight.
 
35 AoA said:
Always good to have the MSA/MCA/MEA for where you are flying in your hip pocket. Have also flown places where people have and will continue to fly themselves into terrain on moonless VMC nights in the traffic pattern or at least airfield environment. First time I ever landed at Palm Springs was at night, and I was quite shocked to see the terrain for the first time when we preflighted our aircraft the next morning in the daylight.
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Funny how the granite always wins...
 
Ted DuPuis said:
How many? Can we have a number?

I think we've established pretty well that it can happen, even on a perfectly clear night. At least it's happened to both Mari and me on separate occasions.
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I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying it never happened to me. In NM, however, on all but the few days where there is absolutely no moon, you can see clouds pretty well even off a sliver of moonlight. On those nights with no moon, you can find the clouds easily enough by looking for disappearing lights behind them. Since you can see hundreds of miles at night, its pretty easy to keep track of the lights of the distant cities, and seeing them disappear is a pretty clear sign of 2 things: 1. There's a mountain between you and the city, or 2. There's clouds ahead, and you're going to penetrate them. Either way, you don't need to be flying into the void.

I've not yet done night flight out east, so I don't know what night vis is like out here. Sounds different.
 
I don't think I've ever flown into IMC at night while VFR. I most certainly have flown into IMC at night while operating under IFR when I was not expecting it to happen.

If it's an option I do pretty much every cross country under IFR. When it's not an option I'm a lot more careful.

There's a pretty big difference between the weather I'm comfortable flying a Bonanza in at night versus the weather I'm comfortable flying the Flybaby at night. Mostly because I want to make it to my 30s...

If operating under IFR is not on the table then you really shouldn't be flying at night unless the weather is absolutely perfect without a cloud around you or even possible for one to form..for at least 200 miles or so in every direction. Just my opinion :)
 
Henning said:
You can fly around scattered layers if you have a good moon.
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Yeah the level of illumination both from the moon as well as ambient/cultural lighting makes a huge difference at night. On a moonless night out in the middle of nowhere out west, or overwater, it can be pretty challenging to see what you are approaching. With decent mood lighting from civilization, it normally isn't too hard to see clouds, or at least tell from above that a place is overcast due to the change in patterns of lights being obscured by clouds.
 
35 AoA said:
Yeah the level of illumination both from the moon as well as ambient/cultural lighting makes a huge difference at night. On a moonless night out in the middle of nowhere out west, or overwater, it can be pretty challenging to see what you are approaching.
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Oh definitely. I was flying IFR over New Mexico east of Albuquerque two months ago on a moonless night. Absolutely pitch black outside so I was on instruments for 30 minutes until I approached ABQ. Would I have noticed if I entered IMC? Probably not unless unless the airplane lights were reflected back to me.
 
So, say one of you were flying at night VFR, inadvertently entered IMC, and another of you were flying IFR, and say one or the other or both were climbing/decending towards each other, would ATC provide vectors for the IFR flight to avoid the VFR aircraft?
 
skidoo said:
So, say one of you were flying at night VFR, inadvertently entered IMC, and another of you were flying IFR, and say one or the other or both were climbing/decending towards each other, would ATC provide vectors for the IFR flight to avoid the VFR aircraft?
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ATC has every reason to believe the conditions are VMC. See and avoid.
 
skidoo said:
So, say one of you were flying at night VFR, inadvertently entered IMC, and another of you were flying IFR, and say one or the other or both were climbing/decending towards each other, would ATC provide vectors for the IFR flight to avoid the VFR aircraft?
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The IFR flight would only get vectors to get separated from other IFR traffic. You would most likely receive traffic advisories if there is a primary radar target from the VFR flight.
 
DrMack said:
The IFR flight would only get vectors to get separated from other IFR traffic. You would most likely receive traffic advisories if there is a primary radar target from the VFR flight.
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But my point is you are on an IFR flight in IMC. The VFR flight is inadvertently in IMC (i.e. very dark night and did not realize IMC). Does ATC now consider you in VMC and expect you to see the VFR aircraft? Or, will ATC have you change direction/altitude?

Maybe when ATC points out traffic, do you say you are in IMC and request vectors?
 
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skidoo said:
But my point is you are on an IFR flight in IMC. The VFR flight is inadvertently in IMC (i.e. very dark night and did not realize IMC). Does ATC now consider you in VMC and expect you to see the VFR aircraft? Or, will ATC have you change direction/altitude?

Maybe when ATC points out traffic, do you say you are in IMC and request vectors?
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You'll realize quickly when you fly into IMC, you'll be reaching for the strobe and beacon switches. As you're doing that you declare to ATC that you have inadvertently gone into IMC.
 
Henning said:
You'll realize quickly when you fly into IMC, you'll be reaching for the strobe and beacon switches. As you're doing that you declare to ATC that you have inadvertently gone into IMC.
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To be more clear, I referring to being legitimate IFR in IMC and ATC calls out VFR traffic ahead who is not talking to ATC. Will ATC automatically give you vectors, or do you need to tell ATC that you are actually in IMC and will need vectors to avoid, or is something else more appropriate?
 
Depends on the airspace. There are separation minima for controllers to follow inside a Bravo, for IFR vs. VFR.

Get away from the dense airspace, the requirement goes away.

IMC/VMC doesn't factor in, unless you tell the controller.

Separation minima can also go away if one or the other aircraft has confirmed they have the other in sight.
 
skidoo said:
To be more clear, I referring to being legitimate IFR in IMC and ATC calls out VFR traffic ahead who is not talking to ATC. Will ATC automatically give you vectors, or do you need to tell ATC that you are actually in IMC and will need vectors to avoid, or is something else more appropriate?
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He will call it, you reply "I am in IMC currently" and he will keep you away from them.
 
Unregistered said:
I flew a XC trip recently and the Wx was reported BRKN @ 12,000 OVC @ 17,000. It's an eastbound trip and I planned a VFR cruising altitude of 5,500 since I didn't have oxygen on board. I would have liked 7,500 because of winds, but haven't tested my night tolerance at that altitude.

At 5,300 I ran into my first cloud. And I kept running into clouds, so I decided to abandon attempts to get to my planned altitude. I couldn't see them AT ALL. After several instances of VFR into IMC even down to ~4,100, I learned to look for the propeller strobe effect to warn me that a cloud was approaching and maneuver to avoid. My default manuever was a decent since I had plenty altitude below me. ATC was watching me on radar Flight Following and told me that no one was around, mitigating the risk of a mid-air collision. I flew at 4,000-4,500 to maintain visual with ATC approval. No idea if I was still in compliance with VFR cloud clearance requirements, because I couldn't see them to know if they were 1 foot or 501 feet above me.

Can someone suggest strategies for avoiding VFR-IMC at night?
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I hope to gawd this is an isolated story. Dangerous for the OP and dangerous for IR pilots.
 
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