Step up altitude in ifr?

Theboys

Theboys

Line Up and Wait
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Theboys
Ive never been in a position where I wanted to file for a lower altitude for winds, but need more altitude on 2nd half of trip. I want to file 8000 for first hr plus then go to 16 or more. Can I just put the point I would like to climb in remarks section when I file or just ask for higher? Going over Rockies.
 
File the first altitude. Ask for higher when you're ready to inflate. No big deal.
 
Going towards the rockies, ATC will probably give you the higher altitude before you want it, or give you the lower and longer route.
 
Theboys said:
Ive never been in a position where I wanted to file for a lower altitude for winds, but need more altitude on 2nd half of trip. I want to file 8000 for first hr plus then go to 16 or more. Can I just put the point I would like to climb in remarks section when I file or just ask for higher? Going over Rockies.
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When I went low for winds, I knew I needed to climb at some point as 4000 would not clear the Appalachians on the NC/TN line. ATC will know that you need to climb, too, and should ask you about it at some point.

Down at 4000, my ground speed was about 115 knots, slowing into the 90s as I climbed over terrain and bottoming out at 68 knots as I dodged icy cloud tops at sunset at 10,000. Descending when clear got me back above 100. No turbulence at all, just really slow. My TAS the whole time was 145, lower while climbing, faster while descending. I filed my desired route and first leg altitude, the need for a climb will be obvious.

Coming home from Sun n Fun, I was around 6000 I think, and MEAs over upland SC and western NC are much higher. I was invited to climb, and chose 10,000 then later asked for 11,000 due to mountain wave knocking the bejesus out of us as we neared Asheville. Don't fight the wave, let it wiggle you up and down, just watch your throttle and speed.
 
I jumped up over moa's several times when they want to divert me around at lower altitude. That's never a big deal. Didn't figure this would be either. Didn't know how much info the strip gives them
 
If you want a different altitude while enroute for whatever reason, just ask center, everyone does it all the time.
 
I had a weekly route over the Appalachians. i would file direct and would get routed through BFE along airways. Finally I figured out that the altitude I filed took me through an entrance point on a STAR to Charlotte. I started filing too low to clear the mountains and requesting higher en route. that got me cleared direct routinely. sometimes the controller would clear me higher before I made the request. only once did a controller seem to take issue with it. agree with the others; just request higher when you want to. No problem including the intended altitude request in flight plan comments though.
 
I went Pueblo to Alamosa VFR yesterday. PUB os below 5000, ALS about 7500. But there are these big rocks in the way. While at 10.5,Denver Center informs me that IFR altitude is 14. No problem, informed them I'm climbing to 12.5 thru the pass. Actually made it to 13.5, got a great lift off the leeward side. West side? pretty much reduced power to 1500 rpm and just coasted down to the runway.
 
I'd file the higher altitude for the route you want, then ask ATC on climb out to stay at a lower altitude. Otherwise they're still going to give you a higher altitude; they're not going to clear you for a route with an altitude that's below an MEA for some segment of the flight.
 
Brad Z said:
I'd file the higher altitude for the route you want, then ask ATC on climb out to stay at a lower altitude. Otherwise they're still going to give you a higher altitude; they're not going to clear you for a route with an altitude that's below an MEA for some segment of the flight.
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Technically that is the incorrect procedure, and ATC will actually clear you as filed at an altitude that will get you into rocks, which is part of why it's important to do your homework. BTDT. In fact, I have this happen all the time. Usually you get the option of a reroute or a different altitude. Or they will propose one, and you can ask for the other if you want.

That said, I have also had times where I file for a particular altitude and then end up deciding (after filing) I want to be lower for whatever reason. On climb-out I ask ATC if I can maintain the lower altitude, and that's no problem, either. Unless I'm going to run into rocks in their airspace, then they don't let me.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Technically that is the incorrect procedure, and ATC will actually clear you as filed at an altitude that will get you into rocks, which is part of why it's important to do your homework. BTDT. In fact, I have this happen all the time. Usually you get the option of a reroute or a different altitude. Or they will propose one, and you can ask for the other if you want.
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Eh? The cleared altitude is the INITIAL altitude and as long as it's above the minimum IFR altitude and otherwise meets the ATC operational needs, that's what you get. I routinely file for 4000 and get it on a route that I will need to be at 6000 not too far down the road to clear terrain. ATC knows they will need to climb you. Of course, your homework is that you need to know the minimum altitude in case of lost comm (or just a simple cross check that ATC is behavior appropriately).
 
This is what the AIM says about it.

7. Block 7. Enter the requested en route altitude
or flight level.
NOTE−
Enter only the initial requested altitude in this block. When
more than one IFR altitude or flight level is desired along
the route of flight, it is best to make a subsequent request
direct to the controller

My experience as a controller says this is good advice.
 
Sometimes coming back from Europe we will file for FL400 because we can't get up to FL430 before the water and are stuck at FL400 until we get to Canada. Then we will step up to FL450 or FL 470 for the last 3-4 hours of the flight but it's always filed at FL400
 
NJP_MAN said:
Sometimes coming back from Europe we will file for FL400 because we can't get up to FL430 before the water and are stuck at FL400 until we get to Canada. Then we will step up to FL450 or FL 470 for the last 3-4 hours of the flight but it's always filed at FL400
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Yeah. Filing for and accepting an altitude you can't get to, and then springing it on ATC after you're in the air wouldn't be a good idea. You could end up getting stuck a lot lower for awhile if FL400 has another airplane in it.
 
flyingron said:
Eh? The cleared altitude is the INITIAL altitude and as long as it's above the minimum IFR altitude and otherwise meets the ATC operational needs, that's what you get. I routinely file for 4000 and get it on a route that I will need to be at 6000 not too far down the road to clear terrain. ATC knows they will need to climb you. Of course, your homework is that you need to know the minimum altitude in case of lost comm (or just a simple cross check that ATC is behavior appropriately).
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Yes, that's what I said (or at least what I intended to convey).

My point is that ATC will clear you for an initial altitude that may eventually not be an acceptable MEA on the route of flight. But you still have the initial altitude that's lower. Going out west is obvious, but you can even get it when going through some of the hills back east. I routinely would file for 6k heading west from New Hampshire, have to go to 8k over southern NYS for a bit, and then back to 6k once past some hills.
 
Ended up not being any big deal. I filed direct at 10000. After my first denver center contact they amended direct to closest vor, then the airport. Flew that until almost Greeley and just asked higher. She said I needed to eventually be at least 15000. Told her I was ready for 16000. After 20 seconds or so she came back and said I was cleared to 16000. Cleared mountains by several thousand feet but the waves were particularly bad today. Had headwind at about 56. Mountain downdraft wave was so strong I had to add full power to keep altitude and enough airspeed to keep from stalling. Not a big deal though. Think I'd add mother couple thousand if doing same circumstances again.
 
Theboys said:
Ended up not being any big deal. I filed direct at 10000. After my first denver center contact they amended direct to closest vor, then the airport. Flew that until almost Greeley and just asked higher. She said I needed to eventually be at least 15000. Told her I was ready for 16000. After 20 seconds or so she came back and said I was cleared to 16000. Cleared mountains by several thousand feet but the waves were particularly bad today. Had headwind at about 56. Mountain downdraft wave was so strong I had to add full power to keep altitude and enough airspeed to keep from stalling. Not a big deal though. Think I'd add mother couple thousand if doing same circumstances again.
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A rule of thumb is to clear peaks/ridges by at least 1/2 the elevation change from valley floor to peaks when the winds are higher than about 30 knots. Sometimes that won't get you out of the wave but it's something to help with planning.
 
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