Staying current by myself

[rookie1255]

6 approaches in the last 6 months to be current. The only way to do this alone is if I'm on an IFR flight plan, in IMC for all 6 approaches.

If I'm practicing approaches in VFR I need a safety pilot.
If I'm on an IFR plan but in VMC then I need to watch for traffic so I'm not really executing an approach.

Is there any way to stay current without constantly having to track down a safety pilot?

I've read/heard that doing the approaches in a redbird simulator will count for currency, but an instructor has to be present. Other literature says it's not instruction so an instructor does not need to be present; an instructor wouldn't be present if you were doing an approach in actual IMC. Internet brings up conflicting information and no definitive answer, here's an example http://aviation.stackexchange.com/q...y-in-a-flight-simulator-without-an-instructor

How does everyone else do this? Does everyone have a safety pilot buddy constantly available regularly to help maintain IFR currency?

 

[James331]

For a active IFR/IMC pilot doing 6 approaches every half year shouldn't be a issue, if you're inactive enough that you aren't even averaging one approach a month, it's probably a good idea to do a IPC ether way.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

6 approaches in the last 6 months to be current. The only way to do this alone is if I'm on an IFR flight plan, in IMC for all 6 approaches.

Depends on how much moral fiber you have...

 

[Brad Z]

IPCs every six months. It helps that I'm a CFII, and I'm friends with several CFIIs, so evaluate each other.

Technically you can get away with only doing three approaches with a CFII. I'd recommend shooting for something above the bare minimum.

 

[JustinD]

an instructor or someone else would have to essentially just verify that you did the approaches in the sim, even though its not dual given you'd basically need someone else to verify it was done. Doesn't even have to be an instructor just another instrument pilot. And i disagrees with the shouldn't be hard to stay current statement, as an active CFI, and flying my personal aircraft I hardly was ever able to stay current just by flying in the airplane even though in my personal plane it was IFR every time and instructing it was II students.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

i imagine it will be hard to stay current just flying regularly here in SoCal.

how much of the approach has to be in actual IMC for it to count? Anything after IAF? Anything after FAF?

 

[fiveoboy01]

If any part of the approach is flown in actual, it can be counted towards currency. I believe the caveat is that it must be started at the IAF, or you must be vectored onto the final approach course for it to count. But you can break out anywhere.

EDITED for a correction - you must be on the final approach segment when breaking out, so past the FAF.

If it's with a view limiting device and a safety pilot, then it needs to be flown to minimums to be count.

Just my understanding from some reading about a month ago, so I could be wrong. I'm sure someone will be along to correct me if I am

 

[jordane93]

If any part of the approach is flown in actual, it can be counted towards currency. I believe the caveat is that it must be started at the IAF, or you must be vectored onto the final approach course for it to count. But you can break out anywhere.

If it's with a view limiting device and a safety pilot, then it needs to be flown to minimums to be count.

Just my understanding from some reading about a month ago, so I could be wrong. I'm sure someone will be along to correct me if I am

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avi...afety/info/all_infos/media/2015/InFO15012.pdf

 

[Jim_R]

How does everyone else do this? Does everyone have a safety pilot buddy constantly available regularly to help maintain IFR currency?

I found a CFII with an Elite sim rig. Every 3-4 months, I schedule some time with him to fly a few approaches. If I'm planning a trip, we'll pick approaches at airports I plan to visit. During the sessions, we'll often find something to talk about that gives me an insight or piece of knowledge that I didn't have before and probably wouldn't have picked up just flying by myself or with another non-CFII pilot.

It also gives me an opportunity to debrief recent flights, if I came across a situation I wasn't sure I handled the best way.

He also throws in failures occasionally that are more "realistic" in the sim environment than in the plane. He's killed a mag on me before (reaching over and turning my ignition key in the plane would have been a bit of a giveaway)...vacuum failure affects show up gradually and take effort to recognize and compensate for, unlike the instant suction cup-on-the-instrument approach in the real plane, etc.

Sessions with him and sim are still cheaper per hour than flying the real plane, too; considering that resetting for another approach only takes a few button clicks instead of 10 min of flying around, it's a lot quicker and cheaper to run through 4 approaches with him than in my plane.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Technically you can get away with only doing three approaches with a CFII. I'd recommend shooting for something above the bare minimum.

....even if those are partial panel.....with everything failed and the engine on fire.

 

[MAKG1]

Is it that hard to find a safety pilot? I have dozens of people I can go to, and only one has ever refused a free flight. The safety pilot gets to look at the scenery. He does not need to be instrument rated or endorsed for your airplane (just an ASEL certificate and medical). I'm sure there has to be SOMEone around the local FBO, perhaps an instrument student?

Occasionally someone posts here, to find one. I flew safety pilot for rhvpilot a few times due to that, while he was working on his IR.

 

[midlifeflyer]

6 approaches in the last 6 months to be current. The only way to do this alone is if I'm on an IFR flight plan, in IMC for all 6 approaches.

If I'm practicing approaches in VFR I need a safety pilot.
If I'm on an IFR plan but in VMC then I need to watch for traffic so I'm not really executing an approach.

Is there any way to stay current without constantly having to track down a safety pilot?

I've read/heard that doing the approaches in a redbird simulator will count for currency, but an instructor has to be present. Other literature says it's not instruction so an instructor does not need to be present; an instructor wouldn't be present if you were doing an approach in actual IMC. Internet brings up conflicting information and no definitive answer, here's an example http://aviation.stackexchange.com/q...y-in-a-flight-simulator-without-an-instructor

How does everyone else do this? Does everyone have a safety pilot buddy constantly available regularly to help maintain IFR currency?

The existence of a lot of "opinions" by SOGTI doesn't mean there is no definitive answer. To be fair, the FAA itself contributed a lot to the confusion; caused most of it, in fact.

But there is a definitive answer. The 2010 Keller letter. You need an instructor when logging time and approaches in a sim.

Accordingly, the regulatory text of §61.51(g)(4) is clear that in order to log the time an instructor must be present to observe an individual using a flight training device or flight simulator to maintain instrument recency experience.
​

For more than a decade I maintained instrument currency with a friend. We went just about every month, doing a few approaches after work and then going out to dinner. Since we scheduled monthly, even if we missed one it was no big deal and were almost never rushed to "get" current or recapture currency. And it was great fun, both the flying and the steak and beer afterward.

Now, I get an IPC annually as part of my yearly club checkout flight and I'm working on finding a regular flying buddy or two to use the system that worked so well for me for so many years.

 

[midlifeflyer]

an instructor or someone else would have to essentially just verify that you did the approaches in the sim, even though its not dual given you'd basically need someone else to verify it was done. Doesn't even have to be an instructor just another instrument pilot. And i disagrees with the shouldn't be hard to stay current statement, as an active CFI, and flying my personal aircraft I hardly was ever able to stay current just by flying in the airplane even though in my personal plane it was IFR every time and instructing it was II students.

It has to be an instructor. See the Keller letter I linked to in another post.

I'm not sure why it was hard for you to stay current. Did I misunderstand that you were under IFR and shooting approaches with students in actual?

 

[fiveoboy01]

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avi...afety/info/all_infos/media/2015/InFO15012.pdf

Looks like what I said, mine was easier to understand

 

[coma24]

The approaches in the sim count for 2 months, not 6. There are also extra tasks that need to be performed in the sim (recovery from unusual attitudes in IMC approaching stall and another approaching Vne if memory serves, but you should double check as I never looked too closely into that one).

You absolutely need an instructor present. There was talk about removing the need for an instructor, but it never made it into the final rule. The opinion letter from AFS-800 that some of the flight sim companies are touting has since been rescinded.

If you fly them in the sim, you need to be in IMC all the way down to MDA/DH.

If you fly them in the airplane, you need to be in IMC at the FAF.

So, if you plan on using the airplane, I'd plan on going up on days where you have some decent IFR weather. The logistics of including a safety pilot may or may not work for you, but I find it to be a pain in the butt and would rather shoot them alone, in actual, on my schedule.

I stay proficient with a sim at home (non-loggable) and I stay legally current with my airplane in IMC.

 

[flyingron]

If I'm practicing approaches in VFR I need a safety pilot.
If I'm on an IFR plan but in VMC then I need to watch for traffic so I'm not really executing an approach.

You seem to be under the misconception that you can log instrument time in visual conditions just because you are on an IFR plan. That's NOT true. You must be in actual or simulated instrument conditions. Yes, it's true that you can have actual instrument conditions while in legal VMC (my favorite is a moonless and hazy night. Just no way you're staying right side up without flying instruments). I'm not sure why you think looking for traffic means you are not executing an instrument approach.

Is there any way to stay current without constantly having to track down a safety pilot?

Fly in actual instrument conditions.

I've read/heard that doing the approaches in a redbird simulator will count for currency, but an instructor has to be present.

I'd never trust anything Redbird says.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...014/Stewart - (2014) Legal Interpretation.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...10/keller-1 - (2010) legal interpretation.pdf

 

[jordane93]

The approaches in the sim count for 2 months, not 6. There are also extra tasks that need to be performed in the sim (recovery from unusual attitudes in IMC approaching stall and another approaching Vne if memory serves, but you should double check as I never looked too closely into that one).

Regulation?

 

[wilkersk]

Regulation?

61.57; although I think the poster is confusion an ATD with a simulator/FTD.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

You seem to be under the misconception that you can log instrument time in visual conditions just because you are on an IFR plan.

How did you get that....

6 approaches in the last 6 months to be current. The only way to do this alone is if I'm on an IFR flight plan, in IMC for all 6 approaches.

If I'm practicing approaches in VFR I need a safety pilot.
If I'm on an IFR plan but in VMC then I need to watch for traffic so I'm not really executing an approach.

From that? He said nothing about logging time.

 

[flyingron]

He was talking about maintaining his six approaches for CURRENCY. CURRENCY means nothing to the FAA if it isn't logged.

I interpretted the phrase "If I'm on an IFR plan but in VMC then I need to watch for traffic so I'm not really..." as him thinking that other than the fact he's looking for traffic this somehow would meet the requirement for instrument currency. It doesn't Being on an IFR plan means nothing to currency. Flying solely by reference to instruments in actual or simulated instrument conditions does.

 

[Topper]

For a active IFR/IMC pilot doing 6 approaches every half year shouldn't be a issue, if you're inactive enough that you aren't even averaging one approach a month, it's probably a good idea to do a IPC ether way.

I assumed that 6 in 6 months would not be a problem either. I logged around 40 hours in the last 6 mo. I had some Imc, but only one approach that wasn't visual. Lots of clear and a million days. Kind of a bummer after you work so hard to earn the rating.

I decided to knock 6 out before I was out of currency. I figured I might as well learn something in the process. I took a CFI and did a cross country with approaches along the way. Did a couple on the way back as well. Only ended up costing me a steak dinner, however I would have been happy to pay. We had a blast doing it and I preferred having a CFI with me to critique me. YMMV.

Jim

 

[midlifeflyer]

How did you get that....



From that? He said nothing about logging time.

You and Ron read the post completely differently. I saw both meanings.

If I'm on an IFR plan but in VMC then I need to watch for traffic so I'm not really executing an approach.

made me pause and wonder whether he thought the approach would count if he "really" executed in in VMC without a hood. But I figured it was probably just the way it was phrased.

 

[coma24]

61.57; although I think the poster is confusion an ATD with a simulator/FTD.

Redbird and elite are batd and aatd, so 61.57 c 3 says 2 months and lists the tasks, including recovery from unusual attitudes.

What am I confused about?

 

[wilkersk]

(2) Use of a flight simulator or flight training device for maintaining instrument experience. Within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight, that person performed and logged at least the following tasks and iterations in a flight simulator or flight training device, provided the flight simulator or flight training device represents the category of aircraft for the instrument rating privileges to be maintained and involves having performed the following--

(i) Six instrument approaches.
(ii) Holding procedures and tasks.

(iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigational electronic systems.


(3) Use of an aviation training device for maintaining instrument experience. Within the 2 calendar months preceding the month of the flight, that person performed and logged at least the following tasks, iterations, and time in an aviation training device and has performed the following--

(i) Three hours of instrument experience.
(ii) Holding procedures and tasks.

(iii) Six instrument approaches.

(iv) Two unusual attitude recoveries while in a descending, Vne airspeed condition and two unusual attitude recoveries while in an ascending, stall speed condition.

(v) Interception and tracking courses through the use of navigational electronic systems.

The approaches in the sim count for 2 months, not 6.

Redbird and elite are batd and aatd, so 61.57 c 3 says 2 months and lists the tasks, including recovery from unusual attitudes.

What am I confused about?

.....oh, Now you get precise with the wording. Pardon me!

 

[coma24]

Lol, well he said Redbird in the first post, I assumed we were on the same page that it was an ATD. I see your point though, I should've said 2 months for that type of sim.

 

[wilkersk]

Lol, well he said Redbird in the first post, I assumed we were on the same page that it was an ATD. I see your point though, I should've said 2 months for that type of sim.

I had to go back into the thread and read it a little more carefully. Didn't do that the first time, ---my bad! Besides the whole AATD/FTD thing really messed me up. A lot of misunderstanding going on about that. That Redbird FMX ought to be an FTD to my way of thinking.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I had to go back into the thread and read it a little more carefully. Didn't do that the first time, ---my bad! Besides the whole AATD/FTD thing really messed me up. A lot of misunderstanding going on about that. That Redbird FMX ought to be an FTD to my way of thinking.

Yeah, but FAA categorization and certification of "flight simulators", "flight training devices" and "other than a flight simulator or flight training device for specific purposes" [FAR 61.4], is based on FAR definitions and ACs rather than your or my way of thinking about how the world should be.

 

[Cooter]

You seem to be under the misconception that you can log instrument time in visual conditions just because you are on an IFR plan. That's NOT true. You must be in actual or simulated instrument conditions. Yes, it's true that you can have actual instrument conditions while in legal VMC (my favorite is a moonless and hazy night. Just no way you're staying right side up without flying instruments). I'm not sure why you think looking for traffic means you are not executing an instrument approach.

I'm pretty sure he meant that he can't effectively wear a hood and simulate IMC if he has to be scanning for traffic.

 

[JustinD]

It has to be an instructor. See the Keller letter I linked to in another post.

I'm not sure why it was hard for you to stay current. Did I misunderstand that you were under IFR and shooting approaches with students in actual?

thanks for the correction on the first part

on the second part, instructing II students, or flying my personal plane there are very few days in Florida that you will go past the FAF in IMC. so even if some of the flights were under IFR flight plans, the amount of times you'd go past the FAF in a actual was few and far between. Almost no one I knew was able to stay current just instructing.

 

[midlifeflyer]

thanks for the correction on the first part

on the second part, instructing II students, or flying my personal plane there are very few days in Florida that you will go past the FAF in IMC. so even if some of the flights were under IFR flight plans, the amount of times you'd go past the FAF in a actual was few and far between. Almost no one I knew was able to stay current just instructing.

Makes sense.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I'm pretty sure he meant that he can't effectively wear a hood and simulate IMC if he has to be scanning for traffic.

yup....even if he is on an IFR plan.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm pretty sure he meant that he can't effectively wear a hood and simulate IMC if he has to be scanning for traffic.

He specifically said that.

I think what was being questioned is whether he realized it was against the rules to wear a hood and simulate IMC when "Staying current by myself."

 

[Palmpilot]

...I believe the caveat is that it must be started at the IAF, or you must be vectored onto the final approach course for it to count.

The InFO letter at Jordan's link (in post #8) appears to provide another exception to the IAF requirement when the pilot is "otherwise directed through an appropriate air traffic control (ATC) clearance to a specific IAP." That would seem to cover the ATC practice of clearing pilots direct to an intermediate fix (IF). Under number 5 on page 2:

NOTE: Except when being radar vectored to the final approach course, or otherwise directed through an appropriate air traffic control (ATC) clearance to a specific IAP, pilots must execute the entire IAP commencing at an initial approach fix or associated feeder route and fly the initial segment, the intermediate segment, and the final segment of an IAP [AIM 5-4-7 e)]. If the pilot completes these segments, or receives vectors to the final approach course, he or she may log the IAP. ​

 

[flyingron]

Whatever, I assumed he thought IFR made a difference one way or another. I have run into pilots who thought that being on an IFR plan, unhooded and solo, was countable for currency.