SSRI Rule Outs

[S Suminski]

Hello All,

Very, very new to the Aviation field/industry. Decided to take a discovery flight at a nearby school to determine if I could handle being in a small plane, and could a potential career switch even be possible. Absolutely fell in love!

Did a bit of research (sadly not enough) and talked with CFI's. Stated if you "ever" want to consider a ATP/Airline position just go for your class 1 medical. I discovered use of an SSRI would be a deferral but could possibly turn out to be "SI". I work in the high stress field of law enforcement and after 18 years I am very much considering a career switch.

Went for my medical class 1 which was deferred.

In 2018, my GP prescribed Prozac after seeking help with anxiety, depression, and suicidal thoughts. No plans, no attempts. Come 2019 life caught up with me and I sought help from a therapist for the same issues and that the Prozac wasn't really doing much for me. After a few visits I "believe" I was diagnosed with PTSD due to discussions and prescribed Zoloft/Sertraline. I say believe because after 6-8 weeks of being on Sertraline, had 0 thoughts, the anxiety and depression were greatly reduced. Visitations were continued weekly for about 5 months but I never received an official discharge nor did I review any documentation with the official diagnosis as I stopped seeking treatment. Late 2021, my script ran out and come first quarter 2022 I decided to stop taking the Sertraline altogether.

I have not been able to find any posts, stories or articles on instances of "Rule-Outs" eventually obtaining a med cert. Neuropsychological testing / Cog Screening, seems a bit daunting and expensive. Combine that with possibly being on HIMS guidance seems like it could double the cost of a PPL. If I were a current aviator or it was dependent upon my career, it wouldn't be a consideration not to follow through.

Anyhow, please guide me if I stand a snowball's chance in hell, of ever receiving a med cert with an (SI) from the AMCD or the RFS.

 

[flyingron]

The RFS is not going to be involved, and with a history of suicidal ideation, your application is going nowhere until you are free from suicidal ideations for TEN YEARS.

Even without that, you are headed for HIMS and the full up neuropsych and COGSCREEN. The FAA has to get their kickback.

 

[S Suminski]

Thanks for replying flyingron. I did not see the 10 year requirement listed or defined. Is there a resource or link I could be directed to regarding?

Is the fact of previously having thoughts a 100% automatic exclusion, not reviewable, not for consideration for 10 years / indefinitely? Or is it possible with the positive outcome of a Cogscreen, neuropsych, and HIMS monitoring.

 

[TCABM]

@bbchien

 

[Half Fast]

In 2018, my GP prescribed Prozac after seeking help with anxiety, depression, and suicidal thoughts. No plans, no attempts. Come 2019 life caught up with me and I sought help from a therapist for the same issues and that the Prozac wasn't really doing much for me. After a few visits I "believe" I was diagnosed with PTSD due to discussions and prescribed Zoloft/Sertraline. I say believe because after 6-8 weeks of being on Sertraline, had 0 thoughts, the anxiety and depression were greatly reduced. Visitations were continued weekly for about 5 months but I never received an official discharge nor did I review any documentation with the official diagnosis as I stopped seeking treatment. Late 2021, my script ran out and come first quarter 2022 I decided to stop taking the Sertraline altogether.

We need the site AMEs, @bbchien and @lbfjrmd , to comment, but I suspect the above will be considered “recurring illness, presently untreated.” That, combined with suicidal ideation, means you’re looking at a looong and very expensive path, if it’s possible at all.

It might not be possible at all. It appears you were willing, on your own, to stop medication and to stop seeking treatment. The FAA will be very concerned that someone who has had suicidal ideation on more than one occasion will choose to stop medication and abandon treatment.

Read up on Andreas Lubitz. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525

 

[S Suminski]

@ Half Fast,
Appreciate your reply, every little bit of input helps with my decision on how to continue.
Read up on Andreas Lubitz. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525

Wow...! Extremely tragic. Horrific comes more to mind. Apologies to all who know all about it and might be tired of discussion on it. I don't want to get too off track of the thread nor disrespect anyone or families involved with 9525. I do disagree with part of the final report of The French Bureau of Enquiry and Analysis for Civil Aviation Safety. "deliberate and planned action of the co-pilot, who decided to commit suicide". Um no... decided to commit mass homicide. Really hard to comprehend that something just "snapped" or a thought process manifested with him proceeding with multiple actions to make it happen. Very devastating and heart breaking to those onboard and their loved ones.

As for my situation, "long and expensive path". What's the value of fulfilling a dream worth, but like you said is it even possible?

 

[Dana]

Flying for a living is probably out for you, but you can still fly ultralights or gliders (including motorgliders) without a medical, even when you've been denied.

 

[lbfjrmd]

recurrent treatment and suicidal ideation: a no go with an FAA medical.

 

[S Suminski]

Flying for a living is probably out for you, but you can still fly ultralights or gliders (including motorgliders) without a medical, even when you've been denied.

Hello Dana, didn’t know motor gliders were a thing. I’ll look into it.

 

[S Suminski]

recurrent treatment and suicidal ideation: a no go with an FAA medical.

Hey there lbfjrmd. Thank you for the reply. Yeah totally understand the FAA’s, passengers, and general public’s point of view with it all. To much/not worth the risk, just a hard pill to swallow no pun intended.

When the letter from the FAA arrives from the medical deferral is there anything I need to do or just let the time requirement exceed and a denial is auto generated?

 

[lbfjrmd]

post it here for us too see.

 

[S Suminski]

Copy. Will be a while. 38 days out per MedExpress.

 

[bbchien]

Ten years down, no med no events, and Solid "successful life test" as docuemnted by letters form persons in a position to know. 10 years from suidciality= 2028. But 10 years from no meds also =2032.

B.

 

[S Suminski]

Dr Chien, thank you for confirming and taking the time to post about the 10 years on both and the solid "successful life test". So you're saying there still is a chance...lol

With my situation of currently being in a deferred medical status with no "take-backs" or rescinding the submission I feel like I bought the farm for even a obtaining a sports license which normally would only require a driver's license. I really wish I would have learned this prior to the taking the exam and submission. Which leads me to the following:

Dr Chien, lbfjrmd, and any AME's reading this, cover your ears, errr eyes for a minute. j/k.

I have some "hypothetical" questions. If someone's current med status is in deferral, holds no previous medical certificate, could they if time allowed, still obtain the sport pilots license prior to the time requirements expiring in the FAA response letter? If the deferral is in regards to class 1,2 and 3, PPL being the least, then the deferral doesn't count toward eventually soloing for a sports license?

Per FAA Sport Pilot Medical Certification Questions and Answers, it refers to SI issuance being withdrawn, or medical certification denied, suspended, or revoked... not deferred.
https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/medical_certification/sportpilots/response3.

If there is an approximate 6 week wait as indicated before the person receives the FAA response to the deferral... in addition to possibly 30 days timeline requested for more information from the FAA, could the person commit to and complete their path to a sports license prior to being denied?

 

[Dana]

If someone's current med status is in deferral, holds no previous medical certificate, could they if time allowed, still obtain the sport pilots license prior to the time requirements expiring in the FAA response letter? If the deferral is in regards to class 1,2 and 3, PPL being the least, then the deferral doesn't count toward eventually soloing for a sports license?

No.

The regulations say a sport pilot must "Have been found eligible for the issuance of at least a third class airman medical certificate at the time of his or her most recent application (if the person has applied for a medical certificate)". If you're deferred, you haven't "been found eligible."

 

[Anthem]

Also deferred becomes denied at some point. It never stays deferred is my understanding nor can you keep it there.

 

[S Suminski]

"Dana, post: 3330513, member: 29318"]No.

The regulations say a sport pilot must "Have been found eligible for the issuance of at least a third class airman medical certificate at the time of his or her most recent application (if the person has applied for a medical certificate)". If you're deferred, you haven't "been found eligible."[/I]

Ah I see, thanks for the clarification Dana. While it's not only unlawful but morally indecent not to disclose information in the questions on the 8500-8, knowing what I knew, albiet very limited at the time of the medical appointment, I felt as if there was a stronger possibility of eventually being good to go based on what was discussed in office prior to opting to go through the actual medical. Not to mention the stats brought up of 350,000-400,000 applications for the medical and about 500 being denied a year seemed like decent odds if 10% in office needed to be reviewed by the FAA with only 500 ultimately denied.

To the AME's, what criteria does the FAA use to define suicidal ideation? I see so many variances from the APA and different entities.

Reflecting back, it sure would have been nice to simply go for the sport pilots license and this thread would have never come to fruition. While I completely accept everyone's responses here especially the AME's pointing out I will likely never fly ATP/Commercial/Private, I feel that I would be completely competent, medically fit to have gone the sports route, and not felt any guilt for applying for it.

Looked into the glider and power glider options you mentioned Dana. While flying raw in the sky with with hiss of the winds, and beeping of the variometer seems very exhilarating, it doesn't fit the secondary goal of flying around with family or friends. Locations are sparse, dependency for takeoff if not powered, only flying with one passenger are a bit of a turnoff.

I truly hope after 7 or so years the FAA revisits the sports license option via driver's license and elects to separate it from the 3 med classes.

 

[guest user]

Looked into the glider and power glider options you mentioned Dana. While flying raw in the sky with with hiss of the winds, and beeping of the variometer seems very exhilarating, it doesn't fit the secondary goal of flying around with family or friends. Locations are sparse, dependency for takeoff if not powered, only flying with one passenger are a bit of a turnoff.

I would suggest asking "What can I be doing now that may be a help later?"

It would seem that a quick direct route to your goal is being denied, but when you look back in a few years (after the 10yrs) will you be in the same place you're in now, or will you be in a better place (flying-wise)?

For example, you could do a ton of dual instruction w/o a medical, get your dual XCs out of the way, you could even do some dual instrument training if you want. Get some tail wheel training, complex training. There are a ton of things you can do to prepare for the day when you can get your medical. Yeah, you may end up having a ton of dual time, when you take your check rides, but by doing that you will quickly be able to do your solo activities and get your cert, as opposed to just getting started .

And the FAA will revisit the sports license option via driver's license, the day after they issue you your class III medical. Why? Because that's just how that works.

 

[S Suminski]

I would suggest asking "What can I be doing now that may be a help later?"

It would seem that a quick direct route to your goal is being denied, but when you look back in a few years (after the 10yrs) will you be in the same place you're in now, or will you be in a better place (flying-wise)?

For example, you could do a ton of dual instruction w/o a medical, get your dual XCs out of the way, you could even do some dual instrument training if you want. Get some tail wheel training, complex training. There are a ton of things you can do to prepare for the day when you can get your medical. Yeah, you may end up having a ton of dual time, when you take your check rides, but by doing that you will quickly be able to do your solo activities and get your cert, as opposed to just getting started .

And the FAA will revisit the sports license option via driver's license, the day after they issue you your class III medical. Why? Because that's just how that works.

Thank you very much for replying. (Thumbs up) Sound advice to look at it from a different approach, much appreciated. I'll have to hold off on the "What can I be doing now". Pretty bitter and frustrated with myself for not learning more about the basicMed prior to taking the exam. Would have gone that route otherwise.

Not to mention the 10 years. That's 5 maybe 6 written exams? I do not want to be "that old, odd student" who is at the local flight school with rumors wondering why he taking lessons for 10 years? Let alone would a school or instructors take me on knowing I'd never obtain a cert/rating/license during their instruction period let alone reasons due to my med denial?

Even after the 10 years I foresee mainly being in my same situation. Declare, defer, significant AME retainer, neuro eval, cogscreen, and ultimately no guarantee. On top of that likely multiple years HIMS observation, if not lifetime. I'll be financially set for retirement, but I don't have crypto or NFT type retirement.

I'll possibly stick with Dana's suggestion and hope battery tech greatly improves in powered gliders or eVtols for multiple launch, longer flights, multiple passengers. In the mean time, as I read on another forum post, maybe it's time to just take up sailing.

 

[Anthem]

Pretty bitter and frustrated with myself for not learning more about the basicMed prior to taking the exam. Would have gone that route otherwise.

Not sure why you are bitter or frustrated with yourself. BasicMed isnt and wasnt an option for you. Unless you have previously had a Class III or higher medical - basicMed isnt an option for you. IOW, you cant get basicMed if you cant get a class III medical. It only simplifies FUTURE medicals without going through the hassle you had to previously undergo.

 

[Palmpilot]

Thank you very much for replying. (Thumbs up) Sound advice to look at it from a different approach, much appreciated. I'll have to hold off on the "What can I be doing now". Pretty bitter and frustrated with myself for not learning more about the basicMed prior to taking the exam. Would have gone that route otherwise.

Not to mention the 10 years. That's 5 maybe 6 written exams? I do not want to be "that old, odd student" who is at the local flight school with rumors wondering why he taking lessons for 10 years? Let alone would a school or instructors take me on knowing I'd never obtain a cert/rating/license during their instruction period let alone reasons due to my med denial?

Even after the 10 years I foresee mainly being in my same situation. Declare, defer, significant AME retainer, neuro eval, cogscreen, and ultimately no guarantee. On top of that likely multiple years HIMS observation, if not lifetime. I'll be financially set for retirement, but I don't have crypto or NFT type retirement.

I'll possibly stick with Dana's suggestion and hope battery tech greatly improves in powered gliders or eVtols for multiple launch, longer flights, multiple passengers. In the mean time, as I read on another forum post, maybe it's time to just take up sailing.

I really don't think you have to worry about what people are going to think of you for flying with instructors for ten years, at least not at the rental places that I have been involved with. And flight students come in all ages. Many people start later in life, after they have acquired the resources to do it.

 

[Dana]

I'll possibly stick with Dana's suggestion and hope battery tech greatly improves in powered gliders or eVtols for multiple launch, longer flights, multiple passengers.

Most motorgliders are gas, not electric.

 

[S Suminski]

Not sure why you are bitter or frustrated with yourself. BasicMed isnt and wasnt an option for you. Unless you have previously had a Class III or higher medical - basicMed isnt an option for you. IOW, you cant get basicMed if you cant get a class III medical. It only simplifies FUTURE medicals without going through the hassle you had to previously undergo.

Sorry bout that Anthem, was reading about basicmed when posting... meant lsa/sports piloting.

I really don't think you have to worry about what people are going to think of you for flying with instructors for ten years, at least not at the rental places that I have been involved with. And flight students come in all ages. Many people start later in life, after they have acquired the resources to do it.

True true Palmpilot. Who knows, might have my daughter take my stead and live vicariously through her? Lots and lots to learn more to think on.

Most motorgliders are gas, not electric.

Indeed for now. Who knows in 3, 5, 10 years? Amazed with UAV's I've operated over the last five years with the increased flight times and battery tech.

 

[guest user]

Let alone would a school or instructors take me on knowing I'd never obtain a cert/rating/license during their instruction period let alone reasons due to my med denial?

In this case I would offer another differing point of view. First, I think most pilots are goal oriented people. Therefore, I understand the "If there is no <reasonably realistic> path, what's the point?" (For the record, I do disagree with this assessment, but it does seem to be your take on it)

1) Flight schools exist to help people learn to fly, but the reality is that not everyone will finish, and certainly not everyone will do it in a minimum amount of hours. I, personally did not complete my training my first time at a flight school (age old story of money), so I took a while to finish and used two different flight schools. (I moved, so the original was no longer an option when I restarted). Keep in mind that at the end of day, businesses exist to make money. As long as you're paying your flight costs, they shouldn't be overly concerned if you want to just be an extended time student pilot.

2) This could actually be beneficial for you AND the instructor. Due to there being no way to do this in 3mo, 6mo, or even a year, then there is no pressure on you OR them to try to complete it in a minimum amount of time. You can actually relax and learn about flying and they can relax and actually make sure you're a really competent pilot. They will not feel any subconscious or even overt pressure to get you to your testing time in the shortest amount of time.

3) Flight time is flight time. After this is all over, you will talk about your total time. Nobody talks about "I have 456hrs, but only 367hrs since my private pilot, 145hrs since my instrument, but only 54hrs since my CFI", you get "I am a 456hr CFI" So you would have a lot of hours when you talk to insurance. Also, for the CFI flight time is flight time. They are probably working for their 1500hrs so they can move on to their next big thing. While I have absolute respect for all the CFIs I have worked with, when the goal is to reach <x> hours, they're usually not picky about how they get there. Meaning, your extended student pilot time will not count differently than the young buck who will get his cert in record time.

-----------

On a different note, I want to say that your situation is indeed lousy. No two ways about it. However, I also know that flying is very rewarding. So even if you just decide to scratch the itch a couple of times a month / year I'd say have at it.

 

[Pinecone]

There are people who still fly after losing their medical. They just fly with someone who can be the PIC.

Several own their own planes, but just fly with a second pilot.

 

[S Suminski]

In this case I would offer another differing point of view. First, I think most pilots are goal oriented people. Therefore, I understand the "If there is no <reasonably realistic> path, what's the point?" (For the record, I do disagree with this assessment, but it does seem to be your take on it)

1) Flight schools exist to help people learn to fly, but the reality is that not everyone will finish, and certainly not everyone will do it in a minimum amount of hours. I, personally did not complete my training my first time at a flight school (age old story of money), so I took a while to finish and used two different flight schools. (I moved, so the original was no longer an option when I restarted). Keep in mind that at the end of day, businesses exist to make money. As long as you're paying your flight costs, they shouldn't be overly concerned if you want to just be an extended time student pilot.

2) This could actually be beneficial for you AND the instructor. Due to there being no way to do this in 3mo, 6mo, or even a year, then there is no pressure on you OR them to try to complete it in a minimum amount of time. You can actually relax and learn about flying and they can relax and actually make sure you're a really competent pilot. They will not feel any subconscious or even overt pressure to get you to your testing time in the shortest amount of time.

3) Flight time is flight time. After this is all over, you will talk about your total time. Nobody talks about "I have 456hrs, but only 367hrs since my private pilot, 145hrs since my instrument, but only 54hrs since my CFI", you get "I am a 456hr CFI" So you would have a lot of hours when you talk to insurance. Also, for the CFI flight time is flight time. They are probably working for their 1500hrs so they can move on to their next big thing. While I have absolute respect for all the CFIs I have worked with, when the goal is to reach <x> hours, they're usually not picky about how they get there. Meaning, your extended student pilot time will not count differently than the young buck who will get his cert in record time.

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On a different note, I want to say that your situation is indeed lousy. No two ways about it. However, I also know that flying is very rewarding. So even if you just decide to scratch the itch a couple of times a month / year I'd say have at it.

A heartfelt thankyou. You could have had a morning jog, walked the dog, coffee, or breakfast instead of taking the time to reply this, so again thanks. Since the med exam last week, my take has been back and forth daily, but your input is informed and motivating. There's no back scratcher that reaches this itch other than to get out and fly, which I know will be sooner than later. For how long and often... yet to be determined.

There are people who still fly after losing their medical. They just fly with someone who can be the PIC.

Several own their own planes, but just fly with a second pilot.

Inspiring Pinecone, ty.

 

[Half Fast]

There are people who still fly after losing their medical. They just fly with someone who can be the PIC.

Several own their own planes, but just fly with a second pilot.

After losing his medical, John King got it restored with the stipulation that he could fly 2-pilot aircraft with another qualified pilot who held a medical. That allowed him to fly with Martha, which is what he usually did anyway.

Then he switched to Basic Med and no longer needed the FAA medical.

 

[bbchien]

After losing his medical, John King got it restored with the stipulation that he could fly 2-pilot aircraft with another qualified pilot who held a medical. That allowed him to fly with Martha, which is what he usually did anyway.

Then he switched to Basic Med and no longer needed the FAA medical.

But he could no longer crew the jet….

 

[Half Fast]

But he could no longer crew the jet….

Yep, you’re right, he can’t under Basic Med. The last time I looked at it he still had both the restricted class 3 and Basic. So he could crew the plane with Martha, but still fly solo in Basic-eligible aircraft.