Sport Pilot rentals with medical required?

[valittu]

I talked to a CFI who told me that some insurance companies are requiring Sport Pilots to have a current medical to rent LSAs. Doesn't this undermine the whole "no medical" benefit of Sport Pilot? I'm not even sure of which rentals he was talking about because, to my knowledge, there are no LSAs for rent at KHEF where we spoke. I'm just curious of this is happening anywhere else in the country.

 

[flyingron]

I have heard similar things. Insurance companies have always been fairly arbitrary with what they require over and above compliance with the FARs. Sport pilot rentals (other than some instruction) is probably going to be real popular. Nice thing that except for certain bizarro things like the Skycatcher, LSAs are pretty affordable to purchase.

There was a LSA-compliant Ercoupe down at CJR for a while, I don't know if it is still available for rental.

 

[Geico266]

Insurance companies are not in the business promoting aviation, they are in the business of mitigating risk.

 

[PW_Plack]

I talked to a CFI who told me that some insurance companies are requiring Sport Pilots to have a current medical to rent LSAs. Doesn't this undermine the whole "no medical" benefit of Sport Pilot?

Insurance underwriters may feel that the whole Sport Pilot thing undermines their years of risk assessment. The FAA allows you to fly an LSA without a medical. It doesn't force strangers who think that's a bad idea to let you fly theirs!

This may be a harbinger of the future if FAA does away with the 3rd medical for private pilots. If insurance companies find there is a valid statistical difference, they'll require a medical standard for coverage.

We might be better off in many ways if the insurance companies ran the show. The FAA can be as arbitrary and slow to adapt as can be, and we're just stuck with it. But if the 3rd really makes no difference, some competing insurance company would see an opportunity, and cover private pilots with no medical.

 

[Jim Logajan]

I was able to rent an insured glider without a medical.

 

[HighFlyingA380]

The flight school that I work at allows C162 rentals without a medical. We just require a signed release form stating that you are in compliance with the applicable FARs meaning that you would be able to pass a 3rd class.

 

[douglas393]

I am someone who spends a larger percentage of my business gross income on insurance, and thus have no shortage of hate to what I see as a overpriced, pompous, morally corrupt industry which increases their premiums, at the same time they decrease their payouts, and costs, so that they can pay their board of directors, and executives higher and higher salaries. Before I go on a tirade I will get to my point. Other than ripping people off the other goal of insurance companies is to mitigate risk. What better way than decreasing the population eligible to utilize something they are insuring.

 

[Concorde]

The flight school that I work at allows C162 rentals without a medical. We just require a signed release form stating that you are in compliance with the applicable FARs meaning that you would be able to pass a 3rd class.

That is worst than asking for medical if anything ever happens the renter be in deep.....
I could be wrong but my understanding is , if you know you are healthy enough to drive car you are healthy enough to fly LSA .

 

[Henning]

Insurance companies are not in the business promoting aviation, they are in the business of mitigating risk.

Mmmmm, no, they are in the business of making money, they do this by mitigating risk.

 

[Henning]

The flight school that I work at allows C162 rentals without a medical. We just require a signed release form stating that you are in compliance with the applicable FARs meaning that you would be able to pass a 3rd class.

Negative, in order to be compliant with the applicable FARs, one has to be medically qualified to hold a state driver's license. The FARs say nothing about a Third Class Medical for a Sport or higher licensed Pilot operating an LSA.

 

[vintage cessna]

I talked to a CFI who told me that some insurance companies are requiring Sport Pilots to have a current medical to rent LSAs. Doesn't this undermine the whole "no medical" benefit of Sport Pilot? I'm not even sure of which rentals he was talking about because, to my knowledge, there are no LSAs for rent at KHEF where we spoke. I'm just curious of this is happening anywhere else in the country.

I know of no aviation insurance writers that require anything more than what the FAA requires medically to pilot an LSA. However, I am aware of some FBO's that use " insurance requirements" as cover for their own policies.

 

[Tristar]

I know we don't require a customer to have a medical to rent our 162 but I'm sure all it will take is one mistake and that will be history.

 

[RJM62]

Insurance companies don't make any money by saying "No." I really can't imagine a company choosing to turn away an entire pool of potential insureds unless they had some actuarial data to back up that decision. Otherwise, I think they'd just raise the rates a bit to cover any perceived increase in risk insuring pilots using DL medicals.

-Rich

 

[Henning]

Insurance companies don't make any money by saying "No." I really can't imagine a company choosing to turn away an entire pool of potential insureds unless they had some actuarial data to back up that decision. Otherwise, I think they'd just raise the rates a bit to cover any perceived increase in risk insuring pilots using DL medicals.

-Rich

They'll be cheaper actually as the risk of someone flying under SP rules is lower since they only get one passenger. Actuaries are scary smart, they understand that a Class III medical is meaningless with regards to risk.

 

[vintage cessna]

They'll be cheaper actually as the risk of someone flying under SP rules is lower since they only get one passenger. Actuaries are scary smart, they understand that a Class III medical is meaningless with regards to risk.

This is true. In my experience , there are only three factors that determine a premium for an aircraft that an FBO rents to the public :

1. Number of seats
2. Hull value
3. Claims history of the FBO

 

[Henning]

This is true. In my experience , there are only three factors that determine a premium for an aircraft that an FBO rents to the public :

1. Number of seats
2. Hull value
3. Claims history of the FBO

Yep, but rental insurance is already 'top premium' insurance. For private insurance 'Time in Type' is a biggie with 100hrs being the significant drop point.

 

[gismo]

I know of no aviation insurance writers that require anything more than what the FAA requires medically to pilot an LSA. However, I am aware of some FBO's that use " insurance requirements" as cover for their own policies.

Just like the FBOs that won't let customers in the shop because their "insurance policy says it's not allowed".

 

[HighFlyingA380]

Negative, in order to be compliant with the applicable FARs, one has to be medically qualified to hold a state driver's license. The FARs say nothing about a Third Class Medical for a Sport or higher licensed Pilot operating an LSA.

Ah, that sounds familiar. I must have mistakenly heard/remembered. Thanks for the correction.

 

[douglas393]

They'll be cheaper actually as the risk of someone flying under SP rules is lower since they only get one passenger. Actuaries are scary smart, they understand that a Class III medical is meaningless with regards to risk.

This is true, but I think the actuaries may be looking at this from a different viewpoint as well. If they require the medical then the actuaries know that less people will be able to meet their requirements to fly the plane. By decreasing the pool of potential renters they decrease the use of the rental and thus decrease the chances of an event.

 

[Henning]

This is true, but I think the actuaries may be looking at this from a different viewpoint as well. If they require the medical then the actuaries know that less people will be able to meet their requirements to fly the plane. By decreasing the pool of potential renters they decrease the use of the rental and thus decrease the chances of an event.

Insurance companies are not asking for medicals for these operations.

 

[douglas393]

I talked to a CFI who told me that some insurance companies are requiring Sport Pilots to have a current medical to rent LSAs. Doesn't this undermine the whole "no medical" benefit of Sport Pilot? I'm not even sure of which rentals he was talking about because, to my knowledge, there are no LSAs for rent at KHEF where we spoke. I'm just curious of this is happening anywhere else in the country.

Insurance companies are not asking for medicals for these operations.

You may be right but according to the OP they are.

 

[denverpilot]

Mmmmm, no, they are in the business of making money, they do this by mitigating risk.

They do this by very accurately guessing at the risk and charging more than the risk will require them to pay out.

Well, when done right anyway.

When you're "too big to fail" like AIG, you get free loans from your regulators who then get to make money off of you instead of divest you and toss your leadership's collective asses to the curb.

 

[douglas393]

They do this by very accurately guessing at the risk and charging more than the risk will require them to pay out.

Well, when done right anyway.

When you're "too big to fail" like AIG, you get free loans from your regulators who then get to make money off of you instead of divest you and toss your leadership's collective asses to the curb.

I may be wrong but I thought that a lot of the insurance companies make a lot of their money by investing a fair percentage of the money they get from premiums.

 

[Henning]

You may be right but according to the OP they are.

"Heard it from a CFI that some are" is not a valid source of info. The insurance industry is regulated by the states as to what may and may not be excluded in a policy. The insurance industry follows the guidelines of what the law allows and sets their premiums accordingly. If they will not write to SPs that legally may operate their aircraft, that means that there will be SPs operating their aircraft without coverage who would otherwise have coverage. The states will not allow that situation to occur. There maybe FBOs that set this policy of not renting without a medical and saying that it's the insurance's requirement, however if one would challenge them on this and ask to read the policy, they will quickly discover this is a lie.

 

[Henning]

I may be wrong but I thought that a lot of the insurance companies make a lot of their money by investing a fair percentage of the money they get from premiums.

Yes, and they failed because they were buying unregulated OTC securities thanks to Alan Greenspan blocking Brooksely Borne from doing her job.

 

[denverpilot]

I may be wrong but I thought that a lot of the insurance companies make a lot of their money by investing a fair percentage of the money they get from premiums.

True. They invest to hedge and lower premiums amongst other things. They also sell " investments" that aren't such hot performers as "insurance" with very high fees and skim some there too. Annuities where they figure you'll die before they finish paying. Insurance against the other guy or gal being uninsured for their negligence. The list goes on.

Modern insurance companies make good money launderers look like amateur hour.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

The simple fact is that LSAs are falling from the sky at an alarming rate now that FAA medical certificates are no longer required. A simple check of accident rate of traditional LSA aircraft in the NTSB data base shows that since the LSA rules were enacted the total accident rate has soared to nearly half of what it was in the 1980s.

 

[vintage cessna]

The simple fact is that LSAs are falling from the sky at an alarming rate now that FAA medical certificates are no longer required. A simple check of accident rate of traditional LSA aircraft in the NTSB data base shows that since the LSA rules were enacted the total accident rate has soared to nearly half of what it was in the 1980s.

That chart looks more like a tally than a rate. It also seems to mirror the economic fortunes of the country.

 

[douglas393]

"Heard it from a CFI that some are" is not a valid source of info. The insurance industry is regulated by the states as to what may and may not be excluded in a policy. The insurance industry follows the guidelines of what the law allows and sets their premiums accordingly. If they will not write to SPs that legally may operate their aircraft, that means that there will be SPs operating their aircraft without coverage who would otherwise have coverage. The states will not allow that situation to occur. There maybe FBOs that set this policy of not renting without a medical and saying that it's the insurance's requirement, however if one would challenge them on this and ask to read the policy, they will quickly discover this is a lie.

Never said it was valid, though never said it was invalid either, just commented on why it may occur. The way I see it, the goal of the FBO(rental agency) is to rent the airplane as much as possible, but also make sure that it is available to be rented(ie. does not crash). I think the general consensus(and as you have stated) among most familiar with GA is that the need for a third class medical does not have much of an affect on the safety of flying, and that eliminating this need will not increase the accident rate. Certainly, the FAA feels this way with in the confines of sport pilot. So why would an FBO limit the number of possible renters through a policy that they do not have to do based on the federal regulations concerning that activity and that does not afford them any benefit financially or otherwise, unless someone else(the insurance company possibly) is forcing them to do it? From a purely business perspective this would be a terrible policy.

 

[vintage cessna]

Never said it was valid, though never said it was invalid either, just commented on why it may occur. The way I see it, the goal of the FBO(rental agency) is to rent the airplane as much as possible, but also make sure that it is available to be rented(ie. does not crash). I think the general consensus(and as you have stated) among most familiar with GA is that the need for a third class medical does not have much of an affect on the safety of flying, and that eliminating this need will not increase the accident rate. Certainly, the FAA feels this way with in the confines of sport pilot. So why would an FBO limit the number of possible renters through a policy that they do not have to do based on the federal regulations concerning that activity and that does not afford them any benefit financially or otherwise, unless someone else(the insurance company possibly) is forcing them to do it? From a purely business perspective this would be a terrible policy.

You're right, it is a terrible policy, but nothing new about that. I'll tell you how it happens. An elderly guy walks in to the flight school, he already has a PPL, hasn't flown in years , no medical, and states he wants to fly LSA. The FBO owner, after observing this fellow, wonders how this guy even managed to drive to the airport and is petrified of thought of this man piloting an airplane. Knee jerk reaction, we can't have this sort of situation, require a medical.

What the FBO owner doesn't realize, is that the elderly gentleman never really intends to fly without an instructor. He may fly once or twice or maybe even three times and then never to be seen again. Easy money lost.

 

[douglas393]

You're right, it is a terrible policy, but nothing new about that. I'll tell you how it happens. An elderly guy walks in to the flight school, he already has a PPL, hasn't flown in years , no medical, and states he wants to fly LSA. The FBO owner, after observing this fellow, wonders how this guy even managed to drive to the airport and is petrified of thought of this man piloting an airplane. Knee jerk reaction, we can't have this sort of situation, require a medical.

What the FBO owner doesn't realize, is that the elderly gentleman never really intends to fly without an instructor. He may fly once or twice or maybe even three times and then never to be seen again. Easy money lost.

Is not this why most FBO's have required checkrides with one of their instructors before renting the plane to someone they do not know? If not I would think that would be a better policy than alienating a whole pool of perspective clients.

 

[denverpilot]

The simple fact is that LSAs are falling from the sky at an alarming rate now that FAA medical certificates are no longer required. A simple check of accident rate of traditional LSA aircraft in the NTSB data base shows that since the LSA rules were enacted the total accident rate has soared to nearly half of what it was in the 1980s.

And were they actually being flown by those without medicals?

How many LSAs were available in the 80s? Were they a popular choice back then?

 

[denverpilot]

Additionally, were the crashes directly caused by something a medical would catch?

 

[vintage cessna]

Is not this why most FBO's have required checkrides with one of their instructors before renting the plane to someone they do not know? If not I would think that would be a better policy than alienating a whole pool of perspective clients.

People dumb themselves to death all the time. In this case, it's easier to just shrug your shoulders and say the insurance company made me do it.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

And were they actually being flown by those without medicals?

No way to know without a lot more work than I am interested in doing. Do you want a list of the NTSB event IDs so you can look them up?

How many LSAs were available in the 80s? Were they a popular choice back then?

The data presented is for airplanes mostly built in the 1940s. Some aircraft would have been lost to accidents, and some would have been dragged out of barns and restored. The net result?

Additionally, were the crashes directly caused by something a medical would catch?

That would be even more difficult to determine than how many actually had a medical or not. Again, I can give you a list of all the data points.

And, there is the question of how much these aircraft are being flown. No one has any clue about how many geezers have given up on medicals and are flying under the SP rules - in the FAA statistics they are not listed as active pilots if their medical has expired and they are not included in the sport pilot population since they have a "Private or better" certificate. But, without a significant increase in the number of accidents per year in exactly the same aircraft for the time periods before and after the SP rules, it's hard to argue that letting people fly without an FAA medical is the disaster that some people seem to wish it was.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

You're right, it is a terrible policy, but nothing new about that. I'll tell you how it happens. An elderly guy walks in to the flight school, he already has a PPL, hasn't flown in years , no medical, and states he wants to fly LSA. The FBO owner, after observing this fellow, wonders how this guy even managed to drive to the airport and is petrified of thought of this man piloting an airplane. Knee jerk reaction, we can't have this sort of situation, require a medical.

Right. Require a medical. Doesn't matter if he can pass a flight review or not, it's being able to get the medical documentation that will determine if he/she/it is fit to fly.

I would assume that the same FBO would require a medical before providing an introductory flight in a non-LSA aircraft?

 

[Henning]

Is not this why most FBO's have required checkrides with one of their instructors before renting the plane to someone they do not know? If not I would think that would be a better policy than alienating a whole pool of perspective clients.

No one yet has cited an example of it actually happening.

 

[jnmeade]

I talked to a CFI who told me that some insurance companies are requiring Sport Pilots to have a current medical to rent LSAs. Doesn't this undermine the whole "no medical" benefit of Sport Pilot? I'm not even sure of which rentals he was talking about because, to my knowledge, there are no LSAs for rent at KHEF where we spoke. I'm just curious of this is happening anywhere else in the country.

Curious about the medical. Did you get the impression the person meant an FAA physical? Did anyone ask about a CDL medical, a sports or school medical, maybe a routine check up from a doctor, maybe simply a doctor's statement of medical sufficiency?

 

[douglas393]

No one yet has cited an example of it actually happening.

Possibly. The OP could be reporting something that never would happen. I guess that would make as much sense as anything else, but then again the stupidity of people (including myself) at times never ceases to amaze me. Everytime, I think I have seen something that I could never believe could or would happen someone or something comes along to prove me wrong. Maybe, I think this whole thread should be deleted.

 

[jcwCT]

Capt. Thorpe,

Your "simple fact" is simply not based on facts. LSAs are not "falling from the sky" and LSA accidents due to medical issues that would have been detected by a flight surgeon haven't just been statistically insignificant... there haven't been any.

Before you make blanket statements, I suggest you review the LSA safety studies the folks at Aviation Safety (and other flying magazines) have done over the last three years. The accident rate for LSAs has been higher than that of certified GA single engine piston aircraft. Take out a few trouble-prone models, and that rate drops to being only slightly higher... and the majority of the accidents that make that accident rate slightly higher are comparatively minor RLOC, collapsed nose gears due to hard landings etc.

One thing that has stood out in all of the safety reviews is that newly minted Sport Pilots have a better safety record than experienced Private Pilots "trading down" to LSAs. Those who approach LSAs with a "Hell, I've flown ____________ and __________ (fill in the blanks) for years... flying this little thing will be a piece of cake" attitude quickly find out that LSAs can be much less forgiving if one's (actual) "stick and rudder skills" are rusty or if one flares even a bit too high on landing and runs out of energy.

Finally, the legacy LSAs in your chart are not representative of the fleet as a whole -- you need to include the modern composite and aluminum LSAs sold by Flight Design, Jabiru, Tecnam and the like as well as the modern interpretations of the classics by CubCrafters, Rans, etc.