Spin Endorsement???

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
This month's FAA Safety magazine makes mention of it on pg9. I had no idea there was such a thing. Can someone share what they know about the requirements and their experience in attaining the endorsement?
 
It's required as a prerequisite for the CFI-Airplane and CFI-Glider practical tests.
(1) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins
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It is not required just to go out and do spins in a spin-approved airplane yourself, although getting such training to pilot (rather than instructional) proficiency would probably be a real good idea before trying it.
 
The spin endorsement is required for a CFI rating.

20 years ago, my instructor would not sign me off for the checkride unless I spun with him. We went up to about 6,000' IIRC and I spun and managed to get it out of the spin. He, however, had wanted me to come out of the spin pointed toward the airport. Once I was in the spin, I didn't care which way I was going after I got out, I just wanted out.

As a result of not coming out on the right heading, he did not give me the spin endorsement, but was willing to sign me off for the check ride. As it turns out, learning so much on the internet after taking up flying again 20 years later, it's just as well. I know that to be a good CFI, which is my goal, I need to be absolutely PROFICIENT dealing with spins, not just have the words in my logbook.

After my spin episode, I was away from flying a few months and went back to fly with the same instructor so he could sign me off to solo again. In the course of this ride, he wanted me to do a stall from a climbing turn. I had forgotten that I was supposed to pick up the wing with the rudder and broke into a for real spin, although I've been corrected saying that it must have been a spiraling dive. I got out of the spin and once leveled off I asked him if he had helped me, and he said that he had not touched it. It was a confidence building, albeit frightening experience.

The spin endorsement might be required for other ratings as well. I'm not sure. I do know that I plan on doing the spin training as soon as I finish my private to get it out of the way, and to be a better pilot.
 
Spin entry and recovery should be required and on the checkride for a private pilot's license (much the same as flying in actual IMC should be required for an instrument rating). Really, it's just an "unusual attitude." They're a little unnerving maybe the first few times, but after that they're really a lot of fun and a huge confidence builder. More than anything, they'll keep you from ever spinning by accident.

Why let the "base to final skidding turn" continue to kill people?
 
Best defense (other than lip service "pilot error won't happen to me") against base-to-final stall/spin is an angle-of-attack gauge. Or a canard.
 
thomascannon said:
Spin entry and recovery should be required and on the checkride for a private pilot's license (much the same as flying in actual IMC should be required for an instrument rating). Really, it's just an "unusual attitude." They're a little unnerving maybe the first few times, but after that they're really a lot of fun and a huge confidence builder. More than anything, they'll keep you from ever spinning by accident.

Why let the "base to final skidding turn" continue to kill people?
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In years past, it was indeed required for a PPL. What they learned, however, was that they were losing more pilots and instructors to training spins than to real spin accidents. At least that's what I read somewhere. I think the requirement was removed as far back as the fifties or sixties.
 
My plane is placarded against spins - says so right in the plane.

I begged my instructor to show me a spin anyway but he refused.

One day I hope to get some more training in regards to unusual attitudes / upset recovery.

Seems like it would be fun and maybe save my skin.
 
MBDiagMan said:
In years past, it was indeed required for a PPL. What they learned, however, was that they were losing more pilots and instructors to training spins than to real spin accidents. At least that's what I read somewhere. I think the requirement was removed as far back as the fifties or sixties.
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And low and behold, despite all that claimed it would lead to death and destruction, there was no appreciable increase in stall/spin accidents/deaths when they dropped the requirement.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I don't think it is. Maybe I should ask my CFI if he can show me a spin in that one? I am afraid his answer might be "no".
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I asked every one of the CFI's at my local airport, none of them would show me...... or have me recover from a spin. I was told the 172 wouldn't spin without your foot on the rudder to force it.

Im going to start my taildragger endorsement next month in a Citabria. Ill ask that instructor for spin training.
 
If you're going to do spins in any plane for the first time, in addition to making sure there are no placards prohibiting it, be sure there is absolutely nothing loose inside the plane, like pens, tow bars, etc. Then, be sure your instructor has done a lot of them, and knows how to recover. A poor recovery can add a lot of g to an airplane.

I would guess that most instructors out there generally do not do a lot of spins. Then, the question of needing chutes comes up, and the FAR's have been interpreted multiple ways in this regard (necessary or not for spins, solo flight, etc), and the subject has been beaten to death already.

Once you've gotten the aerobatics bug you can go over to Livermore and do some real acro in a plane that is stressed for it.
 
AcroBoy said:
If you're going to do spins in any plane for the first time, in addition to making sure there are no placards prohibiting it, be sure there is absolutely nothing loose inside the plane, like pens, tow bars, etc. Then, be sure your instructor has done a lot of them, and knows how to recover. A poor recovery can add a lot of g to an airplane.

I would guess that most instructors out there generally do not do a lot of spins. Then, the question of needing chutes comes up, and the FAR's have been interpreted multiple ways in this regard (necessary or not for spins, solo flight, etc), and the subject has been beaten to death already.

Once you've gotten the aerobatics bug you can go over to Livermore and do some real acro in a plane that is stressed for it.
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Livermore? Can you give me more information? I wanted to get my tailwheel endorsement, but for no real reason - just to do acro and stuff.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Livermore? Can you give me more information? I wanted to get my tailwheel endorsement, but for no real reason - just to do acro and stuff.
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:rofl:

That's how I'm accumulating my endorsements......

Pilot 1: "Why are you going to do that?"
Pilot 2: "Why Not?"
Pilot 1: "Good point."
 
http://www.attitudeaviation.com/

Not cheap, but they do have some cool planes and good instructors.

If you're looking for a tailwheel conversion on a budget, talk to Lou Fields at Oakland - he's an *amazing* instructor (despite/because of being in his 80s) and the Champ is cheap to run.
 
Fearless Tower said:
And low and behold, despite all that claimed it would lead to death and destruction, there was no appreciable increase in stall/spin accidents/deaths when they dropped the requirement.
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Yes, that's what I've read.

Also, this thread is indicating that maybe there are instructors that aren't comfortable spinning an airplane despite the requirement for them to be proficient.

My goal is to be a CFI. I plan on being proficient with spins or I will not permit myself to be a CFI.

Doc
 
pericynthion said:
http://www.attitudeaviation.com/

Not cheap, but they do have some cool planes and good instructors.

If you're looking for a tailwheel conversion on a budget, talk to Lou Fields at Oakland - he's an *amazing* instructor (despite/because of being in his 80s) and the Champ is cheap to run.
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Cheap is good. And to me, age in a CFI is a good thing. Thank you. Once I run out of POA pilot flights to do (I have started a memopad on my BB for this), and then can afford to create a "flying budget," I will look him up.
 
MBDiagMan said:
My goal is to be a CFI. I plan on being proficient with spins or I will not permit myself to be a CFI.
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Let me take a moment to say THANK YOU for this. Sigh.

This thread makes me sad. My first CFI and I spun the crap out of a couple of Skyhawks. It's fun.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Cheap is good. And to me, age in a CFI is a good thing. Thank you. Once I run out of POA pilot flights to do (I have started a memopad on my BB for this), and then can afford to create a "flying budget," I will look him up.
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Kim,

Flying the Champ is amazing. It's slow and fun. You can see out of them like you wouldn't believe. On top of that, they will really sharpen your rudder skills.

If they had an electrical system and weren't so expensive due to their qualification for LSA, I might very well have bought one. It would be the perfect plane for my meadow.

Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
In years past, it was indeed required for a PPL. What they learned, however, was that they were losing more pilots and instructors to training spins than to real spin accidents. At least that's what I read somewhere. I think the requirement was removed as far back as the fifties or sixties.
Click to expand...
That's half of it. The other half is, as mentioned above, that no spin recovery training in the world will save you from a spin at low altitude. That's why the FAA changed the focus from spin recovery to spin prevention. In addition, fewer training planes are approved for intentional spins, so it's harder every year to find one in which to do the training.
 
Ron Levy said:
Better yet is learning what an airplane feels like just before it stalls.
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:yeahthat:

An AoA indicator won't help you when your eyes are outside where they tend to be during a base-final turn. Knowing the feel (and how to respond) will.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
My plane is placarded against spins - says so right in the plane.

I begged my instructor to show me a spin anyway but he refused.
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Good for your instructor.
One day I hope to get some more training in regards to unusual attitudes / upset recovery.

Seems like it would be fun and maybe save my skin.
Click to expand...
It could indeed, but learning how to avoid those situations is even better, because sometimes even Chuck Yeager, Bob Hoover, or Scott Crossfield (in their prime) couldn't save the day.
 
Ron Levy said:
Better yet is learning what an airplane feels like just before it stalls.
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A popular idea, and a good one, but the base turn stall/spin isn't actually a stall/spin -- it's technically a snap roll, and the plane gives no indication of the impending stall. The stall begins at the outside edge of one wingtip and moves in the direction of the other wingtip quite rapidly. No horn; no buffet. She just goes over.

Or that's how it works when you cross up the controls in a Pitts or an Extra. I've done it many times.

It's thankfully very easy to NOT do it. Just keep your feet and your hands on the same page and stay coordinated. Stay coordinated and life is easy.
 
Fearless Tower said:
And low and behold, despite all that claimed it would lead to death and destruction, there was no appreciable increase in stall/spin accidents/deaths when they dropped the requirement.
Click to expand...

Nore has there been a decrease.

Which is no surprise since "we" teach that "stall speed increases with bank" and "keep banks shallow in the pattern" so pilots are watching bank angle instead of pull...
:stirpot:
 
Ron Levy said:
Better yet is learning what an airplane feels like just before it stalls.
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Right! Exactly! Which is what you learn when being properly taught in spin entry, and spin recovery.

Not so much emphasis on the spin itself, but on the feel, the feel of the stall as too much inside rudder is being applied and the incipient stage of stalling and falling into the low wing. ..and then developing the instinctive knee-jerk response of opposite rudder away from the falling/stalling wing, which gets it back upright along with aileron to get back the coordination,..and viola! you're back to your base-to-final turn.

That should be the main purpose and practice of "spin prevention" rather than spin recovery.

Once you learn to "feel" the impending stall in an uncoordinated turn and recover as it stalls, that is the main objective of the training that is really required of a Private Pilot.

The FAA Flight Training Handbook talks about stalls from uncoordinated turns, climbing and gliding, and these maneuvers are supposed to be taught to all pilot trainees, specifically student pilots.

The actual spin does not have to be occur to learn to feel the impending entry, although I would recommend it, if all else is favorable, including student interest.

But, this type of exaggerated stall entry/detection & recovery is not tested on any PP checkrides, so they don't get taught.

It is even considered unnecessary to teach turning stalls at all because the PTS says "straight or turning", and most DPEs just do straight.

And, as I have read on many accounts here, many PPs encounter their first turning stall on a checkride, but it usually doesn't go out of control, so they "get by", an never realize how they have been set up to not realize the danger of not being in good control throughout a turning stall.

The recent crash(es) of airliners which stalled and the pilots didn't "feel" it coming is enough evidence for me to continue my personal commitment to better stall training. That's just something out there that I can point to, but from my own personal experience with training and re-training pilots, real-world stall prevention proficiency is not currently required to demonstrate for a certification ride.

Examiners can "sample" an applicants skills, per the PTS. But the instructor must train to the highest possible level at least as described in the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook which is referenced as how to perform all "testable" levels of flight performance.

The instructor certifies that level of proficiency when he signs him/her of for that certification ride.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Nore has there been a decrease.
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That is simply not true.

spin_4.gif


http://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/stall_spin.html
 
Ron Levy said:
Good for your instructor.
It could indeed, but learning how to avoid those situations is even better, because sometimes even Chuck Yeager, Bob Hoover, or Scott Crossfield (in their prime) couldn't save the day.
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+1 on that, Ron. Kim, you already know this, I'm sure, but don't ever spin an airplane that's placarded against it. I used to own a PulsarXP when I lived in SoCal and they had nasty spin characteristics...made me scared to even stall it.

As for Chuck Yeager, I think he was the one who said "I'd rather be lucky than good". I'm with him on that!
 
lostpilot28 said:
+1 on that, Ron. Kim, you already know this, I'm sure, but don't ever spin an airplane that's placarded against it. I used to own a PulsarXP when I lived in SoCal and they had nasty spin characteristics...made me scared to even stall it.

As for Chuck Yeager, I think he was the one who said "I'd rather be lucky than good". I'm with him on that!
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Thanks, and welcome to POA.

I would not spin that plane, when I said I asked my CFI to show me spins, what I did not mention was we were in a ground lesson at that time. If he said "yes" I'm sure he would have used their Citabria or 172.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Thanks, and welcome to POA.

I would not spin that plane, when I said I asked my CFI to show me spins, what I did not mention was we were in a ground lesson at that time. If he said "yes" I'm sure he would have used their Citabria or 172.
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Thanks! Glad to be here. Yeah, it's the whole "lack of context" thing that internet forums are so great for...I thought you begged him to spin your airplane AFTER you noted the placard. LOL. :eek:
 
lostpilot28 said:
Thanks! Glad to be here. Yeah, it's the whole "lack of context" thing that internet forums are so great for...I thought you begged him to spin your airplane AFTER you noted the placard. LOL. :eek:
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Oh dear God no. I've been called "timid" on POA before. Doubt I'd see a rule and then want to break it.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
My plane is placarded against spins - says so right in the plane.

I begged my instructor to show me a spin anyway but he refused.

One day I hope to get some more training in regards to unusual attitudes / upset recovery.

Seems like it would be fun and maybe save my skin.
Click to expand...
My airplane is only placarded against intentional spins. Apparently, unintentional ones are perfectly okay. :rolleyes::D

But my primary CFI had me spin the 172 one fine summer day. I did okay, but I don't really feel that it's something I'd like to do again.

Ever again, in fact. :no:
 
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