Spin Endorsement???

[AcroBoy]

After doing probably thousands of spins upright and inverted, accelerated, flat, left and right, there is nothing that can substitute for knowing what the plane feels like just before the break, but you will never overcome the sense of fear about spins until you become confident in the recovery.

The first few times it seems like a blur, but after a while things slow down and you can focus on finesse. (kind of like some other non-aviation related activities). At least in my opinion, flying acro, like getting an IR, really can improve your flying skills and feel for an airplane.

 

[Jaybird180]

IIRC you have to put the 172P in the utility category to legally spin it. I'm still scratching my head on that one.

 

[denverpilot]

IIRC you have to put the 172P in the utility category to legally spin it. I'm still scratching my head on that one.

Forward CG.

 

[RoscoeT]

Because, no amount of spin training will enable you to recover from that kind of low altitude spin.

Sure it will. A one turn spin in the J-3 loses no more than 400'...and that's letting it actually develop. You can stop an incipient spin in less altitude before it even develops past 1/4 turn. If you actually let it go up to one turn, it likely means you're confused, panicked, and don't know what's going on or what to do. You might not recover even if you had 1000' more altitude. If you're comfortable and experienced enough to yawn during all spin modes and recover on heading, then you can sure as hell recover from a potential spin from pattern altitudes. It's unlikely you'd get into this situation yourself, but it could possibly happen as a CFI with a student. The average CFI has very limited experience and comfort level with spins, beyond the basic spin endorsement, which barely scratches the surface of experience, knowledge, and competence with spins.

 

[RyanShort1]

Sure it will. A one turn spin in the J-3 loses no more than 400'...and that's letting it actually develop. You can stop an incipient spin in less altitude before it even develops past 1/4 turn. If you actually let it go up to one turn, it likely means you're confused, panicked, and don't know what's going on or what to do. You might not recover even if you had 1000' more altitude. If you're comfortable and experienced enough to yawn during all spin modes and recover on heading, then you can sure as hell recover from a potential spin from pattern altitudes. It's unlikely you'd get into this situation yourself, but it could possibly happen as a CFI with a student. The average CFI has very limited experience and comfort level with spins, beyond the basic spin endorsement, which barely scratches the surface of experience, knowledge, and competence with spins.

I'll say this, as a rookie CFI candidate, I was totally unprepared for spin training. I "knew" the concepts, but putting them into action was a real challenge on my first couple of spins. being with an extraordinary pilot, who was a Raven in Vietnam, and a really good instructor really made a big difference. Since being a CFI, I've had students put me into incipient spins a couple of times, and a full spin at least once. I personally think that training was pretty valuable.
Roscoe is also right about the J-3. It is pretty fun to spin, and can be done with reasonably minimal altitude loss if done correctly. Of course, getting back that altitude takes a while, too...
I personally don't think that a PP is necessarily capable of recovering from a spin, but I do think that they should know how to stop an incipient spin, and have seen it at altitude in competent hands. Of course, the other best way to stay out of spins is good rudder work, too. Students are likely to practice stalls at some point before their checkride solo, and they NEED to be coordinated, otherwise they may find themselves needing that spin recovery procedure.

Ryan

 

[RoscoeT]

Why does it make you sad?

Probably because there is so much fear, reluctance, and inexperience with such a simple controllable flight maneuver for which recovery had been figured out by 1920.

 

[MSPAviator]

Basically the first thing I did after getting my Private was to get my tailwheel endorsement and do some spins. After about 20 hours of learning how to land & solo in a "real" airplane, then doing dutch rolls, and leafs, I finally got to spins.

The first time I got into an intentional power off stall and entered a spin, everything seemed to happen very quickly and it was a bit disorientating. After a few spins though, you get used to it... Power to idle (if it isn't already), stick full forward and hard opposite rudder. Plane stops spinning and is in a steep nose down attitude and you pull out of it.

The thought of an inverted spin still bothers me because I haven't practiced/recovered from that.

I got really good about using my rudder pedals all the time while flying the Decathlon, which is something I didn't really do at all in the Cessna.

 

[Jeanie]

Basically the first thing I did after getting my Private was to get my tailwheel endorsement and do some spins. After about 20 hours of learning how to land & solo in a "real" airplane, then doing dutch rolls, and leafs, I finally got to spins.

The first time I got into an intentional power off stall and entered a spin, everything seemed to happen very quickly and it was a bit disorientating. After a few spins though, you get used to it... Power to idle (if it isn't already), stick full forward and hard opposite rudder. Plane stops spinning and is in a steep nose down attitude and you pull out of it.

The thought of an inverted spin still bothers me because I haven't practiced/recovered from that.

I got really good about using my rudder pedals all the time while flying the Decathlon, which is something I didn't really do at all in the Cessna.

~~~~~if you put the stick full forward in my decathlon you'll end up in a crossover spin, which means it has crossed over to inverted. It needs to be thru neutral only. Each aircraft has it's own characteristics of spinning and unpinning even across different planes of the same make. So it's like other maneuvers, it depends. You use the correct recovery procedure in the correct order enough to get it to do what you want.

I took about 8 hrs of acro when I had 30 hrs as a student pilot. It was a huge confidence builder for me. But not everyone likes to fly in attitudes much different from straight and level. My husband hated acro -he's a straight and level kind of pilot ( although he used to spin his plane for work regularly back in the day). Unlike Ryan I haven't had a student put us in a spin yet but I do believe that teaching them to spin isn't necessary or even good for all of them. I'm still pondering it. I do know that my small amount of acro has certainly relieved some of nervousness of flying right seat as an instructor.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Probably because there is so much fear, reluctance, and inexperience with such a simple controllable flight maneuver for which recovery had been figured out by 1920.

Still, what is there really to be sad about?

No one is saying you can't go out and do spins if that is your desire. Spin all you want. But don't come here feeding a bunch of BS that spin training is the end to all of our accident woes. That is exactly what many professed back in 1946 and it simply was not true as 70 years of data have shown. Are you sad because fewer people have died since the spin requirement was dropped?

Here is another piece of data - over the last 70 years, the fatal stall spin accident rate has settled out to around 10% of all fatal accidents per year. Guess where they occur - 93% occur within 1000' AGL.

Yes, you may be able to recover from a spin in the J3 within 400' (starting at altitude which makes a difference), but most folks are flying airplanes that need a bit more than that to recover. Oh and even your J3 is not immune since 40% of all stall/spin accidents occur within 250' AGL!

 

[denverpilot]

No one is saying you can't go out and do spins if that is your desire. Spin all you want. But don't come here feeding a bunch of BS that spin training is the end to all of our accident woes.[/IMG]

I don't think anyone did that.

 

[AcroBoy]

After having flown around 400 hours in a Super Decathlon and with several experienced instructors, I never heard of full forward stick as a recovery maneuver from a spin since it can and will cross over into an inverted spin. It does not require any vigorous slamming of the stick or kicking of the rudder to recover easily from a spin.

Any acro spin training should include recognition and recovery from both upright and inverted spins, anyway.

 

[TMetzinger]

I did my CFI spin training in a Decathalon with an experienced acrobatic instructor. Power off, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder and elevator through neutral worked every time. Didn't have to slam anything, you could feel when you were flying again.

In retrospect, I think the most valuable part of the whole experience was the falling leaf manuever. My primary instructor had always emphasized using rudder to pick up a wing in a stall situation, the falling leaf really cemented that reaction, and I think that as an instructor having the "ready feet" will prevent the spin if a student gets it wrong.

 

[poadeleted20]

A popular idea, and a good one, but the base turn stall/spin isn't actually a stall/spin -- it's technically a snap roll,

A snap roll is a spin -- just in the horizontal rather than vertical axis. And in that scenario, it goes vertical very quickly.

 

[denverpilot]

Someone asked why it made me sad...

People who're teaching folks how to fly that don't know anything about a common "we're not flying anymore" maneuver. That's all.

I don't claim it adds to safety or anything like that. Just that a teacher should probably be able to teach the entire curriculum, so to speak.

Teaching incipient spin conditions will keep folks alive. Sure.

Teaching real spins shows what it looks like out the window when you've completely missed the myriad of cues leading up to the spin.

Understandably, some folks don't like overly kinetic stuff. I'm quite bored on roller coasters. You can't even get my wife on one.

Since spins aren't accelerated (this type, anyway) it's more of a "my eyeballs don't like not matching my inner ear" thing than a "beat me around the cockpit" one.

Spins are kinda like, "Wow, that's interesting!" to me, vs. "Holy ****!" for some.

A number of folks in the thread have stated that they just don't like them. I find 'em pretty tame, at least the types a typical trainer can handle.

Exiting properly helps with that. High-speed dive pull-outs are not necessary but happen if you're hamfisted about it. You can quickly make them not so tame if you're not careful, but these birds are old. High-G loads aren't smart.

I remember joking, "Hey the world's going around in a circle again. You suppose we should make that stop? What heading do you want?"

CFI and I were laughing our butts off. Fun day.

Not everyone's cup of tea, I guess.

 

[Luvrv8]

As part of my primary training we did spins in my 172H when in utility. I wanted more and hired a local airshow pilot in his Pitts for more training, inverted did take some getting used to but enjoyed it after I learned the plane will do what is asked of it.

 

[dmccormack]

I asked every one of the CFI's at my local airport, none of them would show me...... or have me recover from a spin. I was told the 172 wouldn't spin without your foot on the rudder to force it.

That is true -- a slight blast of power at high AoA with full cross control will eventually result in a spin to the left.

We never got a decent right spin in the 172.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Someone asked why it made me sad...

People who're teaching folks how to fly that don't know anything about a common "we're not flying anymore" maneuver. That's all.

I don't claim it adds to safety or anything like that. Just that a teacher should probably be able to teach the entire curriculum, so to speak.

But Spin training IS still a requirement for CFI candidates.

 

[dmccormack]

But Spin training IS still a requirement for CFI candidates.

During mt CFI training I asked my instructor to show me all the ways students would try to kill me.

He said we didn't have quite enough time, but would show me a few more common examples...

 

[whifferdill]

A snap roll is a spin -- just in the horizontal rather than vertical axis. And in that scenario, it goes vertical very quickly.

They are often described this way, but I don't feel "horizontal spin" is an accurate description for a snap. I think saying this is mostly done to give folks something to relate to. The reason I disagree is that with a spin, BOTH wings are first stalled (and stay stalled) and THEN autorotation is initiated by yawing the plane with rudder. Rotation occurs (much more slowly than a snap) because of the difference in DEPTH of stall between the two wings.

In a proper snap roll, you do NOT exceed critical AOA and stall the airplane before initiating the yaw that quickly stalls one wing only. Since one wing remains flying in the snap, aileron effects are different compared to a spin. Partial in-snap aileron increases rotation, whereas in a spin it will slow the rotation a bit. I think this is the critical distinction between a snap and spin. However, spins and snaps DO share the fact that roll is caused by an imbalance in lift between the two wings. But the dynamics of this imbalance are very different. FWIW

 

[midlifeflyer]

My plane is placarded against spins - says so right in the plane.

I begged my instructor to show me a spin anyway but he refused.

Thank goodness. Heck of a lesson it would have been for you if he did - "I know there are rules but what the heck; it's ok to disregard them any time you want."

 

[RyanShort1]

Unlike Ryan I haven't had a student put us in a spin yet but I do believe that teaching them to spin isn't necessary or even good for all of them. I'm still pondering it. I do know that my small amount of acro has certainly relieved some of nervousness of flying right seat as an instructor.

I don't go out and teach my primary guys spins, but we always have plenty of altitude for stall training, and if they get themselves into one, we deal with it. I try hard to teach them to use their feet, and typically make all of my PPL guys do falling leafs at some point.
The worst was a guy that COULD NOT connect his feet and his brain... until we botched up a power on stall. When the plane flicked out to the left, and we were looking down, rotating rapidly in a spin, I think that finally did the trick. I was glad I knew my recovery procedure, too! If / when it happens with a student, also be prepared that they may not react in a desirable manner! 'Tis best to teach 'em to not get there.

Ryan

 

[azure]

I took about 8 hrs of acro when I had 30 hrs as a student pilot. It was a huge confidence builder for me. But not everyone likes to fly in attitudes much different from straight and level. My husband hated acro -he's a straight and level kind of pilot ( although he used to spin his plane for work regularly back in the day). Unlike Ryan I haven't had a student put us in a spin yet but I do believe that teaching them to spin isn't necessary or even good for all of them. I'm still pondering it. I do know that my small amount of acro has certainly relieved some of nervousness of flying right seat as an instructor.

I think with me it's not so much that I want straight and level flying (though I do), but that I don't enjoy how quickly things go so completely un-straight and level when you spin. Part of it is that I'm very prone to optokinetic illusions, like feeling that you're moving when stopped for a train. I don't really care for steep turns either -- though I can do them without being really bothered, but I don't enjoy the maneuver and if I stare outside for too long during the turn without shifting my visual focus, I can get some fairly weird, disorienting sensations.

Stalls don't bother me at all, though, and I think they're actually quite fun. Someone mentioned the falling leaf stall which is something my primary CFI showed me how to do and I remember practicing for over an hour one time as a solo student. Wheeee! Now that was fun. I haven't done them in my Cardinal yet and I wonder if they're even possible, since the bird stalls quite decisively but can take some aggressive pulling up to get it to that point. But putting yourself into a situation where you're suddenly staring at a windshield full of whirling green? No thanks.

 

[denverpilot]

There's a trick. Ever watch an ice skater during a spin on the ice? They're not holding their head still. They focus on a target and then follow it, reacquiring it on each revolution.

That makes the world stop whirling around. Pick something near the horizon. The aircraft will block it each revolution, but you can pick up a prominent landmark on each turn and "fixate" on it. Kinda.

Then you can later practice choosing the ground point you're watching to use that "non-moving" ground point to lead the heading or target you want to recover towards. Figuring out how much to lead by is just trial and error at first. Skyhawks come out almost the instant you apply a correction since they don't like going into spins much in the first place. 150's will turn faster and come out just as easily but their rotation speed will mean a bit more leading with the eyeballs and recovery inputs.

Now if we're talking an Extra, which I doubt I will ever get to try, you might give yourself a whiplash injury trying to keep up with your ground reference, judging by cockpit videos. Whoosh!

 

[Jeanie]

Azure, how are you doing under the hood? When I started my IFR training I often flew with full blown 3 axis vertigo.

 

[nosehair]

There's a trick. Ever watch an ice skater during a spin on the ice? They're not holding their head still. They focus on a target and then follow it, reacquiring it on each revolution.

That makes the world stop whirling around.

Excellent point! I always have the student line up with a good ground reference point. I use a straight line like a power line, highway, river, etc., mostly for orientation, but also for the advanced spin trainee, ie. cfi applicants, so that they can count the revolutions and become precise on recovering in a specific number of turns and learn how much to lead.

But the main point is to focus on an outside point.

 

[azure]

Azure, how are you doing under the hood? When I started my IFR training I often flew with full blown 3 axis vertigo.

I have no problems at all under the hood. Sure it's disorienting to not have visual reference, but I'm pretty good at focusing on the instruments and suppressing all the weird inner ear stuff. I've never come close to losing it, except the first time I did partial panel I nearly got into an unusual attitude, but I caught it myself and corrected. Now I've never flown in IMC with the hood off, so I'm not sure how I'll do looking for the runway on an approach to minimums. But the problem I have with "acro" maneuvers is caused by visual stimuli, not vestibular ones. In fact, during steep turns I frequently reference the instruments, especially the AI, to keep my bank angle where it should be, and that seems to be enough to break the "spell".

 

[Jeanie]

I have no problems at all under the hood. Sure it's disorienting to not have visual reference, but I'm pretty good at focusing on the instruments and suppressing all the weird inner ear stuff. I've never come close to losing it, except the first time I did partial panel I nearly got into an unusual attitude, but I caught it myself and corrected. Now I've never flown in IMC with the hood off, so I'm not sure how I'll do looking for the runway on an approach to minimums. But the problem I have with "acro" maneuvers is caused by visual stimuli, not vestibular ones. In fact, during steep turns I frequently reference the instruments, especially the AI, to keep my bank angle where it should be, and that seems to be enough to break the "spell".

~~~~~. I have heard of pilots becoming disoriented while flying thru clouds where the changes on light and colors are dramatic and putting the hood on to stabilize themselves in those conditions but that wouldn't help with landing at minimums....

 

[AcroBoy]

The rate of rotation in an Extra in a fully developed spin is not that fast. In fact, even a light relaxation of rudder input will stop the spin, especially when going right.

Forward stick and in spin aileron will accelerate the the spin(as well as an upright snap). As was mentioned, the stick seems to feel like it reaches a step, just at the point where the critical AOA is exceeded, and then the stick force drops off as the wing stalls.

However, it seems hard to appreciate the step until you become comfortable with spin recovery. Well before this the airplane becomes mushy like the stick is less effective.

Anyway, it takes a lot to stall and spin a Cessna unintentionally.
E

 

[poadeleted20]

They are often described this way, but I don't feel "horizontal spin" is an accurate description for a snap. I think saying this is mostly done to give folks something to relate to. The reason I disagree is that with a spin, BOTH wings are first stalled (and stay stalled) and THEN autorotation is initiated by yawing the plane with rudder. Rotation occurs (much more slowly than a snap) because of the difference in DEPTH of stall between the two wings.

In a proper snap roll, you do NOT exceed critical AOA and stall the airplane before initiating the yaw that quickly stalls one wing only. Since one wing remains flying in the snap, aileron effects are different compared to a spin. Partial in-snap aileron increases rotation, whereas in a spin it will slow the rotation a bit. I think this is the critical distinction between a snap and spin. However, spins and snaps DO share the fact that roll is caused by an imbalance in lift between the two wings. But the dynamics of this imbalance are very different. FWIW

Given that description, I still disagree -- those base-to-final skidded-turn stalls are real spins with both wings stalled, not the snap roll you describe with only one wing stalled. Perhaps you are thinking of a crossed-control slipped-turn "over the top" stall, which isn't nearly as lethal because the nose is slicing up away from the ground (giving you more time and altitude to recover) rather than down into the ground.

 

[poadeleted20]

Anyway, it takes a lot to stall and spin a Cessna unintentionally.

...and yet, folks have been doing it for over half a century, and continue to do so today, often with fatal results.

 

[AEROBAT]

The rate of rotation in an Extra in a fully developed spin is not that fast. In fact, even a light relaxation of rudder input will stop the spin, especially when going right.

Forward stick and in spin aileron will accelerate the the spin(as well as an upright snap). As was mentioned, the stick seems to feel like it reaches a step, just at the point where the critical AOA is exceeded, and then the stick force drops off as the wing stalls.

However, it seems hard to appreciate the step until you become comfortable with spin recovery. Well before this the airplane becomes mushy like the stick is less effective.

Anyway, it takes a lot to stall and spin a Cessna unintentionally.
E

When I did my private license the school was using 172's for training and the 172 can be hard to get to actually spin when solo. You had to hold the spin input in for at least one rotation. The 150 makes a better plane for spin training. They still teach spin recover for private pilots in Canada, even recreational licence pilots.

 

[whifferdill]

Given that description, I still disagree -- those base-to-final skidded-turn stalls are real spins with both wings stalled, not the snap roll you describe with only one wing stalled. Perhaps you are thinking of a crossed-control slipped-turn "over the top" stall, which isn't nearly as lethal because the nose is slicing up away from the ground (giving you more time and altitude to recover) rather than down into the ground.

I never said a skidded base-to-final turn (with both wings stalled as you describe) was a snap roll. I wasn't thinking of anything other than my disagreement with your simple statement that a snap is simply a horizontal spin. I think they are two different things just like a snap roll and an aileron roll are two different things. You could say a spin is to a snap roll as a snap is to an aileron roll. All are different, and progression goes from producing roll with both wings stalled to no wings stalled.

I doubt many people care, but "horizontal spin" gets thrown around a lot, and for the folks who might care, they might be interested in the sublety. Also, for the neophyte acro pilot, thinking of a snap as a horizontal spin may inhibit their ability to learn to do a good snap, since they will likely think they have to stall the airplane first (many do), which will result in a very slow, energy killing, "wallowing flop" of a maneuver...or "buried" snap as we might say.

 

[poadeleted20]

I never said a skidded base-to-final turn (with both wings stalled as you describe) was a snap roll.

No, thomascannon did, and it was to that statement I was responding.

 

[brien23]

So what airplanes are approved for spins?

 

[poadeleted20]

So what airplanes are approved for spins?

Quite a few, but as a percentage of the active primary training fleet, a lot fewer than when I started in the late 60's.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Anyway, it takes a lot to stall and spin a Cessna unintentionally.

Depends on the Cessna. Some models will spin all on their own quite easily.

 

[Doggtyred]

Spin entry and recovery should be required and on the checkride for a private pilot's license (much the same as flying in actual IMC should be required for an instrument rating). Really, it's just an "unusual attitude." They're a little unnerving maybe the first few times, but after that they're really a lot of fun and a huge confidence builder. More than anything, they'll keep you from ever spinning by accident.

Why let the "base to final skidding turn" continue to kill people?

It's unrecoverable at that altitude and people were getting killed in practice spins.

 

[Flyparrothead]

I was shown a spin when I was working on my PP. Now, most instructors won't show a spin. Spins are no big deal once you understand the mechanics behind them, and you are in the right category kind of a/c.

 

[RoscoeT]

It's unrecoverable at that altitude and people were getting killed in practice spins.

They're only unrecoverable at that altitude, because most pilots who find themselves in a spin at pattern altitudes have no idea what the hell happened, or what is now happening. They don't instantly recognize the situation, and don't have the muscle memory to recover.

I did a one-turn spin in the J-3 yesterday and from the point where the plane stalled to the point where I pulled level was a 300' difference. A CFI with a lot of spin experience COULD recover a student's incipient spin entry during the base-to-final turn. As I mentioned before, you don't have to sit there with your head up your ass waiting for the spin to develop. But if you're on your own, and you're stall/spinning in the pattern, then you likely don't have the spin experience and skill to make a timely recovery in the first place. That doesn't mean that all spins in the pattern have to be deadly, thus invalidating spin training. It's all a matter of skill and experience. Attaining these skills will make the infamous base-to-final spin more of a hypothetical situation. Anybody who feels a spin entry is unrecoverable from pattern altitudes or less does not have much spin experience.

Every student pilot would definitely benefit from spin training, but there are all sorts of issues associated with making it a requirement of the license. The main factor associated with practice spin deaths is CFI experience (or non experience). Therein lies the problem.

 

[poadeleted20]

They're only unrecoverable at that altitude, because most pilots who find themselves in a spin at pattern altitudes have no idea what the hell happened, or what is now happening. They don't instantly recognize the situation, and don't have the muscle memory to recover.

If you spin out of the base-final turn, all the muscle memory in the world won't save you -- there's not enough altitude below you to do it. The only thing that prevents deaths from the base-final skidded-turn stall is preventing the stall, not knowing how to recover once it happens. That's why the FAA is pushing stall/spin prevention so hard. And the fact that with practice you were able to limit altitude loss in a spin recovery in a J-3 just isn't relevant, since pretty much nobody's using J-3's as primary trainers these days and the planes that are being used won't recover with that little altitude loss.

Also, I don't think it's that instructors "won't" teach spins to those interested, but rather that fewer and fewer primary training planes are spin-approved. Even the ones that are usually have a "no spins" rule from the FBO/school because those planes are also used for instrument training and they don't want the gyros trashed. Flight schools today simply can't afford to keep one spin-approved plane on the line just for that purpose as we did 30+ years ago when we had 12 primary trainers and a hundred students and could take the gyros out of one just for that purpose.