Special VFR clearance - first time

[onwards]

So flew back from E45 to CCR early this morning (by the way, I was so mesmerized by the beauty of the scenery at E45 I sort of forgot to land yesterday, it was kinda funny).

Anyway, a bit after crossing over SCK en route Norcal tells me Concord is covered and I will have to ask for IFR or special VFR clearance. Oops. OK. So I ask back if it's still safe to land, and the controller says "well, they'll update the weather in the next 10 minutes, I'll let you know". We're 35nm out at this point.

I tune it to CCR WX and indeed, 6m visibility but 800ft overcast. Not that I really need to listen - the white sheet is pretty obvious. But it doesn't stretch fully over the delta, and you can easily duck under it coming from the east.

So this led to my first ever experience with requesting and receiving special VFR clearance. 10m later Norcal did contact back and transferred me to Travis; Travis quickly handed me off to Concord Tower with my request, which Concord granted. As my first experience with it, I noticed that they asked me for more information, and more contact, than on a normal approach. Most interestingly, I was asked to "follow the ILA" which luckily I remembered from the one time I did a full instrument approach with an instructor, at least in the sense of knowing where it was (187) and tracking to it.

Ducked under the clouds over the delta right past Pittsburgh. Turned the hill lining up on runway 19 but a lot lower than usual, and flew the last 3-4 miles or so at about 400ft above ground until I intercepted the glide slope and just went down from there. Fairly undramatic all around, but very fun for me.

Tower asked me to verify conditions once I touched down - another first - and then my pax made the remark that made me giggle: "sort of felt like that time we went to Shelter Cove, no?". Heh.

 

[poadeleted20]

Y'all be careful with this -- a SVFR clearance is not a waiver from the minimum altitudes in 91.119, only the minimum cloud clearance distances in 91.155. If you had to descend to 400 AGL in order to stay below the clouds that far out, you would have been legal only over sparsely popluated terrain or open water, and looking at the sectional for the approach to CCR from the north on the LDA, it's not clear whether that would be true or not once you crossed the Suisun Bay coastline southbound.

 

[onwards]

Y'all be careful with this -- a SVFR clearance is not a waiver from the minimum altitudes in 91.119, only the minimum cloud clearance distances in 91.155. If you had to descend to 400 AGL in order to stay below the clouds that far out, you would have been legal only over sparsely popluated terrain or open water, and looking at the sectional for the approach to CCR from the north on the LDA, it's not clear whether that would be true or not once you crossed the Suisun Bay coastline southbound.

It is that way out here. By the time you enter something that isn't open water or sparsely populated from that direction, you are on the glide slope and NEED to be 400ft above ground and descending. You come in that way every single time when you do pattern work for 19R, too, especially if (as happens often enough) you are asked for extended downwind due to other traffic.

 

[poadeleted20]

It is that way out here. By the time you enter something that isn't open water or sparsely populated from that direction, you are on the glide slope and NEED to be 400ft above ground and descending. You come in that way every single time when you do pattern work for 19R, too, especially if (as happens often enough) you are asked for extended downwind due to other traffic.

Good. Just remember that if you are ever considering SVFR into CCR from the south.

 

[BillTIZ]

That's how SVFR works, no other IFR traffic in the area while you get into the airport visually.

"Follow the ILA"? I see an LDA approach, if you knew the frequency or had the IAP information, great. If not I would have just said, I don't have the information, I'm in bound from the east, you were squawking, they knew where you were. And then I would just keep my eyes peeled for those 800ft towers in the area.

 

[onwards]

Good. Just remember that if you are ever considering SVFR into CCR from the south.

Oh yes... don't worry, I won't be trying THAT trick, much rather finish getting IFR rated and do it properly even today I had the choice of coming in from the north and rounding into CCR on the ILA, or ducking in just a bit west and south of the hills over the northern part of mt. Diablo. The latter would have been a rule violation, for sure. But it would also be devoid of common sense to try it, to be honest, when there is plenty of open space from the north to come in from.

 

[onwards]

That's how SVFR works, no other IFR traffic in the area while you get into the airport visually.

"Follow the ILA"? I see an LDA approach, if you knew the frequency or had the IAP information, great. If not I would have just said, I don't have the information, I'm in bound from the east, you were squawking, they knew where you were. And then I would just keep my eyes peeled for those 800ft towers in the area.

Well, that's what he said... I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that he wanted me to intercept 187 and come straight in which is the GPS instrument approach (or at least so I think, based on my understanding from that one lesson).

EDIT: oh, and no such towers... it's my home base, I do know all the obstacles fairly well.

 

[poadeleted20]

Well, that's what he said... I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that he wanted me to intercept 187 and come straight in which is the GPS instrument approach (or at least so I think, based on my understanding from that one lesson).

I suspect he said LDA but you misheard -- AM radios aren't perfect. BTW, the LDA is a 181 course, and that 6-degree variation from the runway direction is why it's an LDA rather than a LOC. I doubt that would make much difference in what you did, but there it is for whatever it's worth.

EDIT: oh, and no such towers... it's my home base, I do know all the obstacles fairly well.

Being extremely familiar with the area including obstructions/terrain is critical to safe SVFR operations, especially when it's the vis rather than the ceiling which is forcing the SVFR choice. I know a lot of people who'll take SVFR in/out of their home 'drome but nowhere else.

 

[BillTIZ]

Well, that's what he said... I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that he wanted me to intercept 187 and come straight in which is the GPS instrument approach (or at least so I think, based on my understanding from that one lesson).

EDIT: oh, and no such towers... it's my home base, I do know all the obstacles fairly well.

Roger on knowing the local area and towers. There is a 729' tower near the VOR. Still not sure what was meant by ILA or "187". It is best to only plan SVFR on places you know. Not being local, if the aircraft equipment allowed, I'd pick up an IFR for the LDA approach.

Yes 187, is the inbound heading on the GPS approach.

 

[onwards]

Being extremely familiar with the area including obstructions/terrain is critical to safe SVFR operations, especially when it's the vis rather than the ceiling which is forcing the SVFR choice. I know a lot of people who'll take SVFR in/out of their home 'drome but nowhere else.

Yeah. I wouldn't have tried it anywhere I haven't been before enough to visualize in my head entirely. But around CCR I can fly pretty much blind-folded it was neat to actually go through it once, though. Never happened before!

 

[onwards]

Roger on knowing the local area and towers. There is a 729' tower near the VOR. Still not sure what was meant by ILA or "187". It is best to only plan SVFR on places you know. Not being local, if the aircraft equipment allowed, I'd pick up an IFR for the LDA approach.

Yes 187, is the inbound heading on the GPS approach.

729 tower next to the VOR? I am trying really hard to figure out what you are referring to, but I can't... there is a hill with a small water thingy jutting out of it at about that altitude a couple hundred feet to the east of the VOR... is that what you mean? it's a fantastic reference point for lining up for different runways, used through training all the time.

 

[onwards]

That's how SVFR works, no other IFR traffic in the area while you get into the airport visually.

By the way, I did not realize that... so if there was someone else in the are on an IFR plan, they would not grant the clearance? is it only limited to going in and out of that airport or any IFR flight going through its air space?

 

[N801BH]

SVFR is in the rule book to save your bacon... In this case you utilized it and experienced a safe and uneventful landing and good memories..... Chalk it up to living in 'hog heaven' .

Just had to add the pork joke ya know.

Ben.

Ps. I too only exercise the SVFR option in a familiar location.

 

[BillTIZ]

729 tower next to the VOR? I am trying really hard to figure out what you are referring to, but I can't... there is a hill with a small water thingy jutting out of it at about that altitude a couple hundred feet to the east of the VOR... is that what you mean? it's a fantastic reference point for lining up for different runways, used through training all the time.

I'm looking at the IAP for the LDA. There is a "towered" obstruction marked at 729' next to the VOR and Fan Marker. On my iPad, I cannot zoom in tight enough on the VFR chart to see it.

 

[BillTIZ]

By the way, I did not realize that... so if there was someone else in the are on an IFR plan, they would not grant the clearance? is it only limited to going in and out of that airport or any IFR flight going through its air space?

If someone was coming in IFR, they would have denied the SVFR for you and kept you outside the Class D until he landed. If you had already received the SVFR, the IFR would have to wait until you were on the ground or cancel the SVFR before they could start the approach.

I've only used SVFR at locations where we had an FSS on the field. But those were the days when you had a FSS station almost every 50 to 100 miles with DF Approach capability.

Ever fly a DF approach called by the FSS specialist?

 

[onwards]

I'm looking at the IAP for the LDA. There is a "towered" obstruction marked at 729' next to the VOR and Fan Marker. On my iPad, I cannot zoom in tight enough on the VFR chart to see it.

I see. It must be that water tower, then, sitting on top of that hill. Love that tower, you can always find your way in the pattern even if you came in all weird by pointing the nose at it

 

[onwards]

If someone was coming in IFR, they would have denied the SVFR for you and kept you outside the Class D until he landed. If you had already received the SVFR, the IFR would have to wait until you were on the ground or cancel the SVFR before they could start the approach.

Ever fly a DF approach called by the FSS specialist?

Thanks for the elaboration, new knowledge gained!

I'm not sure I even understand that question... let alone be able to answer it!

EDIT: NOW something else makes sense; there was a Cirrus on the ground waiting to take off when I came in, and I kept wondering why they didn't let him as he had plenty of room to get out before I hit 2-mile final. Those things are much faster than the PA28 I was flying.

But I do know he was on an IFR plan, based on his last exchange with tower after I landed. So he had to wait basically until I came in?

 

[Anymouse]

Ever fly a DF approach called by the FSS specialist?

Didn't the last of the DF equipment finally get decommissioned a year or two ago??

(Did a practice DF steer as a student way back when.)

 

[poadeleted20]

By the way, I did not realize that... so if there was someone else in the are on an IFR plan, they would not grant the clearance? is it only limited to going in and out of that airport or any IFR flight going through its air space?

That's sort of true. There are ways they can provide separation between SVFR and IFR traffic within the D-space, but it relies on Tower having the SVFR and IFR traffic in sight and being able to confirm their paths won't cross. For example, they might be able to release a southbound IFR departure once they see you on final for 19 as long as you're still far enough out that runway separation won't be compromised.

 

[BillTIZ]

Thanks for the elaboration, new knowledge gained!

I'm not sure I even understand that question... let alone be able to answer it!

EDIT: NOW something else makes sense; there was a Cirrus on the ground waiting to take off when I came in, and I kept wondering why they didn't let him as he had plenty of room to get out before I hit 2-mile final. Those things are much faster than the PA28 I was flying.

But I do know he was on an IFR plan, based on his last exchange with tower after I landed. So he had to wait basically until I came in?

SVFR is essentially an IFR clearance. You may also need a SVFR anywhere Class E surface area at airports with no tower exists.

DF, Direction Finding, an antiquated system where the ground operator can determine your radial from the airport based on a directional strobe when you key your mic. The ground operator through the use of various headings and repeated transmissions from the aircraft can estimate your distance and azimuth, then provide headings to fly to get to the airport, much like an ADF approach.

 

[BillTIZ]

Didn't the last of the DF equipment finally get decommissioned a year or two ago??

(Did a practice DF steer as a student way back when.)

I think so. They were the norm for instructors to have their private pilot students complete a night DF under the hood just before their check ride. At least where I went to flight school.

 

[onwards]

SVFR is essentially an IFR clearance. You may also need a SVFR anywhere Class E surface area at airports with no tower exists.

Ha. The way it was explained to me in training was this: "SVFR is basically a way to let you fly in controlled airspace as if you were flying in class G; that is, nothing you want to do regularly, but if you must, don't be afraid to use it". Is this not a fair way of putting it?

 

[poadeleted20]

Ha. The way it was explained to me in training was this: "SVFR is basically a way to let you fly in controlled airspace as if you were flying in class G; that is, nothing you want to do regularly, but if you must, don't be afraid to use it". Is this not a fair way of putting it?

I think the first part is fairly accurate, but I'm not sure the last part fully conveys the significantly increased risk of operating on a "see and avoid" basis with the ground and obstructions at low altitude in lousy weather conditions. I prefer to describe it as "legalized scud-running," which I think tends to encourage a more cautious approach to using it.

 

[jesse]

Anyway, a bit after crossing over SCK en route Norcal tells me Concord is covered and I will have to ask for IFR or special VFR clearance.

Interesting. You won't generally hear a controller suggest special VFR. Did they?

Generally they'll just state conditions and ask for your intentions.

 

[bobmrg]

If someone was coming in IFR, they would have denied the SVFR for you and kept you outside the Class D until he landed. If you had already received the SVFR, the IFR would have to wait until you were on the ground or cancel the SVFR before they could start the approach.

I've only used SVFR at locations where we had an FSS on the field. But those were the days when you had a FSS station almost every 50 to 100 miles with DF Approach capability.

Ever fly a DF approach called by the FSS specialist?

There are now exactly three airports in the lower 48 that have on-field flight service stations; of those three, only at Tamiami, FL can the FSS person advise you of traffic in the pattern. I too long for the old days.

Bob Gardner

 

[onwards]

Interesting. You won't generally hear a controller suggest special VFR. Did they?

Generally they'll just state conditions and ask for your intentions.

Yes, he did suggest it. I probably wouldn't have thought of it, otherwise.

EDIT: I think it's because the weather was really nice - just that bit of fog/clouds that was already in the process of clearing out, as it does every day by late morning.

 

[Mike I]

Interesting. You won't generally hear a controller suggest special VFR. Did they?

Generally they'll just state conditions and ask for your intentions.

I've always heard that controllers may not suggest, or even hint at requesting Special VFR clearance. I couldn't find anything in 7110.65T about that though...perhaps someone knows better?

Found in 7110.10U, many times it states "At pilot's request..." "Only when requested by pilot...", so perhaps that's it?

 

[gkainz]

I've heard stories that a particular tower in our area once may have said "state intentions" after notifying a plane of certain weather conditions... and then may have hinted a little with "anything special we can do for you?" ...

 

[poadeleted20]

I've always heard that controllers may not suggest, or even hint at requesting Special VFR clearance. I couldn't find anything in 7110.65T about that though...perhaps someone knows better?

Found in 7110.10U, many times it states "At pilot's request..." "Only when requested by pilot...", so perhaps that's it?

You may be thinking of a contact approach, which controllers are specifically enjoined from suggesting.

 

[onwards]

Well, then it was awfully nice of him to do so, wasn't it? I think (and don't hang on every word here, I can't recall exactly) that what he said was "the weather is IFR, you'll need to ask for IFR or special VFR clearance to go through". Isn't there some way to pull down the ATC feed and listen to it? I could probably find it if I knew how to look.

 

[NoHeat]

SVFR is in the rule book to save your bacon.

It's often mentioned as a non-routine way to let a VFR pilot save his hide when in a non-routine risky situation. However, I can think of a routine use for it:

My airport is in class G, and it lies under the outer shelf of class C. If I wanted to get from my airport to the charlie airport that's just seven miles away, when clouds are at say 800 AGL, I could make that routine flight with very little risk by using SVFR.

 

[thomascannon]

Here's a somewhat on topic question: Why is it on sectionals that Class B airspace is always defined as "No SVFR" areas, but while in Class B you only need a mile of visibility and to be "clear of clouds" -- if that isn't Special VFR I don't know what is.

My guess is that SVFR at night requires an IFR rating in an IFR rated airplane -- so it's giving an IFR pilot an option that no IFR rated pilot would ever actually want? Or if they did, they'd ask for a contact approach.

Just one of those oddities that probably exists for a reason, but I haven't ever figured out what the reason might be.

 

[pericynthion]

VFR in Class B requires 3 miles visibility and clear of clouds. 1 mile is not ok without SVFR. Not all Class B airports prohibit SVFR (just most of them).

 

[thomascannon]

Oh? Well then never mind

 

[Anymouse]

I've always heard that controllers may not suggest, or even hint at requesting Special VFR clearance. I couldn't find anything in 7110.65T about that though...perhaps someone knows better?

Found in 7110.10U, many times it states "At pilot's request..." "Only when requested by pilot...", so perhaps that's it?

It's been many moons since I was a controller, but I still remember that controllers are specifically not allowed to solicit SFVR. This is one of the reasons why you'll hear, "Say intentions" when the controller is trying to help you out.

 

[Henning]

Well, then it was awfully nice of him to do so, wasn't it? I think (and don't hang on every word here, I can't recall exactly) that what he said was "the weather is IFR, you'll need to ask for IFR or special VFR clearance to go through". Isn't there some way to pull down the ATC feed and listen to it? I could probably find it if I knew how to look.

I typically get good service from ATC as well. A lot of times I can get them to give me a hint even if they can't directly say something. One funny exchange with SoCal as I'm coming on with the controller who's going to take me into the LA-B. "69SA State intended transition through the LA Class B" "I'm easy, what works best for you?" "Ok, how about direct LGB at or above 2500'?" "How about Shoreline at 3500." "Shoreline at 3500 it is."

Same as on a job interview. "What kind of paywould you want?" "Want? I want a million a year with medical and stock options. Why what are you offering?"

 

[roncachamp]

That's how SVFR works, no other IFR traffic in the area while you get into the airport visually.

That's not correct, and it implies SVFR operations have priority over IFR operations. It's actually the opposite, SVFR flights may be approved only if arriving and departing IFR aircraft are not delayed. If SVFR aircraft can be separated from IFR operations then both may proceed.

 

[flyingron]

Here's a somewhat on topic question: Why is it on sectionals that Class B airspace is always defined as "No SVFR" areas, but while in Class B you only need a mile of visibility and to be "clear of clouds" -- if that isn't Special VFR I don't know what is.

It's not always NO SVFR for class B. Many of them, but not all.

Class B gets to have clear of clouds because all aircraft are participating in positive separation.

 

[roncachamp]

It's been many moons since I was a controller, but I still remember that controllers are specifically not allowed to solicit SFVR. This is one of the reasons why you'll hear, "Say intentions" when the controller is trying to help you out.

If there was ever a prohibition on suggesting SVFR, like there is for suggesting a contact approach, it was withdrawn more than 28 years ago.

 

[jesse]

If there was ever a prohibition on suggesting SVFR, like there is for suggesting a contact approach, it was withdrawn more than 28 years ago.

Understandable. I've heard it many times, and I've never heard a controller suggest SVFR. It must be an old-wives tail.