Special Flight Permit

BGF_Yankee

BGF_Yankee

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BGF_Yankee
Simple question...what situations would preclude an aircraft that is out of annual from having a ferry permit issued?
 
Preclude? Really could be anything. They evaluate the situation and if repair facilities for airworthiness are “available” on the field it sits on, folks have reported they simply said “no, get it fixed there” in some cases.

In others, they’ve let the thing fly as long as it went nowhere near populated areas or dense traffic airspace.

Really depends on the specifics. I’ve gotten them for traversing a Class B for a transponder out and then had a requirement to call the controlling agency and coordinate the flight. Obviously we could have gotten it fixed where it sat, but we wanted to return to the shop that was working the problem originally and said so in our request. Granted.

Other folks have had airplanes that were regularly flown and then went out of annual and were told “no, just get it inspected there”.

From this “experience” watching a few of these, they seem to take into account actual “need” as well as the “will it fall on a bus full of schoolchildren and make us look bad on TV” about equally. :)
 
Having been thru this with a damaged airplane (not out of annual) the ferry pilot (who was also an A&P) examined the airplane and determined it was safely flyable. Got the ferry permit, flew it to the repair station. Talking to the pilot, he commented that he'd flown airplanes in much worse shape than mine.

You can look up the details for a ferry permit on the FAA website:

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/airworthiness_certification/sp_awcert/sp_flt_permit/
 
I think this is a question best answered by the FSDO you're requesting the permit from. It seems that the ASIs have some discretion on what they will grant a permit for.

I've gotten several permits from various FSDOS for out of annual airplanes and more substantially damaged planes and not once have I been hassled about it or told to get it fixed on site when there is maintenance available. I also am aware of a few other planes that the FSDO wasn't interested in granting a permit for, due to the condition they were in.

The biggest thing is you have to call the FSDO that the airplane is currently in, in order to get the permit.
 
mondtster said:
I think this is a question best answered by the FSDO you're requesting the permit from. It seems that the ASIs have some discretion on what they will grant a permit for.
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They definitely do. It doesn’t hurt to think a bit about how the request is made and shows a reasonable level of care for the schoolbus full of nuns and children theoretically below the flight path, too. And just plain being nice about the request.

I can’t prove it but I know of someone who had one denied and he was a constant pain in the butt to local inspectors and FAA staff. They of course are experts at wording denials in bureacratese and “safety” concerns, but to this day I’m convinced they just found it an easy way to poke back at the idiot who was constantly in their faces about this little thing or that little thing. :)

There’s a lot of “stuff” I can find wrong to say about how FAA does certain things, but I never would dream of making personal to the point THAT guy did. Whoever processed that request, remembered, if you ask me.

The converse of this is, if you’re not usually doing these things, kinda ask around the airport and find the mechanic who’s requests don’t get summarily denied and says, “Sure they’ll solve that, they’ve approved that for me before...” a good sign you didn’t ask their local troublemaker problem-child to send them the form.

Hahahahaha. Not kidding. Truly not kidding. Make sure you’re not using the one mechanic who is their largest PITA. :)
 
I always thought it just took an A&P willing to stick his or her neck out and say that your airplane was safe to fly to the repair station.
 
steingar said:
I always thought it just took an A&P willing to stick his or her neck out and say that your airplane was safe to fly to the repair station.
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That ,,, want to jump into the liability loop?
 
I got one a few months back for an out-of-annual airplane that I had to leave AOG about 800 miles from home due to a mx issue (cylinder). No mx on the field (A&P that did the cylinder had to travel). FSDO was surprisingly easy in granting a permit to fly it the 800 miles home out of annual (though only out a couple of weeks). I even asked for and received permission to fly it at night and IFR (after proving it had current pitot/static inspections). It was really a non-event, and I was told this particular FSDO was difficult...
 
A chap on the airpark let his annual run out. I refused to annual his plane due to the many illegal mods he has installed. I did help him get a ferry permit and he flew it 600 miles to his Summer home. The FSDO never batted an eye over the distance involved, nor the many places closer for an annual.
 
customer wanted his annual done by some one else, let it run out of annual, then wanted me to sign the ferry permit..

I just handed it back to him, and laughed. YGTBSM, then he changed his mind and asked me to do it, I told him no.
 
steingar said:
I always thought it just took an A&P willing to stick his or her neck out and say that your airplane was safe to fly to the repair station.
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What if there's a repair station located where it sits right now?
 
MauleSkinner said:
It's just good business to refuse a customer who doesn't want to give you his business.
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He wouldn't let the customer ferry the plane elsewhere to have the work done, but he wouldn't take the job himself, thereby putting the customer in a bind. I don't think that's the kind of reputation I would want to cultivate.
 
BGF_Yankee said:
Simple question...what situations would preclude an aircraft that is out of annual from having a ferry permit issued?
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The FSDO knows something about the airplane in question....

I’ve seen such cases where the airplane had a ‘reputation’ and the FSDO pretty much to the shop up front that it was going to require a lot of effort on their part before they would entertain a ferry permit.
 
Palmpilot said:
He wouldn't let the customer ferry the plane elsewhere to have the work done, but he wouldn't take the job himself, thereby putting the customer in a bind. I don't think that's the kind of reputation I would want to cultivate.
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Read his post. It sounds like the relationship had already soured. Not much to cultivate when the client tells you is going to use someone else and then has to come back and eat crow because he screwed up.
 
Palmpilot said:
He wouldn't let the customer ferry the plane elsewhere to have the work done, but he wouldn't take the job himself, thereby putting the customer in a bind. I don't think that's the kind of reputation I would want to cultivate.
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"Wouldn't let" is too strong, since the customer could get someone else to sign the ferry permit.

OTOH, this is the type of situation where I wouldn't be surprised if the FSDO refused to issue a ferry permit, when the only reason to fly the plane somewhere else is to have someone else do the annual, when the facilities to do it are available on field. My annual last year I let the local shop do my annual rather than go through that argument with the FSDO to fly it down to KRUT. I probably should have tried, since the annual ended up costing about three times as much as it would have at my preferred shop, entirely because the mechanic is a putzer.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Read his post. It sounds like the relationship had already soured. Not much to cultivate when the client tells you is going to use someone else and then has to come back and eat crow because he screwed up.
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And the client is not going to tell anyone else what happened?

I just don't think that revenge is a sound business model.
 
azure said:
"Wouldn't let" is too strong, since the customer could get someone else to sign the ferry permit.

OTOH, this is the type of situation where I wouldn't be surprised if the FSDO refused to issue a ferry permit, when the only reason to fly the plane somewhere else is to have someone else do the annual, when the facilities to do it are available on field. My annual last year I let the local shop do my annual rather than go through that argument with the FSDO to fly it down to KRUT. I probably should have tried, since the annual ended up costing about three times as much as it would have at my preferred shop, entirely because the mechanic is a putzer.
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If the FSDO refused to issue the ferry permit, that would make possibility of getting another mechanic to sign it entirely theoretical.
 
MauleSkinner said:
So you're saying that as an A&P he should sign a ferry permit stating that an airplane with known illegal mods is airworthy? THAT sounds like bad business to me.
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No, I'm talking about the refusal to do the annual.
 
Palmpilot said:
He wouldn't let the customer ferry the plane elsewhere to have the work done, but he wouldn't take the job himself, thereby putting the customer in a bind. I don't think that's the kind of reputation I would want to cultivate.
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I'd like to think most people would see that the "reputation" comes from a questionable source.

I also think "he wouldn't sign off the ferry permit just so he could charge me for the annual" seems like a worse reputation to have.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
I'd like to think most people would see that the "reputation" comes from a questionable source.
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1. There's not enough information in Tom's post to conclude that the guy was a questionable source.

2. Tom publicly posted that he refused to do the annual, and the reason he gave affects his reputation regardless of anything the customer might say.
 
Palmpilot said:
1. There's not enough information in Tom's post to conclude that the guy was a questionable source.

2. Tom publicly posted that he refused to do the annual, and the reason he gave affects his reputation regardless of anything the customer might say.
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In my personal experience, I've never seen a case where a customer relationship has gotten to the point where they take their business elsewhere that getting that business back is worth the hassle and subsequent reputation damage. YMMV.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Why wouldn't the owner have his preferred shop come and sign off the ferry permit?
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I suppose he probably ended up doing that, at some expense. It still seems vindictive to refuse to do business with someone solely because they were going to do business with someone else. Businesses don't own their customers.
 
MauleSkinner said:
In my personal experience, I've never seen a case where a customer relationship has gotten to the point where they take their business elsewhere that getting that business back is worth the hassle and subsequent reputation damage. YMMV.
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All I have to go on is what Tom wrote. Everything else is speculation.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Like the damage you're speculating will happen to Tom's reputation? ;)
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I was answering speculations with speculations. Seems fair to me. :)

"Vindictive," on the other hand, was an opinion. YMMV.
 
Palmpilot said:
I was answering speculations with speculations. Seems fair to me. :)

"Vindictive," on the other hand, was an opinion. YMMV.
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What speculation were you answering with your speculation about damage to his reputation?
 
When my clients have decided to "go another direction" I make sure their A/R is current and ask how many transition hours they would like. Transition begins once the the A/R is 0 and the transition time is prepaid. Usually they are trying to cheap out, so if the new resource comes up to speed quicker than expected I refund the unused transition time.

If Tom's customer doesn't value his expertise for an annual, why would they want him to pencil whip a ferry permit? That just doesn't sound right.
 
Palmpilot said:
If the FSDO refused to issue the ferry permit, that would make possibility of getting another mechanic to sign it entirely theoretical.
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Of course. There was an implied "assuming the FSDO allows the ferry permit at all" in my first paragraph, in light of the second.
 
MauleSkinner said:
What speculation were you answering with your speculation about damage to his reputation?
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"It's just good business to refuse a customer who doesn't want to give you his business."
 
Palmpilot said:
I just don't think that revenge is a sound business model.
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Maybe he knew the plane and owner well enough and made a sound business decision to stay out of the liability loop. Your assumption that Tom did this out of revenge doesn’t hold much water IMHO. -Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Maybe he knew the plane and owner well enough and made a sound business decision to stay out of the liability loop. Your assumption that Tom did this out of revenge doesn’t hold much water IMHO. -Skip
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I can only go by what he wrote.
 
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