Special Flight Permit

Tom-D said:
customer wanted his annual done by some one else, let it run out of annual, then wanted me to sign the ferry permit..

I just handed it back to him, and laughed. YGTBSM, then he changed his mind and asked me to do it, I told him no.
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Since when can you sign one anyway? The most you could do is to make and sign the maintenance entry that the plane is safe for its intended flight. The FSDO signs and issues the permit.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Since when can you sign one anyway? The most you could do is to make and sign the maintenance entry that the plane is safe for its intended flight. The FSDO signs and issues the permit.
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Semantics.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Since when can you sign one anyway?
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When I place my name where it say it's safe to operate this POS, And OBTW, it is the pilot who says it is safe to fly,,,, FAR 91.3, or did you forget that.
 
Tom-D said:
When I place my name where it say it's safe to operate this POS, And OBTW, it is the pilot who says it is safe to fly,,,, FAR 91.3, or did you forget that.
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You really don’t understand the process do you? Your log entry is not the SFP.
 
SkyDog58 said:
You really don’t understand the process do you? Your log entry is not the SFP.
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Do you really believe part 91 no longer applies?
Yer too funny.
 
Tom-D said:
When I place my name where it say it's safe to operate this POS, And OBTW, it is the pilot who says it is safe to fly,,,, FAR 91.3, or did you forget that.
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Tom-D said:
Do you really believe part 91 no longer applies?
Yer too funny.
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Well, in a way it does not apply. Not in the way you think it does. You cited 91.3 in reference to safe to fly. But that is not where that verbiage exists if you read it. But 91.7 states that... and more.

“91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.”

“91.7 Civil aircraft airworthiness.
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.
(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.”

Pay particular attention to 91.7(a) and think about why you need a SFP. You need it because the plane is not in an airworthy condition. And while 91.7(b) states that the pilot is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight, it also says more. It says the pilot must discontinue the flight if unairworthy conditions occur. This also means that you cannot even begin a flight if unairworthy.

So how then is an unairworthy plane capable of being flown? Only if the A&P or pilot says so?? NO! Only if the FAA says so via a SFP. And where is this authority? It’s in 21.197.

“21.197 Special flight permits.
(a) A special flight permit may be issued for an aircraft that may not currently meet applicable airworthiness requirements but is capable of safe flight, for the following purposes:
(1) Flying the aircraft to a base where repairs, alterations, or maintenance are to be performed, or to a point of storage.”

Now in this part, it mentions that the aircraft though unairworthy, can be flown under a SFP if it is capable of safe flight. But this safe for flight determination is not a PIC one in this context but a determination of the FAA or an A&P if the FAA ASI decides to delegate it. But even if the A&P determines that the plane can be safely flown, it is still the FAA that issues the SFP.

Now I am not diminishing the role of the mechanic in this process as it is a very important part of it. But making that log entry is not the same as issuing or signing the permit.
 
Palmpilot said:
He wouldn't let the customer ferry the plane elsewhere to have the work done, but he wouldn't take the job himself, thereby putting the customer in a bind. I don't think that's the kind of reputation I would want to cultivate.
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If he doesn't want me to do his work, why should I do anything for him?
This ain't a case I need him.
 
Palmpilot said:
Vindictive much?
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Not vindictive, why would you want to help someone that let their annual lapse and want you to bail them out? The owner put himself in this position. He can just as easily get the other shop to get the ferry permit. Maybe there’s a reason they won’t.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Well, in a way it does not apply. Not in the way you think it does. You cited 91.3 in reference to safe to fly. But that is not where that verbiage exists if you read it. But 91.7 states that... and more.

“91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.”

“91.7 Civil aircraft airworthiness.
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.
(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.”

Pay particular attention to 91.7(a) and think about why you need a SFP. You need it because the plane is not in an airworthy condition. And while 91.7(b) states that the pilot is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight, it also says more. It says the pilot must discontinue the flight if unairworthy conditions occur. This also means that you cannot even begin a flight if unairworthy.

So how then is an unairworthy plane capable of being flown? Only if the A&P or pilot says so?? NO! Only if the FAA says so via a SFP. And where is this authority? It’s in 21.197.

“21.197 Special flight permits.
(a) A special flight permit may be issued for an aircraft that may not currently meet applicable airworthiness requirements but is capable of safe flight, for the following purposes:
(1) Flying the aircraft to a base where repairs, alterations, or maintenance are to be performed, or to a point of storage.”

Now in this part, it mentions that the aircraft though unairworthy, can be flown under a SFP if it is capable of safe flight. But this safe for flight determination is not a PIC one in this context but a determination of the FAA or an A&P if the FAA ASI decides to delegate it. But even if the A&P determines that the plane can be safely flown, it is still the FAA that issues the SFP.

Now I am not diminishing the role of the mechanic in this process as it is a very important part of it. But making that log entry is not the same as issuing or signing the permit.
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Did you loose sight of the Original question ?
Does an A&P sign the permit or not? Am I required to sign it just because I'm the only one around?
 
Paulie said:
Not vindictive, why would you want to help someone that let their annual lapse and want you to bail them out? The owner put himself in this position. He can just as easily get the other shop to get the ferry permit. Maybe there’s a reason they won’t.
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I wasn't talking about your refusal to sign the ferry permit; I was talking about the fact that you suddenly didn't want to do an annual that you apparently were previously willing to do, until you found out that he wanted to have someone else do it. Do you demand that clients give their business to you exclusively, or was there something else the guy did that upset you?
 
bluerooster said:
What if there's a repair station located where it sits right now?
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There was a repair station at KLUK, where my plane used to be hangared. I didn't like the guy, my Skyhawk was a couple weeks out of annual, so I walked over to the FSDO and told them exactly that. Got the permit with no issues.
 
The A&P doesn't sign the permit. He doesn't even sign the application. The PILOT however is required (at least here) to send the logbook page (or whatever) SIGNED by an A&P that indicates the aircraft is safe to make the flight to the FSDO before the permit will be issued.

Around here it goes like this:

FSDO guy emails an application to the owner.
Owner fills it out and sends it back with a scan of the logbook page signed by the mechanic stating it is safe for the flight.
FSDO emails back a PDF with the ferry permit.
Owner prints it out and puts it in the plane and flies.
 
Palmpilot said:
I wasn't talking about your refusal to sign the ferry permit; I was talking about the fact that you suddenly didn't want to do an annual that you apparently were previously willing to do, until you found out that he wanted to have someone else do it. Do you demand that clients give their business to you exclusively, or was there something else the guy did that upset you?
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My customers can go any where they like, And I can refuse service to anyone I like. Pizz me off see what happens.

Some of my customers have been with me well over 30 years, there is a reason for that. :)
 
Tom-D said:
My customers can go any where they like, And I can refuse service to anyone I like. Pizz me off see what happens.
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Were you pizzed off solely because he wanted to go elsewhere for the annual, or was there some other reason?
 
flyingron said:
The A&P doesn't sign the permit. He doesn't even sign the application. The PILOT however is required (at least here) to send the logbook page (or whatever) SIGNED by an A&P that indicates the aircraft is safe to make the flight to the FSDO before the permit will be issued.

Around here it goes like this:

FSDO guy emails an application to the owner.
Owner fills it out and sends it back with a scan of the logbook page signed by the mechanic stating it is safe for the flight.
FSDO emails back a PDF with the ferry permit.
Owner prints it out and puts it in the plane and flies.
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Things sure are different on the east coast. I can have a ferry permit sitting in my email inbox with one 5 minute phone call and without sending the FSDO a single thing.

All the FSDOs here in the Midwest want is to know the reason why the ferry permit is needed and where the plane is at and the destination. That’s simply so they can fill the paperwork out.
 
mondtster said:
Things sure are different on the east coast. I can have a ferry permit sitting in my email inbox with one 5 minute phone call and without sending the FSDO a single thing.

All the FSDOs here in the Midwest want is to know the reason why the ferry permit is needed and where the plane is at and the destination. That’s simply so they can fill the paperwork out.
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Not sure where in the "midwest" this is, or how far back this goes. In 2011 the Detroit FSDO needed a mechanic's signature certifying the plane was safe to fly. Of course, things could be different now.
 
Things changed (at least here). It used to be in the past that the mechanic could get the SFP but now the "operator" needs to do it.

The rules are quite clear. An 8130-6 application MUST be received (though email and other electronic forms are expressly permitted). The FAA must either inspect the aircraft themselves or have the operator get an appropriately certified repair station or mechanic perform the inspection and place the documentation of that inspection in the aircraft records.

In other words for most of us: There must be a log book entry from a mechanic stating that the flight is safe. Technically, nothing requires the FAA to receive a copy of the logbook entry, but it ABSOLUTELY needs to be done.

This is all detailed in chapter 18 of 8130.2J.
 
azure said:
Not sure where in the "midwest" this is, or how far back this goes. In 2011 the Detroit FSDO needed a mechanic's signature certifying the plane was safe to fly. Of course, things could be different now.
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Around here the mechanic’s signature that they’ve inspected the plane (a condition of the special flight permit) comes after the permit is issued and the FSDO never needs to see it. Things have been the same with all three of the FSDOs I’ve dealt with.
 
tspear said:
How do you get a reputation damage?

Tim
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Because, again in my experience, if somebody who is ****ed off enough to take their business elsewhere, any imperfection in your work when they come back is going to be blown way out of proportion and communicated to everybody they know.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Because, again in my experience, if somebody who is ****ed off enough to take their business elsewhere, any imperfection in your work when they come back is going to be blown way out of proportion and communicated to everybody they know.
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Ah, ok. I do not see that (or at least I have not) in my field (IT).

Tim
 
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