Someone needs to learn lesson

Sometimes I wonder if some non instrument rated pilots even know (or care to know) the rules. I got delayed in Iowa last year on the way to Oshkosh and ended up having an interesting discussion with a pilot there who insisted that you only need an IR if you are leaving your local area. "Local IFR" was perfectly legal because how else would he be able to get through the clouds if they were low around his home Class D. He then told me my plan to file an IFR flight plan that routed me to DBQ first and then on in to OSH was ridiculous. "Why wouldn't you just go direct? What's a NOTAM? They can't tell you where to fly!"

Before anyone gets offended - this group is different. All the VFR only pilots on POA know the rules about needing an instrument rating and no one takes undue risk.
 
zaitcev said:
Well, since you asked... For me it was when an F-16 on an instrument plan collided with a 150 in South Carolina in 2015. A very recent affair as you can see. Although, it's not quite what you ask about, because conditions were visual, but the closure rate was such that the pilot of the fighter didn't see the trainer. The one before that was in 1987, when a regional airliner collided with a VFR Mooney over Salt Lake City. The conditions were visual again, but the light was marginal and traffic was difficult to see. It was almost 30 years ago. I presume there were more of the same, I just didn't hear of them.
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So you are saying is that a VFR aircraft operating in VFR-conditions in Class E airspace is a "sky pirate"?
 
aggie06 said:
Before anyone gets offended - this group is different. All the VFR only pilots on POA know the rules about needing an instrument rating and no one takes undue risk.
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I wouldn't say "all," but I do believe that the mere act of regular participation in an aviation discussion forum increases a pilot's chances of being exposed to the rules.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Don't fret too much on the midair collision risk. The sky is much bigger than you give it credit for. There's not that many pirates punching through IMC not talking to anyone nor squawking. Seriously, when was the last time you heard or read of an air pirate colliding with participating IFR traffic?
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I've had it *almost* happen to me. Departing KCAD, IFR, already picked up my clearance (thus, the airspace was cleared for me). Vis about 3/4 mile, overcast 400 feet. I pull onto the runway, line up, set my DG one last time, and a Bonanza goes zooming about 20 feet over my head.

steingar said:
I just looked up every mid air collision in the United States last year. It wasn't hard, there were only 4 of them. None of them occurred at pancake breakfasts, I think there has been one in the whole history of Oshkosh.
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There have been zero mid-airs in the whole history of Oshkosh.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I've had it *almost* happen to me. Departing KCAD, IFR, already picked up my clearance (thus, the airspace was cleared for me). Vis about 3/4 mile, overcast 400 feet. I pull onto the runway, line up, set my DG one last time, and a Bonanza goes zooming about 20 feet over my head.



There have been zero mid-airs in the whole history of Oshkosh.
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There have been several ground collisions, one of them quite spectacular.
 
This guy even had an IR yet still "he did intentionally enter IMC without operating under instrument flight rules. " http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2017/01/mooney-m20j-fatal-accident-occurred.html

Aren't all METARS stored? Pretty easy to compare a flightaware track against a local METAR. And if you find compelling evidence go down to the FSDO. Just not sure if that's really something you want to do. When you see someone roll through a stop or run a red light do you copy down their plate number and call the police? What if you see a drunk guy get in a car? It's an interesting moral situation to find yourself in.
 
Tantalum said:
This guy even had an IR yet still "he did intentionally enter IMC without operating under instrument flight rules. " http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2017/01/mooney-m20j-fatal-accident-occurred.html

Aren't all METARS stored? Pretty easy to compare a flightaware track against a local METAR. And if you find compelling evidence go down to the FSDO. Just not sure if that's really something you want to do. When you see someone roll through a stop or run a red light do you copy down their plate number and call the police? What if you see a drunk guy get in a car? It's an interesting moral situation to find yourself in.
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METARs don't give any information about tops, though, and they are only valid at and in the vicinity of the reporting station. Pretty thin evidence to base a bust on for operating VFR in IMC, even if you have no moral qualms about ratting someone out.
 
azure said:
METARs don't give any information about tops, though, and they are only valid at and in the vicinity of the reporting station. Pretty thin evidence to base a bust on for operating VFR in IMC, even if you have no moral qualms about ratting someone out.
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True, but if you can see that MYF was reporting 2K OVC and Big Bear is reporting 500 OVC but somehow you know your buddy made it there as a VFR only pilot, and has pictures on FB of them cruising above an OVC layer, then you can start to connect the dots. Especially at a club plane where you can see the hobbs time entries in the book and the scheduler

My question is.. what would make you rat them out?
-because it upsets you that you play by the rules and someone else doesn't?
-because they're your best bud and you're afraid they'll hurt themselves?
-because you have an altruistic desire to not see other humans hurt as collateral damage when your buddy eventually has a middar in IMC or takes out himself, his family, and people on the ground

I would say the latter two are best addressed by just talking to the friend person to person.. ultimately it's their life and they're responsible for their actions.. so if you've already voiced your concerns then you've done your part. And if it's the former.. then that's got to be a tough way to go through life.. like that person on here a few weeks ago who wanted to report his CFI to the FSDO because he didn't come with a lesson plan and checked his phone in flight
 
OP here. It’s not about punishment. It’s about seeing a friend not get hurt and putting others at risk. My and a couple of buds have leaned on him hard about it but at the end of the day he’s just used to doing what he is doing. It’s become a joke, the M in MVFR stands for his name. One of the local CFI’s has threatened to report him or pull his liscense. Which is something a CFi can apparently do?? They are more ****ed then me. I’m more disappointed. Guy says he can’t pass written. A cfi I know says he gets very lost on non-precision approaches and nonpublished holds. Never flew with the guy but sounds like a real magenta line guy. I’m on one of those guys that want to see everyone around me elevate, not get by or hide.
 
Tantalum said:
My question is.. what would make you rat them out?
-because it upsets you that you play by the rules and someone else doesn't?
-because they're your best bud and you're afraid they'll hurt themselves?
-because you have an altruistic desire to not see other humans hurt as collateral damage when your buddy eventually has a middar in IMC or takes out himself, his family, and people on the ground

I would say the latter two are best addressed by just talking to the friend person to person.. ultimately it's their life and they're responsible for their actions.. so if you've already voiced your concerns then you've done your part.
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What about "all of the above", plus the fourth and most important reason that you missed?

I sure hope that someone (be it friends, family, CFIs, or the FAA) can get him to quit flying in IMC without a flight plan, for that fourth reason, which is this: Because *I* don't want to be the guy that he runs into!!! Not particularly altruistic of me, but the system only works when people follow the rules, and I'd rather that my family and my plane all come back to the ground gently and in one piece.
 
OP sounds like he's trying to prevent someone from turning themselves into an accident report like this one:

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/12/missing-plane.html
https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20161227X03229&key=1

Accident report quote:
The pilot had a history of disregard for established rules and regulations. The pilot's medical certificate was expired, and his airplane was about 2 months overdue for an annual inspection. He was counseled numerous times by an experienced flight instructor about his unsafe practice of operating the airplane in instrument meteorological conditions without an instrument rating, but he continued to do so over a period of 2 years and again on the accident flight. His contempt for rules and regulations was consistent with an anti-authority attitude, which is hazardous to safe operation of aircraft.
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Killed himself, his girlfriend, and his kid.
KathrynReport.jpg
 
OPhere said:
One of the local CFI’s has threatened to report him or pull his liscense.
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flyingcheesehead said:
*I* don't want to be the guy that he runs into!!!
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overdrive148 said:
OP sounds like he's trying to prevent someone from turning themselves into an accident report like this one:
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If it is actually that serious then perhaps someone should escalate accordingly. As with everything there are various degrees to everything and it can be hard on an internet forum to really get a sense of things.. but if I had a close friend that I actually thought was setting himself up to be the next Kathryn's report victim then I'd collect some data, build a case, talk to the CFIs there, and potentially go to the FSDO. Look at it like an intervention of sorts.. you're not "ratting" him out, you could be saving lives.
 
overdrive148 said:
OP sounds like he's trying to prevent someone from turning themselves into an accident report like this one:

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/12/missing-plane.html
https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20161227X03229&key=1

Accident report quote:


Killed himself, his girlfriend, and his kid.
KathrynReport.jpg
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Here's another such case (although I don't know whether this one had a habit of disregarding regulations):

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...his-ntsb-factual-turbo-lance-dec-2015.103167/

1131572_122115-kgo-price-family-img.jpg
 
Tantalum said:
True, but if you can see that MYF was reporting 2K OVC and Big Bear is reporting 500 OVC but somehow you know your buddy made it there as a VFR only pilot, and has pictures on FB of them cruising above an OVC layer, then you can start to connect the dots. Especially at a club plane where you can see the hobbs time entries in the book and the scheduler
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You can connect the dots, I'm just not sure you could reliably collect enough evidence for the FSDO to make a bust with. You might or might not be able to.
My question is.. what would make you rat them out?
-because it upsets you that you play by the rules and someone else doesn't?
-because they're your best bud and you're afraid they'll hurt themselves?
-because you have an altruistic desire to not see other humans hurt as collateral damage when your buddy eventually has a middar in IMC or takes out himself, his family, and people on the ground
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For me it would be mostly the last two, and (as Kent said) because I don't want them to hit *me* when I'm legally in the clag on an IFR flight plan. The rules are less of a consideration as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't consider it any of my business if someone without the rating was accepting IFR clearances and flying in the system in the clouds, assuming he seemed to be a competent instrument pilot. IMC pirates, i.e. pilots who fly VFR in IMC without talking to anyone, endanger everyone, themselves included.
I would say the latter two are best addressed by just talking to the friend person to person.. ultimately it's their life and they're responsible for their actions.. so if you've already voiced your concerns then you've done your part. And if it's the former.. then that's got to be a tough way to go through life.. like that person on here a few weeks ago who wanted to report his CFI to the FSDO because he didn't come with a lesson plan and checked his phone in flight
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That's a very different case. Maybe that CFI shouldn't be a CFI, but I also think we don't have both sides of the story. An IMC pirate is a potential menace, depending on the type of airspace he's flying in. I agree with having a CTJ talk, but if that fails, and especially if he seems not to care or understand the hazard he is causing, then yes, I would favor alerting the FSDO and discussing my concerns with them, even if I couldn't make a convincing case myself.
 
Tantalum said:
If it is actually that serious then perhaps someone should escalate accordingly. As with everything there are various degrees to everything and it can be hard on an internet forum to really get a sense of things.. but if I had a close friend that I actually thought was setting himself up to be the next Kathryn's report victim then I'd collect some data, build a case, talk to the CFIs there, and potentially go to the FSDO. Look at it like an intervention of sorts.. you're not "ratting" him out, you could be saving lives.
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That's exactly the way I think of it... as an intervention.
 
And then you have the one that @eman1200 posted recently that happened at IPJ, Lincolnton NC. VFR pilot departing into IMC, 1.25 vis, 200' OVC.

I'm giving up trying to understand what pilots think when they do this as they probably weren't thinking at all.
 
as someone that was almost taken out by a 310 vfr in imc I say turn his a... in. I was decending into tulsa with 70 people in the back and atc called "traffic 2 oclock that im not taking to" I responded, "xxx looking for traffic, IMC at this time" a couple of seconds later we get an RA on the guy, we follow the RA and just then see a 310 bust out of the clouds a couple of hundred feet from us. I reported the RA and added " it was a 310 busting out of the clouds". I hope they tracked him and violated him.
 
OP first posted on June 23 and then again on August 1, apparently without taking any real action between those dates. I guess resolving this problem really isn’t that important to him. I wonder how many opportunities that provided the subject pilot to cause harm to himself and others.
 
PaulS said:
The guy is a jerk and the sky is not as big as most think it is. Just about every other flight sometimes more, I need to make an adjustment in my path for another aircraft or be on the lookout for an aircraft either via FF or my own sight. We really need to be alert for traffic. People like your buddy are the reason why the accident rates are so bad for GA, the problem with his behavior is the odds of him taking an innocent with him when he goes.
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There is indeed a Big Sky. I know because they made a license plate about it.
Montana-2008-FLY-THE-BIG-SKY-PLANE-GRAPHIC.jpg
 
I’m not advocating for IMC piracy at all but one analogy I have used to explain the relatively low risk of mid air collisions (before even talking about help from ATC, traffic systems in aircraft and eyes outside the window) is the following:
Start with road collisions, of which there are many thousands every year in the US
Now, get rid of 99.9% of the cars and you’ll cut the accident rate by three orders of magnitude.
Next, add 10,000 times more road surface than we have. In fact, bulldoze everything in the landmass (all buildings, people, houses, pave over the lakes, etc) and pave the entire US and make it one huge road/parking lot with nothing to hit.
Finally, stack another 50 identical full surface of the US roads on top of the base layer.
Oh and remove all speed limits and allow cars to go several hundred miles per hour.
Car to car collisions would be vanishingly small.

That’s pretty close to the big sky we get to fly in.
 
RudyP said:
I’m not advocating for IMC piracy at all but one analogy I have used to explain the relatively low risk of mid air collisions (before even talking about help from ATC, traffic systems in aircraft and eyes outside the window) is the following:
Start with road collisions, of which there are many thousands every year in the US
Now, get rid of 99.9% of the cars and you’ll cut the accident rate by three orders of magnitude.
Next, add 10,000 times more road surface than we have. In fact, bulldoze everything in the landmass (all buildings, people, houses, pave over the lakes, etc) and pave the entire US and make it one huge road/parking lot with nothing to hit.
Finally, stack another 50 identical full surface of the US roads on top of the base layer.
Oh and remove all speed limits and allow cars to go several hundred miles per hour.
Car to car collisions would be vanishingly small.

That’s pretty close to the big sky we get to fly in.
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Now imagine a large McDonalds in the middle of it with no drive thru guidance and I can see where the problems start.
 
RudyP said:
I’m not advocating for IMC piracy at all but one analogy I have used to explain the relatively low risk of mid air collisions (before even talking about help from ATC, traffic systems in aircraft and eyes outside the window) is the following:
Start with road collisions, of which there are many thousands every year in the US
Now, get rid of 99.9% of the cars and you’ll cut the accident rate by three orders of magnitude.
Next, add 10,000 times more road surface than we have. In fact, bulldoze everything in the landmass (all buildings, people, houses, pave over the lakes, etc) and pave the entire US and make it one huge road/parking lot with nothing to hit.
Finally, stack another 50 identical full surface of the US roads on top of the base layer.
Oh and remove all speed limits and allow cars to go several hundred miles per hour.
Car to car collisions would be vanishingly small.

That’s pretty close to the big sky we get to fly in.
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Sky ain’t that big around airports, or many popular areas. I think you’re being willfully ignorant and your analogy is weak at best.
 
You’re from San Diego Rudy, remember the PSA / Cessna 172 midair? Guy blasting through controlled airspace.
 
Tantalum said:
True, but if you can see that MYF was reporting 2K OVC and Big Bear is reporting 500 OVC but somehow you know your buddy made it there as a VFR only pilot, and has pictures on FB of them cruising above an OVC layer, then you can start to connect the dots...
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I don't think this "proves" anything...now if they have pictures on FB of them cruising THROUGH the overcast, that is what I would call "proof". Connecting dots? That's only suspecting them of wrong doing, not proving it.
 
Here is my take away from this, and it's going to torque some people off.
Anyone who gets in a plane should be able to fly 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes in IMC conditions without getting yourself killed, even if you don't have your IR.
Yes I know, flying in hurricanes near Mount Everest, is not a good idea, even if you are the greatest instrument rated pilot in the world. I get it, there will always be some circumstance that no matter who you are, it will kill you.
But I will bet a pile of money that everyone who flies long enough will get into a meteorological situation and the only way out is keep pushing on. Sometimes you just cant turn 180 degrees and escape.
Learn how to fly in weather, before you are forced to fly in weather without knowing how.
 
Shepherd said:
Anyone who gets in a plane should be able to fly 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes in IMC conditions without getting yourself killed, even if you don't have your IR.
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I totally agree with that. I think what annoys people about that is if you have someone up there in the clouds not squawking and zipping along IMC he's actively putting someone else who is on an IR and is up in the clouds at risk. People without IR will inevitably get caught in some IMC if they fly long enough, it happens, and that's why you do some sim instrument time in PPL. BUT, I think it's generally bad judgment if someone is knowingly doing it on purpose, like the OP mentioned

Where I'm on the fence is.. outside of talking to your buddy.. is it really worth going to the FSDO over it. I get the safety concern, but most people aren't phoning the police every time someone rolls through a stop or runs a light
 
OPhere said:
One of the local CFI’s has threatened to report him or pull his liscense. Which is something a CFi can apparently do?? They are more ****ed then me. I’m more disappointed.
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CFI is bluffing.

And does anyone really think this guy would stop flying if his license is suspended.??
 
I should have also said: If you get stuck out there, TELL someone. Contact ATC and let them know.
I am not aware of anyone ever losing their ticket for inadvertently getting caught in weather.
 
Forget the FAA. Tell his wife!

RudyP said:
I’m not advocating for IMC piracy at all but one analogy I have used to explain the relatively low risk of mid air collisions (before even talking about help from ATC, traffic systems in aircraft and eyes outside the window) is the following:
Start with road collisions, of which there are many thousands every year in the US
Now, get rid of 99.9% of the cars and you’ll cut the accident rate by three orders of magnitude.
Next, add 10,000 times more road surface than we have. In fact, bulldoze everything in the landmass (all buildings, people, houses, pave over the lakes, etc) and pave the entire US and make it one huge road/parking lot with nothing to hit.
Finally, stack another 50 identical full surface of the US roads on top of the base layer.
Oh and remove all speed limits and allow cars to go several hundred miles per hour.
Car to car collisions would be vanishingly small.

That’s pretty close to the big sky we get to fly in.
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Meh - Not really. You're making too many invalid assumptions. For example, the "pave the US" one. You're assuming that an airplane is just as likely to be over Big Sky, MT as Chicago. Not so! Same thing with altitudes. There's a lot more airplanes at 5,500 than 13,000, for example.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Forget the FAA. Tell his wife!



Meh - Not really. You're making too many invalid assumptions. For example, the "pave the US" one. You're assuming that an airplane is just as likely to be over Big Sky, MT as Chicago. Not so! Same thing with altitudes. There's a lot more airplanes at 5,500 than 13,000, for example.
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You are taking it way more literally than intended. It’s just meant to open up the minds of those who think nothing of zipping past an oncoming car at a combined closing rate of 120mph, separated by 5 ft while the other driver is probably texting to the amount of space opened up by virtually limitless room in 3 dimensions. It’s an order of magnitudes thing. There are many orders of magnitude in your favor when you compare the risk of midair collision versus ground vehicle collisions.
 
Sac Arrow said:
In theory, one could operate legal IFR without talking to anyone, if one remained entirely in class G airspace.
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For what it's worth, there is at least one NTSB opinion (which was upheld on appeal, I believe) finding that a pilot violated 91.13 because the pilot was in IMC in class G not on an IFR flight plan.
 
PPC1052 said:
For what it's worth, there is at least one NTSB opinion (which was upheld on appeal, I believe) finding that a pilot violated 91.13 because the pilot was in IMC in class G not on an IFR flight plan.
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Procedurally, I don't know how that would work if you were on one. You would have to be cleared to some navigational fix, which wouldn't exist in Class G. They are going to vector you outside of controlled airspace? I don't think so.
 
PPC1052 said:
For what it's worth, there is at least one NTSB opinion (which was upheld on appeal, I believe) finding that a pilot violated 91.13 because the pilot was in IMC in class G not on an IFR flight plan.
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I remember reading that, but I don't think it was one of those oddball mountain-west situations, it was in a pretty congested area and I think what got him was minimum altitude requirements in combination with 91.13 because he really should have been in controlled airspace.
 
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