Solution to GA dying?

saracelica

saracelica

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saracelica
Went out to eat for lunch today. Brought along a "Flying" magazine since I was eating by myself. I had the waitress ask me what I was reading; I showed her and she said "Oh that looks like fun tell me more" I'm not sure if she really was interested (and wanted a better tip) or she never considered it. So maybe more people should be reading the Flying magazines (sure are enough of them in circulation) and advertise it that way.

<Let the opinions come out>
 
saracelica said:
Went out to eat for lunch today. Brought along a "Flying" magazine since I was eating by myself. I had the waitress ask me what I was reading; I showed her and she said "Oh that looks like fun tell me more" I'm not sure if she really was interested (and wanted a better tip) or she never considered it. So maybe more people should be reading the Flying magazines (sure are enough of them in circulation) and advertise it that way.

<Let the opinions come out>
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I sometimes will leave a flying magazine in the seat back pocket of an airliner after I'm done with it. I'll also leave it on the desk in a hotel instead of in the trash. Speaking of hotels, today when I checked in the front desk clerk told me I was the first female pilot she had ever met. :confused:
 
Get more people to be ****ed off by crap FBOs/flight schools. GA has more of a service problem then a recruitment problem.
 
If the solution to GA dying is to be found in print, then GA is in trouble.

As much as I love them, it's tough to say it, but printed newspapers and magazines are a dying business.
 
I had lunch today with the owner of my local Flight School, not FBO. Normal talk turned to the economy in a very busy sandwich shop. He commented that his business, number of active students, student inquiries and returning renters, is up significantly over last year. Also increasing, the number of overseas pilots, European, that rent planes for the week. He kept 3 C172 trainers on the line, the rest of his fleet is gone for the week!
 
ClimbnSink said:
Get more people to be ****ed off by crap FBOs/flight schools. GA has more of a service problem then a recruitment problem.
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Seriously, Greg is onto something. Most flight schools are intimidating, and not geared towards success. They tend to milk students.
 
There is no "one" fix. You'd have to:

1. Fix crappy service. (FBO / Flight Schools)
2. Streamline the FAA certification process. (new and upgrade)
3. Streamline a new fuel certification, preferably no lead.
4. Fix medical certification, specifically class 3, it's pretty useless.
5. Re-establish the FAA as the supreme authority on civilian airspace. (minus military)
6. Offer bounties to universities that invent aerospace manufacture process improvements. (give them a chunk of the patent)
7. Treat non-pilots and newbies in a polite manner, and inform those that don't they aren't helping.


There's a lot more, of course. There's crap manufacturers, government, and pilots all have to do. Compromise required from all.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
MachFly said:
Cheaper fuel would defiantly do the trick.
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Thinking fuel is the primary limiter is worse than tunnel vision, it's wishful thinking. Don't get me wrong, I think we should fast-track a new (preferably) no-lead fuel. That's more because the lead requires special handling, and eliminating it would probably lower costs in the long run.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
No one has mentioned that a new piston single that meets the *capabilities* of the 35 year old aircraft (sorry LSA fans!) costs more than my house.

C'mon. The aging rental fleet is ugly as sin. No one with the means to fly is going to appreciate 1970's upholstery and cracked plastic.

Jump to a Diamond, or a new Cessna, and to break even the flight club/school/FBO will be charging $200/Hr -- that's before the instructor.

It's insane to think aviation will ever return to the "masses" at that price.

Now cue the rabid homebuilders with their "build a plane" comments... which isn't going to save GA either unless you're gonna build five and sell the other four at cost. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
No one has mentioned that a new piston single that meets the *capabilities* of the 35 year old aircraft (sorry LSA fans!) costs more than my house.

C'mon. The aging rental fleet is ugly as sin. No one with the means to fly is going to appreciate 1970's upholstery and cracked plastic.

Jump to a Diamond, or a new Cessna, and to break even the flight club/school/FBO will be charging $200/Hr -- that's before the instructor.

It's insane to think aviation will ever return to the "masses" at that price.

Now cue the rabid homebuilders with their "build a plane" comments... which isn't going to save GA either unless you're gonna build five and sell the other four at cost. ;)
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I thought that fell under streamlining FAA certification? (new and upgrade)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
You hit on another good point Nate. Some of the people I have taken flying in my short time so far as a private pilot marvel at the idea that the airplane is older than I am. They LOVE looking at the Cirrus in the next tie down, but at $230 per hour (and 250 hrs minimum PIC with IR) it's out of my range in both price and rental requirements.
 
I had a great opportunity to give a ride to a local media personality. I was mildly embarrassed about the interior of our aircraft.

At the end of the day, I'd rather give a ride to someone in an old bird than none at all, but this person probably usually enjoyed leather seats in her car, and an interior that didn't smell 35 years old.

It's hard to entice the upper-middle class into something that looks like an AMC Pacer.
 
JesseD said:
Thinking fuel is the primary limiter is worse than tunnel vision, it's wishful thinking. Don't get me wrong, I think we should fast-track a new (preferably) no-lead fuel. That's more because the lead requires special handling, and eliminating it would probably lower costs in the long run.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Yeah un-leaded fuel would be great.
When I started flying the DA42 I was so happy I did not have to deal with lead any more.



How much does a average LSA cost these days? (to rent)
 
NoHeat said:
If the solution to GA dying is to be found in print, then GA is in trouble.

As much as I love them, it's tough to say it, but printed newspapers and magazines are a dying business.
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I read Flying on my iPad.
 
Didn't GA boom when the national 55 mph speed limit was imposed.;)
 
If someone is turned off by old training aircraft, does that person really have a passion for flying?
 
Bob Noel said:
If someone is turned off by old training aircraft, does that person really have a passion for flying?
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Good question.

Are we going to grow aviation through those of us who don't care, or through the public who are all used to at least a Toyota or Honda interior?

I dunno.
 
Bob Noel said:
If someone is turned off by old training aircraft, does that person really have a passion for flying?
Click to expand...

That's the point. We need people that don't necessarily have a "passion for flying" to see it for its transportation abilities, and learn to fly even if they are not obsessed with it like most of us.
 
Bob Noel said:
If someone is turned off by old training aircraft, does that person really have a passion for flying?
Click to expand...
That attitude is the problem.
If someone is turned off by the crappy service at flight schools, does that person really have a passion for flying?
We all made it past the barriers, chance made it easier for some, and commitment is required to become a pilot, but saying they will put up with it if they love it enough is not a solution.
Hey if people really want to fly they can just join the Air Force, if you don't then your passion isn't strong enough and you don't deserve to be a pilot. :rolleyes:
 
I think as much as we blame everything else the problem is money. It just is getting more and more expensive everyday. The number one reason by far 80% of students (from my personal experiance) that drop-out is because the cost is just prohibitive. No one wants to talk about that though because there are so many factors involved that a nar impossible to change. Fuel being the largest single factor. (Fuel does include more than $1/gal of tax though)

<---<^>--->
 
Money is the number one excuse given, but I doubt it is the number one reason.
 
Redo the liability laws so manufacturers don't have to charge so much for new equipment. Why should the manufacturer of a minor part in the aircraft worry about being sued if the plane or pilot fails. GMs cars are $15k. Are new piston singles really worth 20 times that?
I can buy a brand new laptop for $400. Is that new PFD/MFD really worth $30k?
A decent paintjob for that old pinto is $500 at Maaco. Why is it the AVERAGE paintjob on a warrior is $13k?
Why is my 26 year old aircraft engine, REMANED, a $12K option and is still carburated? How come I can't get one FUEL INJECTED and just stick it in?
Make flying less expensive and allow certified aircraft to be field upgraded with better parts and equipment that make them safer.
 
ClimbnSink said:
That attitude is the problem.
If someone is turned off by the crappy service at flight schools, does that person really have a passion for flying?
We all made it past the barriers, chance made it easier for some, and commitment is required to become a pilot, but saying they will put up with it if they love it enough is not a solution.
Hey if people really want to fly they can just join the Air Force, if you don't then your passion isn't strong enough and you don't deserve to be a pilot. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Your type of response, taking something to the absurd, contributes to the difficulty in making any progress on addressing issues.
 
Bob Noel said:
Your type of response, taking something to the absurd, contributes to the difficulty in making any progress on addressing issues.
Click to expand...

:rofl:

Damn. I guess my passion to stop GA dying is not enough to overcome absurdity.
 
In addition to the financial aspects, I think a lot of people just see it as scary, and a crazy thing for the "average" person to do. Media hype, the propensity for the nanny state? Who knows, but for whatever reason, in general, society has become safety obsessed, and GA is not seen as "safe" my many.
 
GA is an artifact of WWII. Those returning from the war and enjoying the subsequent economic boom wanted aircraft. Their children followed in their parents footsteps. But every generation declines.

Add that there are fewer pilots in the military and most airline pilot jobs are now crap and you have a classic downward spiral.

As far as the rest of the suggestions I've read:

Subsidized fuel: What, subsidized airports and ATC isn't good enough?
Tort protection: Aircraft manufacturers already have unprecedented and unparalleled protection against lawsuit that I doubt is constitutional.
Better, cheaper aircraft: Aircraft are built by hand. if someone can figure out how to automate the whole thing maybe they can build a better mousetrap, until then you need a lot of the one thing that continues to do up in price. Labor.
Better FBOs: A funny thing to hear from a crowd that extols the wisdom and efficiency of small business. Doesn't matter anyway. Even if the FBO is inviting, the fence around it isn't.
 
steingar said:
GA is an artifact of WWII. Those returning from the war and enjoying the subsequent economic boom wanted aircraft. Their children followed in their parents footsteps. But every generation declines.

Add that there are fewer pilots in the military and most airline pilot jobs are now crap and you have a classic downward spiral.

As far as the rest of the suggestions I've read:

Subsidized fuel: What, subsidized airports and ATC isn't good enough?
Tort protection: Aircraft manufacturers already have unprecedented and unparalleled protection against lawsuit that I doubt is constitutional.
Better, cheaper aircraft: Aircraft are built by hand. if someone can figure out how to automate the whole thing maybe they can build a better mousetrap, until then you need a lot of the one thing that continues to do up in price. Labor.
Better FBOs: A funny thing to hear from a crowd that extols the wisdom and efficiency of small business. Doesn't matter anyway. Even if the FBO is inviting, the fence around it isn't.
Click to expand...

Yes, this is why a vacuum pump manufacturer can be held liable in a crash caused by structural icing. :rolleyes:
 
EdFred said:
Yes, this is why a vacuum pump manufacturer can be held liable in a crash caused by structural icing. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

We pay taxes, and fees in our 100LL, and airline tickets to support ATC and airport infrastructure. Fuel is exhorbitant, and far from subsidized. 100LL costs have increased at about 8% annually since I started flying, far outpacing inflation for the same period.

While I blame greedy and/or greeving plaintiffs for the frivolous law suits, our populist jury system certainly seems to be geared towards demonizing the manufacturer.
 
Anthony said:
We pay taxes, and fees in our 100LL, and airline tickets to support ATC and airport infrastructure. Fuel is exhorbitant, and far from subsidized. 100LL costs have increased at about 8% annually since I started flying, far outpacing inflation for the same period.

While I blame greedy and/or greeving plaintiffs for the frivolous law suits, our populist jury system certainly seems to be geared towards demonizing the manufacturer.
Click to expand...

My income has not increased in 6 years. We may not be 'making' less but it is worth less and less all the time. It is hidden pretty well and it happens (well used to be) slowly.

<---<^>--->
 
silver-eagle said:
Redo the liability laws so manufacturers don't have to charge so much for new equipment. Why should the manufacturer of a minor part in the aircraft worry about being sued if the plane or pilot fails. GMs cars are $15k. Are new piston singles really worth 20 times that?
I can buy a brand new laptop for $400. Is that new PFD/MFD really worth $30k?
A decent paintjob for that old pinto is $500 at Maaco. Why is it the AVERAGE paintjob on a warrior is $13k?
Why is my 26 year old aircraft engine, REMANED, a $12K option and is still carburated? How come I can't get one FUEL INJECTED and just stick it in?
Make flying less expensive and allow certified aircraft to be field upgraded with better parts and equipment that make them safer.
Click to expand...

You are right about the liability issue. The paint job however? They don't have to strip the Pinto to bare metal.
 
Cost is a factor, but it just keeps pilots from flying more, and probably makes some pilots become inactive. I don't think it keeps the masses from wanting to become pilots. They would spend the $ if they had the motivation. Just look at the enormous amount of money spent on ipads and smartphones every month.

The service/attitude of FBO/flight schools doesn't help, but again I don't think it's a major factor in deterring students. Look at the amount of crap we put up with from almost every company we do business with. "press 1 for English"...

I still think the #1 reason for GA's decline is that flying just isn't seen as being cool any more. Kids (anyone under 30) today have too many other things to capture their attention and excite them.

Kids today have their own cell phones, laptops w/ wireless internet, large screen plasma TVs, tropical vacations, etc. before they hit their teens. How do you convince that segment, when they reach flying age, to spend all their money on an activity that doesn't provide as much excitement as they already have in their lives?

We joke about it here but there is some truth to the fact that it takes quite a bit of studying and quite a bit of money, and there are so many other things that have already captured their attention.

I don't think we'll see an expanding pilot population but we can do things to mitigate our losses. Truly, once the pilot population falls below a certain point we will have lost our ability to provide a united front to keep GA from being kicked around or worse, regulated or legislated out of existence.

There will always be new pilots, although that number is falling. The challenge TODAY is to get inactive pilots back in the air.
 
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