so ready to quit

eman1200

eman1200

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Bro do you even lift
I'm giving it one last try tomorrow morning. roundout and flare will be the reason I quit. or, should I say, going round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round in the pattern, nailing every single aspect of the pattern over and over and over and over and over and over, EXCEPT for the mother bleeping roundout and flare, NEVER getting better at it at all, will simply drive me to drink. don't get me wrong, I haven't done anything dangerous, I just haven't improved at all or made one good solid landing. not acceptable to me to do something over and over, at great expense, and not get better.

frustrating.
 
This sounds familiar...had same problem years ago...solved by not trying too much to flare, just nose up a bit, and here's the crux for the solution: Then do everything you can do to PREVENT the plane from landing. By doing this you will keep the plane going smoothly down the runway while dropping ever so slowly and you will grease the thing every time. I have suggested this to others and they all report that it made the critical difference for them. Try it.
 
eman1200 said:
I'm giving it one last try tomorrow morning. roundout and flare will be the reason I quit. or, should I say, going round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round in the pattern, nailing every single aspect of the pattern over and over and over and over and over and over, EXCEPT for the mother bleeping roundout and flare, NEVER getting better at it at all, will simply drive me to drink. don't get me wrong, I haven't done anything dangerous, I just haven't improved at all or made one good solid landing. not acceptable to me to do something over and over, at great expense, and not get better.

frustrating.
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Yep, frustrating...but don't give up. How tall are you? The last student I had that was struggling finally admitted she couldn't see over the cowl. *slaps forehead* I grabbed a booster cushion, shoved it under her tush and there was an immediate improvement!!

Make sure you're looking far enough down the runway, not just over the nose!
 
Nail the airspeed, flare at the sight picture to which you are accustomed. Do not use throttle, just try for as long as you can, to keep it from touching.

Say you're flying a 172 or a Cherokee, try 70 mph on final, NOT 75.

NAIL the airspeed. Then the challenge is to KEEP IT from landing.

Question: When is the aircraft going to land?
PVT ASEL answer: When it is ready to do so.
Com ASEL answer: When I have communicated to it that it is time to do so.
ATP answer: Right there, at THAT marking.

You might want to try two hours with another instructor. Your guy might be missing something.....
 
Just maintain the correct airspeed, and then hold it off, off, off, off.

It will land on it's own when it is good and ready.

Also try flying the length of the runway (with your CFI) at minimum controllable airspeed, a foot or so off the surface.
 
JohnWF said:
This sounds familiar...had same problem years ago...solved by not trying too much to flare, just nose up a bit, and here's the crux for the solution: Then do everything you can do to PREVENT the plane from landing. By doing this you will keep the plane going smoothly down the runway while dropping ever so slowly and you will grease the thing every time. I have suggested this to others and they all report that it made the critical difference for them. Try it.
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I appreciate the input, and it's not like I haven't seen solid advice in other threads on this forum. In my mind I think I'm doing this, but clearly I'm not.
 
Don't give up yet! Like a stupid math problem, all of the sudden it will make sense. For what you are describing, it sounds like you are missing the landing picture. Once you see it, then landings will become a whole lot easier. Notice I said easier, not easy. Throw in the winds, all bets are off.

I suspect you are not using the two important visual clues needed for landing. Peripheral vision and looking down the length of runway is needed to gauge your height and amount of flare to put yourself in the correct position for landing. Trust me, it will come.
 
LDJones said:
Yep, frustrating...but don't give up. How tall are you? The last student I had that was struggling finally admitted she couldn't see over the cowl. *slaps forehead* I grabbed a booster cushion, shoved it under her tush and there was an immediate improvement!!

Make sure you're looking far enough down the runway, not just over the nose!
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4'22" :)

I find myself looking right over the nose, then after one or two landings I correct myself and look about 1/2 way down the runway, then end up doing something else wrong.
 
JohnWF said:
This sounds familiar...had same problem years ago...solved by not trying too much to flare, just nose up a bit, and here's the crux for the solution: Then do everything you can do to PREVENT the plane from landing. By doing this you will keep the plane going smoothly down the runway while dropping ever so slowly and you will grease the thing every time. I have suggested this to others and they all report that it made the critical difference for them. Try it.
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+1 :D

The best advice is the second post. :yes:

You are trying too hard to land. Try not landing for a while. ;)
 
bbchien said:
You might want to try two hours with another instructor. Your guy might be missing something.....
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THIS!
We deal with this regularly is law enforcement training, when someone has a block that they're stuck at.

Put them with another person, who sees things differently, explains things differently, and just changes the dynamic, and usually the problem evaporated.
People relate to things and people differently. No harm is giving it a try.
 
eman1200 said:
4'22" :)

I find myself looking right over the nose, then after one or two landings I correct myself and look about 1/2 way down the runway, then end up doing something else wrong.
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I suck at landing. My least sucky landings involved me settling into ground effect and keeping the top of the cowling pinned to the horizon through the sink.

YMMV.
 
eman1200 said:
piper Cherokee 140 and 78-80 on final
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Ooh. That's it. Let airspeed down to 70-75 (mph) on final. If you mean knots, you are Wayyyyyyyyyyy to fast.

That whole discussion about the yoke moving the barest amount for the first move on roundout (from before) - most of that'll all go away by deducting 5 knots.
 
yea you're way too fast but no matter how fast you fly the approach, hold it off the runway until it won't stay in the air any longer. attempt to hold altitude at 1-3' AGL for as long as possible
 
No shame in grabbing another instructor when you hit a wall on something. Everybody teaches a different way, and another teaching style or method may help.

And yeah, slow it down a bit on final. Landing is never easy when you're floating down the runway bleeding off airspeed.
 
Not sure if you are serious or just letting off steam. If the latter, okay we are all here for you. If the former, as hard as it may seem do not get frustrated. If you get frustrated it will just take longer.

Some thoughts:

Get a sight picture. When you plane takes off remember that picture in you mind, that is what you are looking for when you land. See how your instructor(s) land. Visualization is the key.

Look past the plane. Look down the runway and not in front of the plane. It helps tremendously.

Nail the numbers. I do not know what you are flying, but if you nail the speeds on final, the plane will almost land itself.

Trim is your best friend. On final trim nose up. As you speed bleeds off, your nose wheel will still be off the ground. You will have to try to not land on your mains first.

Flaps are your second best friend. Use flaps as indicated in your POH, or by your instructor.

Forget about what is inside the plane. Once you have configured your plane in final and have nailed your approach speed, forget about what is happening in the cockpit. Everything you need is outside the windshield. Keep the plane on the center line, and let it float downwards towards the run way.

Remember the force. Once you know you have made the runway, pull throttle to idle. The plane will continue to descend. Do not let go however. Sometimes a small dose of throttle may be necessary to smooth the landing.

Treat your yoke like a baby. Aggressive movements of the yoke will cause your landings to be choppy, and uncomfortable. Once you are ready to flare(remember your sight picture), slowly, very slowly pull back on the yoke. Remember you have trimmed nose up so the nose will naturally want to stay off the ground. Keep on pulling back trying to keep the plane off the ground. The plane will land itself. Once landed keep flying the plane. Keep the yoke up, and the plane will continue to slow.

Do not think. Landing is pretty instinctual for the plane. Like I said it will land itself. Keep the plane flying straight, and on the center line is just like flying straight and level. You do that in the air all the time. This is no different.

Have fun. This is what flying is all about. If it ain't fun something is wrong.

Talk to your instructor. If you have hit the brick wall, and cannot make it over the wall, and your instructor has not been able to help you, it is time for a heart to heart. Maybe it is time to find another instructor for a second opinion. Maybe it is time for you to take a few weeks off and let the frustration become desire to fly again. This flying thing is an incurable disease for most of us. It is an addiction without a treatment.

Have faith. Remember we all have gone through what you have gone through, and we all have figured it out in the end. Some take longer some shorter. It is no big deal. In the end the amount of money you spend on getting your PPL will pale in comparison to the amount of money you spend on flying and will be inconsequential to the rewards you get from flying. So will you.

Read, and review. The internet is full of descriptions on how to land, and videos. Take some time to read and view these things. You may get some pointers that may help it eventually click.

Remember. In the end you will succeed. It is inevitable.

Doug

edit: when I started writing there were no posts. I am number 17. Look at how many people are trying to help you. You have a peanut gallery!
 
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Have your instructor fly the landings.
First landing, look out your side window while your instructor calls out what he is doing. Get the sight picture.
Second landing, look forward off into the distance while your instructor calls out what he is doing. Get the sight picture.
Third landing look back and forth side, front, side, front and combine the sight picture.
Then try to duplicate the sight picture.
 
You might see if your IP can show you a correct landing attitude demonstration. I'm not sure how many civilian IPs will know how to do an LAD properly, but one or two LADs can be extremely helpful in seeing and feeling what is right.
 
In a cherokee at 78 to 80 it is going to want to float. Nail it on 75 and then hold it off , it will settle on just fine. By the way Cherokees do not land they arrive !. They are very hard to grease on every time , drove me nuts for a while when I bought mine. They land smoothest when you carry some power all the way to touchdown but this makes for a longer landing and give sthe crosswind more time to kick your butt. Try putting 50 pounds in the bagage compartment and they will flare better as it moves the CG a little further back. They are a bit nose heavy and it does make a difference. The best landings I have made in mine were at max gross, real squeakers. Keep working at it and it will come.
 
I had a hard time landing the 182 after I flew a Warrior for 80 hours. My CFI took me up and we did stalls. I thought "OK, airwork pretty standard for a checkout." but he said "Look at the sight picture and that is what it will look like when you land. Memorize it." and I did, and it worked. I also realized that in the 182 I was flaring too much for fear of nose wheel bouncing it. So you need to round out and let it glide down the runway JUST A BIT before you flare. There needs to be a space between descent and flare don't just skip that middle part.
 
Extra speed on final makes roundout much more difficult than it should be. Each small yoke movement can (and usually does) result in an over-control in pitch and the resulting path over the ground looks like an oscilloscope image. Slow it down to the speed at which a light tug doesn't cause a balloon and you won't believe the difference.
 
I just went through this exact pain with 172, then PA 28 and now Cirrus. I can now squeak in with all three every time. My secrets (from my instructor):

* Airspeed, airspeed, airspeed. Keep it low. For Cirrus, it's 75 knts on short final, 72 over the runway. Then hold her off and let her settle. Similar for 172 and PA28, except SLOWER.

* Eyes down until flare, then look up to the end of the runway.

Those two did it for me...that and some practice.

Also, forgive yourself and pull yourself back up. We all struggle with something. Landing (at least per my instructor) is the hardest thing we have to master in flying the plane.
 
Doc and Tony are right on the money - of course, they are very good CFI's.

Cherokees will sink if you get them slow but if you're fast they will float or bounce down the runway. Just the way it is. Be on speed and they land beautifully. The oleo's are wonderful compared to the steel legs of a Cezzna. Very forgiving.
 
sorry, 78-80 MPH, which I believe is in the POH and is the speed my instructor is asking me to nail, which I have been doing. of course, as I have the runway made, I slowly pull the power until just before roundout, then it's full idle. IF the plane floats, its not due to my speed but due to what I think are slightly abrupt yoke movements. a bunch of people have made the suggestion of eeeeeaasy yoke movements, I really need to focus more on that. I dunno, trust me people of PoA, I am listening to everything you have to say, I just haven't been able to apply it in this case.
 
Just try it 5 mph slower. Just tell him what you want to do, so he won't have a cow. At full flaps your stall is at 56 knots, so that IS 1.3 Vso.

Or try it with another CFI. :)
 
Are you resting your left elbow securely on the arm-rest? If not, do it now.

eman1200 said:
sorry, 78-80 MPH, which I believe is in the POH and is the speed my instructor is asking me to nail, which I have been doing. of course, as I have the runway made, I slowly pull the power until just before roundout, then it's full idle. IF the plane floats, its not due to my speed but due to what I think are slightly abrupt yoke movements. a bunch of people have made the suggestion of eeeeeaasy yoke movements, I really need to focus more on that. I dunno, trust me people of PoA, I am listening to everything you have to say, I just haven't been able to apply it in this case.
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bbchien said:
Just try it 5 mph slower. Just tell him what you want to do, so he won't have a cow. At full flaps your stall is at 56 knots, so that IS 1.3 Vso.

Or try it with another CFI. :)
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ok, I will mention this tomorrow morning.
 
Background: I'm ready for my checkride. Just knocked out some final practice with my instructor on short/soft field landings.

Here were my eureka moments:

  1. Airspeed management - landing will become infinitely easier if you nail your appropriate speeds. I cannot stress this enough. Sit down with your instructor and talk about the airspeed you should be at on final and short final. If he/she says that speed is 80 MPH (or, God forbid, knots), take a look at the POH and see what the recommended approach speed is, and take the lower end of that range. After this discussion, make a concerted effort in your next patterns to NAIL those speeds. I mean focus! Pitch for that speed and peg it there on final approach. Don't accept almost that speed, or a few knots above that speed, or 5 knots over -- nail it. As you overfly the threshold and pull the power to idle, you can end your focus on the airspeed and prepare for the round-out.
  2. The concept of a "flare," actually even the word "flare," put a picture in my mind that continued to screw me up many hours into training. I much prefer calling it a round-out, because that word (to me) better describes what you should be doing. The word "flare" to me describes a maneuver where you dive for the ground and pull up at the last minute. What you should be doing instead is gently rounding out into ground effect and then holding the airplane off as long as humanly possible.
  3. After the round-out as you level off in ground effect, don't quit flying. I'm sure you're not consciously giving up, but I can tell you that early on in my training, even though I didn't think I was giving up, I was giving up a second or two after leveling off. I was just sort of shutting down, which manifested as a relaxing of back pressure on the yoke, a premature touchdown, and a failure to apply crosswind correction after touchdown. You've got to hold that thing off as long as possible as you look wayyyy down at the end of the runway. (And here is where poor airspeed management gets you. Because if you're too fast, your attempt to hold it off turns into ballooning and excessive floating, giving you ample opportunity to screw up the landing.)
  4. Make a concerted effort to change things if you're screwing up. If landing after landing sucks, you've got to make incremental changes to fix it. Your instructor needs to help with this, and you've got to spend your upwind and crosswind legs thinking about what you could have done better on that last approach, and then DOING something about it.

On my recent final phase check with my school's chief flight instructor, my short field landings sucked. Bad. The next flight with my instructor, I pulled the POH out, refreshed my memory on the short field approach speed, and told myself I would accept nothing less than nailing that speed on final approach. And that's what I did, and my resulting short field landing was described by my instructor as "perfect" (though no landing ever is).

Nail the airspeed, round-out instead of "flare," don't quit in ground effect, and change things if they're not working.

Hope this helps.
 
70-80 is way too wide of a range. aim for 70. you are not at gross weight. please tell me that you at least are approaching with full flaps, right?
 
eman1200 said:
sorry, 78-80 MPH, which I believe is in the POH and is the speed my instructor is asking me to nail, which I have been doing. of course, as I have the runway made, I slowly pull the power until just before roundout, then it's full idle. IF the plane floats, its not due to my speed but due to what I think are slightly abrupt yoke movements. a bunch of people have made the suggestion of eeeeeaasy yoke movements, I really need to focus more on that. I dunno, trust me people of PoA, I am listening to everything you have to say, I just haven't been able to apply it in this case.
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80 mph is still too fast - go out and stall the plane at typical landing weight and full flaps then use 1.3*Vso for your approach speed. I had some trouble with the big stab on the Dakota at first but get it on speed and keep the initial pull gentle and the Cherokee is a puppy.
 
All it takes is one good one and its going to click.

I caught so much hell when I finally did it right in a Cherokee 180, after that it was all down hill.

Flush that negativity down the crapper next time you fly. Fly the numbers like he POH says and just keep holding back, it will all work out!

Your going to laugh about this little hiccup in your training in the future....guaranteed!
 
eman1200 said:
4'22" :)

I find myself looking right over the nose, then after one or two landings I correct myself and look about 1/2 way down the runway, then end up doing something else wrong.
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You should be looking all the way down the runway. Try to level off a foot or two off the surface then hold it off. If you think you are high let it settle and feel for the runway with your butt.
 
Everskyward said:
You should be looking all the way down the runway. Try to level off a foot or two off the surface then hold it off. If you think you are high let it settle and feel for the runway with your butt.
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Snicker, snicker...Mari starts 10 feet up and then works her way down...always on speed and always smoooooooth. Have absolutely no clue how she does it.
 
wabower said:
Are you resting your left elbow securely on the arm-rest? If not, do it now.
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:yeahthat:

Once I eliminated removing my elbow from the arm rest, everything clicked including proper speeds, proper sight picture, and transitioning from descent, to a short level glide at 2-4 AGL, to a slow pull from the elbow and wrist (no shoulder!) and I was landing the Warrior and now the C182 just right.
 
I had a similar problem as well. What helped me was starting my flare sooner but more gradual. Start your flare higher off the ground, but only very slightly. then as the plane gets closer to the runway just keep adjusting back, back back until she sits down. you cant give up now, your too deep in the hole already to give up. $$$$ :)
 
Jthamilton said:
All it takes is one good one and its going to click. ......Your going to laugh about this little hiccup in your training in the future....guaranteed!
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yup, my instructor says once it clicks I'll just get it. well, several grand later, it hasn't clicked.

watch, it'll click tomorrow and I'll solo, then I'll feel bad about this post. but right now I'm just ticked.
 
I would strongly consider riding with a different instructor. I bet your not far off but are repeating the same mistakes each time. Although its not all about the numbers, its all about the numbers!

Lots of great advice has been mentioned and not one of the helpful pilots greased the concept of landing on the first or second try! :no:

Keep your head up and good luck.
 
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