Small plane lands on Long Island’s Southern State Parkway

He uses a UAT for ADS-B out. A lot less coverage for them, plus the ability to turn on Anonymous mode.

Never mind, wrong plane.
 
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If I was investigating these ‘engine failures’, early on the list would be fuel quantity & where the tank selector is at.
 
Racerx said:
Crash plane is all white. N33661 is not..

N33667

Accident Piper PA-28-180 Cherokee Archer N33667, Tuesday 20 February 2024

The student pilot in the left seat and his instructor in the right seat were preparing for a local flight. They estimated that there were about 30 gallons of fuel on board prior to depart...
aviation-safety.net
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Thanks. #'s weren't very legible in the news video.
Pretty wild that they're both PA-28-180's with identical N #'s save for the last digit...

sourdough44 said:
early on the list would be fuel quantity & where the tank selector is at.
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Flight school, out of fuel would be inexcusable. Unless the '75 is different than the '69 I've flown the fuel selector is buried down low forward of the left seat. The instructor I flew with on that plane had me set a timer to remind me to switch tanks. That is the strangest ADS-B data I've ever seen...225 mph in a Cherokee? That's 50 mph over Vne and it couldn't do that unless it was in a dive and didn't have an unplanned disassembly. Then near stall speed at the nearly the same altitude a few minutes later.
 
tobnpr said:
Thanks. #'s weren't very legible in the news video.
Pretty wild that they're both PA-28-180's with identical N #'s save for the last digit...


Flight school, out of fuel would be inexcusable. Unless the '75 is different than the '69 I've flown the fuel selector is buried down low forward of the left seat. The instructor I flew with on that plane had me set a timer to remind me to switch tanks. That is the strangest ADS-B data I've ever seen...225 mph in a Cherokee? That's 50 mph over Vne and it couldn't do that unless it was in a dive and didn't have an unplanned disassembly. Then near stall speed at the nearly the same altitude a few minutes later.
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500 ft agl for much of the flight, too. Nassau county is “other than congested”?
 
I suspect a transponder / ADS-B out issue. If you look at the track logs there is missing data in a lot of entries, also momentary spikes in speed that are not really possible.
 
Final is out: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/193824/pdf

Looks like they they never switched tanks and ran one dry.

While the report blamed the student, I think it should all be on the CFI. He could see the selector's position and the fuel gauges, too.

An examination of the wreckage by Federal Aviation Administration inspectors revealed substantial damage to the right wing. The fuel tank selector handle, which was located near the student pilot’s left leg, was found in the LEFT tank position. The left wing fuel tank was uncompromised and contained about ½ gallon of fuel. Although the flight instructor stated that he reminded the student several times to switch tanks, the student did not recall ever switching tanks during the flight. The pilots reported that there were no preaccident mechanical malfunctions or failures with the airplane that would have precluded normal operation.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Final is out: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/193824/pdf

Looks like they they never switched tanks and ran one dry.

While the report blamed the student, I think it should all be on the CFI. He could see the selector's position and the fuel gauges, too.

An examination of the wreckage by Federal Aviation Administration inspectors revealed substantial damage to the right wing. The fuel tank selector handle, which was located near the student pilot’s left leg, was found in the LEFT tank position. The left wing fuel tank was uncompromised and contained about ½ gallon of fuel. Although the flight instructor stated that he reminded the student several times to switch tanks, the student did not recall ever switching tanks during the flight. The pilots reported that there were no preaccident mechanical malfunctions or failures with the airplane that would have precluded normal operation.
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I'm gonna take a leap of logic and conclude the CFI is being, uh, less than truthful.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Final is out: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/193824/pdf

Looks like they they never switched tanks and ran one dry.

While the report blamed the student, I think it should all be on the CFI. He could see the selector's position and the fuel gauges, too.

An examination of the wreckage by Federal Aviation Administration inspectors revealed substantial damage to the right wing. The fuel tank selector handle, which was located near the student pilot’s left leg, was found in the LEFT tank position. The left wing fuel tank was uncompromised and contained about ½ gallon of fuel. Although the flight instructor stated that he reminded the student several times to switch tanks, the student did not recall ever switching tanks during the flight. The pilots reported that there were no preaccident mechanical malfunctions or failures with the airplane that would have precluded normal operation.
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Is that record on having a final published?
 
Bacho said:
Is that record on having a final published?
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Looks like it. Also a record of how wrong they could be, blaming a student pilot that wasn't PIC for the flight. They pretty much blamed a passenger for crashing the plane.
 
Wahh, I mean the fuel gauges while not precise should still show you something?
 
AV8R_87 said:
Looks like it. Also a record of how wrong they could be, blaming a student pilot that wasn't PIC for the flight. They pretty much blamed a passenger for crashing the plane.
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I think you’re confusing responsibility (blame) with cause (action). A passenger (or student pilot) can certainly cause an aircraft accident even though the PIC retains responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight. In this accident, it was the student pilot’s omission of operating an aircraft system control accessible only to the student pilot. What the NTSB leaves vague is whether the instructor directed the student pilot to change tanks and whether the student pilot remembers being directed to switch tanks. Also omitted is any reference to use or failure to use checklists (i.e., switch to fullest tank before landing).

Curious to hear from any small Piper CFIs as to how you handle verification of fuel tank selector given its position. Can you see it from the right seat? If blocked visually, do you ask the student to move their leg so you can verify position?
 
AquaLand said:
I think you’re confusing responsibility (blame) with cause (action)
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§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.​


(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

Based on that rule, I will disagree with you. The CFI was responsible for the proper operation of the aircraft, his inaction caused the fuel starvation.

While it's not possible to to switch tanks from the right seat (without some desperate gymnastics), the CFI can see the fuel gauges and decide if an emergency landing is in order.
 
AquaLand said:
I think you’re confusing responsibility (blame) with cause (action). A passenger (or student pilot) can certainly cause an aircraft accident even though the PIC retains responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight. In this accident, it was the student pilot’s omission of operating an aircraft system control accessible only to the student pilot. What the NTSB leaves vague is whether the instructor directed the student pilot to change tanks and whether the student pilot remembers being directed to switch tanks. Also omitted is any reference to use or failure to use checklists (i.e., switch to fullest tank before landing).

Curious to hear from any small Piper CFIs as to how you handle verification of fuel tank selector given its position. Can you see it from the right seat? If blocked visually, do you ask the student to move their leg so you can verify position?
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Yes it’s visible, but also when I tell a student to switch the tank, I actually watch them do it. Kind of like telling them to change frequencies, you can’t just assume they did it without looking.
 
Additional info from docket:

Student pilot was the owner of the accident aircraft.

The Narrative History of Flight for the NTSB 6120.1 is written entirely in passive voice, which makes attriibutinig specific actions to either student or instructor impossible.

According to FAA interview of the instructor: (1) engine started on right tank and shifted to left prior to takeoff, (2) instructor used his iPad to remind student to shift tanks every 30 minutes during flight, (3) tanks were shifted 4 times during flight based on instructor’s direction to student, (4) instructor did not verify if student moved fuel selector, (5) when asked by the FAA interviewer if instructor knew of any scenario that would cause left tank to be empty, instructor did not answer the question.

According to FAA interview of the student: (1) engine started on right tank, shifted to left during run-up, (2) during a practice engine out, student simulated shifting tanks, (3) student did not remember shifting fuel tanks during flight, ((3) student stated fuel was normally managed using his cell phone timer/alarm to remind him to shift tanks at 30-minute intervals but he doesn’t remember doing this during the accident flight, (4) student stated JPI EDM 830 showed “12 REM” toward end of flight (showed 11.3 post-accident).
 
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